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Comments
('scuse my British irony kicking in here... ^^^^ but there is a point to be made... :-) )
Good, almost entirely civil, intelligent discussion. Don't underestimate the value and quality of this forum.
;-) @JohnnyGoodyear ^^^
@1P18 said:
I'm of the mind that this is a big part of the problem. Major version changes every year seem a bit much when you consider the rapid growth of users, apps, etc. (aka the "ecosystem"...yuck!). A large number of devs just don't have the time/resources to dedicate to it in order to meet the "deadline" or user's expectations.
There is a fair amount of talk in the forum about the app economy. Here is an eye-opening look at the numbers: http://techcrunch.com/2014/07/21/the-majority-of-todays-app-businesses-are-not-sustainable/
Also...
Okay, so your MonoPoly is broken... you were using it at a gig just last night and it was working fine, today you plug the thing in and the damn synth won't turn on. What a drag, right?! You just bought the thing, and you're sure it's got to be something on Korgs end.
So you send it in, you don't even have a warranty, but they agree to take a look and see if they can fix it. A few weeks go by, and you think, "hey that's a little odd, they should have said something to me by now." So you call them. They hem and haw a bit and say, "we've never seen anything like this, it might take us a while to figure it out. Looks like your all of your connections somehow got rewired."
What would you do? Accuse them of having their heads up their asses? Call them every day until they figured it out? Or like most musicians, you'd probably say, "that sucks, but what can I do, guess I'll wait". Happens all the time with hardware, I got the run around for over two months when I took a guitar in simply to install a fricking bigsby.
It's unfortunate you can't just borrow your friends ipad when yours breaks to play a gig like you would a synth or guitar, but this is software. The machines themselves are fragile, and appearantly when it comes to audio at least, the OS is too. It's fine to be angry about it, but you gotta move on and find something to get the job done in the meantime.
Not trying to go off-topic, but that is a very nice fire.
And if part of one's business is dependent on it @CSwinn? I have 6 iPads - none of them are working like they were promised to now (OK - only 5 are used for current AB music setups).
Imagine I had six MonoPoly's that I kept because (analogy failing here - I know - but, play along ;-) ) I know that MonoPoly's are fragile. So, if one doesn't work, at least I know that one of the other 5 will. Nope - none of them do now - had the upgrade done to all of them.
Like most business owners I say - that's wrong - and someone is responsible and I need it fixed to continue to operate that part of my business. I don't just shut down part of my business...
Now, being a Brit I don't say "WHO DO I SUE????!?!?! - Quick phone my lawyer!" :-) but I do say - "How do I find out who is responsible and try and light the appropriate fire under them to get it fixed so I don't lose money in that part of my business?" (More than just making music or playing live gigs - that was an analogy - although I was alluding to something real).
Maybe that nice looking fire above will do for lighting under someone :-D
See there's a difference between expectations one knows about and those one doesn't. Take TF7 as an example: Pier very nicely provided some performance tweaks in the program and made it known that certain features required a newer CPU. Could I run the expanded algorithms without spiking the CPU on a mini original? No - and the promise wasn't given I could. I accept that. That's nicely laid out and everyone's happy. Same for some advanced CPU-intensive features of other apps too. In fact, I recently purchased a mini Retina (just pre iOS 8 to be sure to get 7.1.2) in part in order to use more FabFilter plugins concurrently - as well as to have a nicely functioning more modern 7.1.2 device that was working to the best of its ability. Nope - now not.
I accept the limitations where they are well known. Here we have an unsolved mystery. Good for firesides and dark nights...
Actually - to take that a tad further - what I do in the above analogy is uninstall the MIDI kit and the MonoPoly now does polyphony again. For a while. Then stops. And it was only a plugin kit - no soldering... ;-) So - what - did it fry something? How could it? Opto isolated. (No shared libraries). But - nope the MonoPoly isn't working like it used to... Maybe... Maybe I shouldn't have opened the ivory tower / walled garden / case ? ;-)
But a developers business is dependent on your iPads working as well. Just like Korg wants their MonoPolys to play nicely for you, app developers want their products to work too. I'm sure no one is more upset about this headache of an OS update than they are.
I understand trying to light a fire to out "who" is responsible, but I think in this case it's a moot point. I'm sure Apple plays the biggest part in this, I doubt many music app developers were clammoring for a new OS, but I think a great majority of it is just part of the birthing pains of a new platform for music creation.
I'm very sorry to hear your business is suffering, truly that is awful and I don't mean to disrespect that. But I think it's just a part of being caught in the iOS 8 shitstorm like so many other people right now who are reliant in these products working. Now that you know that this is an unreliable platform, maybe a change in direction or an addition to your business is in order. I'm sure many developers are thinking the same thing.
I agree @CSwinn - it's hard for the devs here - very hard - and no extra income for fixing things.
Thank you for your thoughts. My business isn't presently suffering a $ loss related to this BUT it might amount to that effectively - in terms of being able to function as expected / desired and do some appropriate iOS music-related work - by the end of the month if this doesn't get fixed (or at least in November). Had this happened earlier in the year too - I would have missed some contract deadlines trying to figure things out.
If I'm Mr Utz - stopping selling chips and starting selling shoelaces isn't really practical either :-) I might be able to do pretzels - but even then, I'd have to retool my operation.
Cheers Mr Utz. Hopefully soon enough you'll be able to sell chips and pretzels, as well as iPad produced music.
:-) @CSwinn
@papertiger great op, I agree with most of it, although Android may be awhile. I bet things get fixed by then, competition is a strong motivator.
