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Will EG Nodes eat AUMs’ lunch?
Can’t help but notice that the forthcoming host app EG Nodes https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/eg-nodes/id6466639463 foregrounds being able to automate All The Things, and is already in the hands of a few people here, I believe?
At this point I have invested several years in evolving a streamlined workflow for my noises inside AUM, but I am now frequently butting up against the lack of basic automation inside it in trying to take my sort-of live mixes to the next level. Despite boring poor old @j_liljedahl rigid on this point, and receiving a few half-hopeful responses in return, going into 2024 AUM remains automationless.
So, my question for any of the beta testers for EG Nodes: is it time for me to bid a fond farewell to AUM and learn a whole new EG Nodes based workflow? Specifically, does it have an easy channel record/ tape player AUM equivalent? Most of my stuff works on iteratively recording audio loops then messing with them. Is this something EG Nodes can easily accommodate?
If not, a direct feature request/question to @ElliottGarage : Is there an in app way to record audio in EG Nodes, a la the AUM Tape Player? 99% of what I do currently is recording the audio output of an instrument on a channel in AUM, turning it into a Tape Player file, then feeding that file, speeded up or slowed down, back through another channel. Will there be a similar audio potential inside EG Nodes, or is this just all about the MIDI?
Comments
This sounds like a job for Drambo. Great host, all the automation you could ever want, and records tracks to audio.
I wouldn't say EG Nodes it will eat AUM for lunch when it comes to audio and midi-routing/filtering etc.
EG Nodes can already record the entire performance and share it but as far as I know it can't yet do per track/stem recording.
Things might change at a later point though and I would not be surprised if we see an audio/loop node popping up with the option to select any of the nodes as an input for recording.
Sure, it would be nice to have 'everything' in 'every app' it's good to remember that both apps are 'one person sweatshops' and not huge companies with infinite resources.
While I'm not a fan of LoopyPro but once it gets if it gets automation and midi-loops with editing it will be pretty hard to beat when it comes to the overall feature set.
My prediction is yes
Revised to say “At the moment I feel like they will be each other’s lunch 😅”
it will be another tool for some. We are all over the place in what we want/use in terms of workflow that it's hard to imagine anything eating another thing for lunch.
Hi @Svetlovska! AUM is a great app, probably one of my fav on iOS, and it's difficut to fight against it, considering all the years of development it has.
Anyway I find the apps so different (and complementary - you can f.e. host EG Nodes in AUM as a sequencer and parameter automation driver) that I never thought to be in that race field.
EG Nodes peculiarity is the different type of builtin midi generator (note/chords, arpeggio,sequencer,rhythm,piano roll, generative and more will come in the future), with scenes and automation....a sequencer first, and secondary a host.
About recording a node you can already do it using a sampler/recorder app in the effect slot; I tried using my other app sEGments and it works great. I'm also planning to add a traditional audio player/recorder node...my TODO list is growing fast
Mmmm, I'm not sure. Popularity of tools waxes and wanes, but AUM is certainly popular and it certainly 'won' against the most similar host, apeMatrix. It ate ape's lunch, no question, and it in turn could easily be eaten if the right tool comes along. It is VERY hard to convince ppl to learn a new DAW / host, and when ppl get comfy in one environment, they need a good incentive to swap it for another. But it does happen. AUM was good enough that many ppl switched from whatever they were using before to using AUM as their main tool. Or they just started with aum and liked it enough to stick with it. But great as AUM is, it's very easy for me to imagine sth else coming along and eating a bunch of its market share. Whether Nodes will do that or not I don't know yet, but let's see, it's certainly possible.
@ElliottGarage : Hi, and thanks for responding so quickly. What you say heartens me on two counts. Firstly, because you have a dedicated audio recording node on your roadmap of future development; secondly because I begin at least to see a partial workaround via using EG Nodes inside AUM.
I use long form (many minutes long) varispeeded free running or synced wav loops, playing in File Players, as the core of my AUM based workflow. All AUM needs to make it perfect for me is a way to record and edit MIDI control over the faders, pan pots, eq and mute buttons inside AUM, so that I can go back into the recording of a live mixdown, punch in, tweak a setting or a short automation of one of these, and punch out, iteratively. So if I fluff a channel mute, or a volume fade up on a single AUM channel during my live mixdown to AudioShare, I don’t have to scrap the whole attempt and do it all again.
The lack of such at present makes the commiting of my stuff to master, especially on longer pieces, a bit of a white knuckle experience, and artificially limits what I would like to sculpt out of, typically, the audio of 8, 12, 16 channels of continuously running File Player wavs alongside assorted sequencer driven synths. It’s just too many channels to get to manually across the AUM interface in one go, so I find myself compromising on the subtlety and possible movement of the final thing by commiting to a handful of sub mixes as separate AUM sessions first instead, just to physically handle the mix and because there is no way to edit mistakes.
That automation-with-editing is literally the only thing I need of automation in AUM, and it sounds like EG Nodes gets me at least to the record side of that equation.
But can it handle the editing/do over side too?
Want to agree that aum, while quick to get things initially setup, lacks depth. And after 2 years using it, I realize the dev is just not interested in making it better. Just a few bug fixes. Which is unfortunate seeing as theres a lot of potential for improvement.
But it seems the way of software dev. Make product once, a few fixes, the end. Only a few devs add features later, iap or not. It doesnt seem like its the effort involved, it seems more like a lack of interest.
There also doesnt seem like there are any open source projects for ios. There is audiokit, but thats a library. There are no OSS ios synths or mixers or effects, right? I noticed byod is on github and Faust has a faust2ios tool. . Anyway didnt mean to sidetrack
Maybe also a lack of money! 🤑 (case in point: even the arguably most prominent indie iOS music app developer can't make a living from his very prominent apps.)
I'd consider open-sourcing Xequence, including its entire NanoStudio-esque audio engine (full mixer, tons of effects, modular synth), but I'd only consider losing the intellectual property for a good 5-digit Kickstarter (or whatever) sum! 🤑 2.0
I've never been able to make AUM a part of my production process. Too many obscure symbols in the UI and the workflow just doesn't make sense to me. EG Nodes does look more "transparent" in function to me and seems to make a lot more sense visually.
I would love to see EG Node dancing in AUM... The Movie...
Nice...
You could use Nodes’ recordable x-y pads to automate AUM!
Some things you may not realize: AUM is developed by a single individual - an individual who needs to make a living just like the rest of us. iOS apps don't bring in enough income to work on them full time. The way the App Store is structured makes it very difficult to charge for upgrades like you see in desktop apps.
You're dead wrong in your assumption that the developer is "just not interested in making it better". If you had seen interactions with the developer around here and elsewhere you would see that. Desire, and having the available time to make them happen, are vastly different things.
I couldn't disagree more with your assumption about interest vs. effort. I also don't know why an app needs to continually add features to seem valid to some people. Some apps are just "finished". There's nothing wrong with that.
One explanation for that is the iOS developer fee of $99 per year. Also there can be difficulties of complying with App Store license restrictions. Projects can't incorporate code with incompatible license types such as GPL. Also, anyone can compile an Open Source project on desktop platforms, but it doesn't work that way for iOS. An app has to be published to the App Store by a developer with a paid account (or TestFlight) for people to be able to load it. I don't want to go to the lengths of writing needed to describe the impact of that on open source mechanics but it's a major reason there are no open source projects.
That said, there are open source libraries and even whole app examples. You just need to know where to look. Check out Cem Olcay, Geert Bevern and Sonosaurus for example.
Its a great proposition! But since you say it’s difficult to earn money with these apps, will a kickstarter be more lucrative? Maybe so?
And thinking about the money problem.. in my mind it is easier to commit to a sponsorship of a project than a subscription. And even easier to commit to a project where the account books are public. Because in theory what people desire is trust and accountability (i am speaking generally, not specifically about your work).
Its truly astounding how much money gets raised by these kickstarters though, so that may indeed be a great method. But the only way they gain momentum is 1 popularity 2 vision. If the vision can be sold to many people, it will gain its popularity, right?
I believe in you SSystems - I hope you pursue this idea and open it up for discussion and opinions and get the momentum needed to create a successful kickstarter!
Xequence is an amazing feat, and I feel like the secret of your success is your laser focus on MIDI sequencing excellence.
But, did somebody say “sound engine?“
In the same way that @LinearLineman has miraculously created 800+ beautiful tracks with Cubasis despite all of its failings, I’ve managed to produce 117 tracks with AUM this year despite it not being a ‘proper’ DAW 🤨
AUM works fine for me and my few dealings with @j_liljedahl this year have been nothing but positive.
Personally I don’t feel the need to change although I accept that others do.
What I do find a bit tiring is the ‘this is better than that’ mentality that seems to pop up now and again. There are few absolutes in the world of music making, 99.9% of it being personal opinion (that’s a figure I’ve just made up btw).
We should just be thankful for all of the wonderful apps that the developers create for us and be less obsessed about comparing one with the other…
Sorry, rant over 🤟
Hey, good points. Looks like I have successfully sidetracked this discussion now also!
The only thing you said that bothers me is the idea of an app being ‘finished’ when the dev thinks so. Because when I invest my time in a piece of sw, I have made a commitment to it also.
Someone can say they believe the mona lisa is finished, but others have a right to disagree. Maybe there is a van gogh out there who would like to make a revision?
I always add a few bars to Für Elise. Nothing is sacred :-)
Looking forward to EG Nodes. Looks like it will complement AUM and wishing for one tool that does it all isn't really in the spirit of making music on iOS.
I'm not sure, but while there's a little feature update coming soon, I doubt there will be significant development in the near future apart from fixes for new devices / iOS versions. That's why the open-sourcing idea -- I just don't want the whole project and product to silently rot away on a random Irish SSD 🤦 but I do need to recoup at least some potential future income. That's why the Kickstarter. The mid 5-digit sum is just a total stab in the dark.
Totally agree.
I'm really bad at people and marketing, unfortunately, so I have no idea! I've actually started a brochure for this a few months ago, that's how seriously I considered it!
Maybe let's keep it out of this thread for now. But anyone can feel free to start a separate one about the topic 🥳
Yes sorry, there's your laser focus lasering out the window! 😉
Looks like a BAM and LK competitor?
On my iPad, I don't see it replacing either apeMatrix (for fun) or AUM (for everything else)
Very hard to say. Like you I’m very much a consistent user of AUM. It’s a huge part of my workflow. But Nodes provides a different way of producing and I find myself making things different there. So I see them occupying 2 different spots for me with neither replacing the other. In fact, Nodes and AUM make for a pretty cool pair.
Hard to say. I could see myself using both still.
There are a few devs doing iOS apps full time though - Cem Olcay and Paul from 4Pockets definitely are, and there might be others. Certainly though it is extemely hard to make a living from making iOS music apps, impossible for most. I have no idea whether the AUM dev is making a living from it but he could be. AUM is easily one of the most successful apps on the platform and is almost always in or near the top ten music apps. Whether that gives him enough to live in his country and meet his own personal needs, I don't know. And if it is, there's definitely no guarantee AUM will remain successful.
Mona lisa needs a hat. It’s been a feature request for centuries. It should only be a 30 minute job for any decent artist. They should fire Leonardo and hire some AI coder.
😉
Leo only paints in his spare time . You think he can make a living off those little doodles?
“Mona needs a hat” is now my go to phrase for app feature creep
EG Nodes looks like a really nice AU host-sequencer with a lot of possibilities from day one. But for me, it won't even touch AUM place. Maybe Nodes will find its place in the AUM, but I don’t know even that yet.
I like a variety of choices, so anyone can fix their unique workflow to make that creative mojo free and productive.
Nodes is a fantastic app, hats off to Elliott! 🤩
Nodes is great
AUM is great
Nothing needs to be better than the other, they both exist and allow everyone options to make great music
Embrace and enjoy