On the topic of "IOS music" from the title and its niche market in music sales...wth, when did it ever matter what computer you used to make those sounds as long as it makes its intended mark. Much respect to those who demonstrate the usage and features of apps and gear, but I have to wonder about the value of the label "ios music" and the effort to capitalize on the term. Ipad changed the way I make/record music and I have come across some great music being made and even have made some acquaintances due to this device, i'd say its revolutionizing music in general, but it is but one tool, a great one, but just one. Unless you put everything into it, and it becomes everything, in which case you could have used mi Ma's advise about eggs.
This is a consumers market where we are the musicians and the producers and the distributors and the brand, yet it is the developers who are the rockstars and we follow them as fans and as customers, cheering and expecting at the same time. And as with all great rockstars they give credit back to the fans/customer. You get what you paid for and a booing crowd gets no encore.
Somebody throw another log on the fire please and thank you.
"More and more I'm thinking that I need to just get over it and cull my music apps down to a few that work well and consistently, awesomeness of those apps that don't be damned..."
This is what I've done. 4 or 5 core apps that I (can) rely on and I know inside out. And don't take up time fiddling around with to get to work or connect.
Then any other app I want a particular sound from, I just sample in a very controlled way (either using its internal record / ACP or using audiobus).
Hooking up lots of things with Midi, trying to get different apps to sync start, complex audiobus chains - all generally passion killers for me...
On the topic of the thread... Just 2 points.
I've not personally had one single issue (although I know others have). I've stuck with iOS7 because of the warnings. I was updating apps originally, but then I stopped (which is a very slight inconvienence if there are new features I'd like). I've not had any issues using audiobus with either the updAted or not updated apps.
Personally I'm amazed that things work as well as they do on iOS. I mean the whole idea of having a bunch of applications (made by totally different devs) sellotaped together all working in perfect harmony in such an interconnected, live, time critical and complex way is pretty nuts. On a computer: try getting your keynote presentation to look how it should when saved to PowerPoint, try converting a complicated excel doc to google docs, see how nice your word doc looks in pages or open office. People on outlook still moan they can't see attached images I send them from Mac Mail!
So for me, the tons of different apps hooked together approach is never going to be ideal - and can only go so far. Surely at some point the VST/plugin model (where everything is inside one master app, like Auria has started), is going to be needed. The standards are much more strictly set out, and the master app generally governs them I.e. a few DAWs that have full time dev teams. Plus it makes workflow an awful lot easier. Perhaps audiobus can morph into this VST-type standard for iOS host DAWs and compliant client apps?
Hi guys!
Hello all
Thanks for the thread so far. I enjoyed reading everything although please don't give me a quiz on it all :-)
I am wondering what I could add to this thread.
Right now I have lost trust in the IOS platform for music. What used to just work might or might not now.
Frankly, I just don't know what to update and what not to update. Wait or take the leap? I used to be right on top of updates. I rarely had a red badge for my apps or for IOS. (I do update manually). Now I have many updates waiting and some I can't even see because I am still on 7.1.2.
I read this forum and blogs and posts on Facebook groups. I am more confused than ever. I don't update my apps through iTunes on my computer. I can't be bothered. Therefore I can't roll back versions. Maybe I should have but I got caught with my pants down. Its too late for me to do that now, I think.
I don't even know if I should upgrade to the latest version of AudioBus on my iPad. I've done some reading and asked questions online but I still don't see a definitive answer.
I am a music hobbyist. Music is my salvation, my relaxation, my meditation. I used to take joy in sitting down with the iPad and experimenting and creating something new. My creative spark is being challenged by technology. I don't know if what worked before will work now.
I don't have the patience to remember whether airplane mode is on or off. And what if I forgot...what then?
And now in two days new iPads will most likely be announced. I don't care how fast the processor is or how much operating RAM it has. They will come with IOS 8 installed. Until some of these other issues are addressed I won't even consider buying a new one.
I hope this all gets resolved soon so I can go back to just creating and expressing joy like I used to with new technology getting in the way.
Moving to iOS8 has not stopped me making music in any way whatsoever. A few apps stopped working, but the overwhelming majority are OK. Others will either be updated or not in the future. Time moves on and things change. I personally have zero regrets about updating.
I've made choices. I chose to purchase the iMS-20 and iPolysix apps rather than their desktop counterparts - for cost, portability and ease of integration with other apps on iOS. So, yes, for some apps I could choose a different platform. Or buy a hardware version.
I use Animoog because it is unique.
I use iVCS3 because, well, frankly, I can't afford $13,000 to buy a real one.
I use all of these because of the sounds they make and because that's the kind of music I desire to work with. I can't substitute those with other apps. It would be different music. Can't cull them down - would mean not making the same music. Same with Cube Synth, Galileo, Magellan, Nave, Earhoof - just picked a few off my screen.
Some of these apps occupy a unique aural space / creative zone that simply isn't filled by apps on other platforms, so, yes, in this case, platform matters because these apps only exist on iOS. I can't play guitar if I'm given a violin. I can't play tuba if I'm given a flute. The end result is different.
I've worked with iMS-20 and Animoog since since the iPad 1 days to take a couple of examples. They still work. I'm not about to abandon them or cull them down simply because we have the current circumstance - that's like a craftsman saying "Oh - OK. Nail shortage - I'll throw away my hammer." What I desire and expect is for them, and other apps, to continue to work as they have done for quite some time with Audiobus... Not behave strangely. (esp. if using versions that were not updated - or reverted to ipas before AB SDK 2.1 additions).
Someone mentioned another log... Let me just nip outside to the wood pile. It might be a cold winter this year. :-)
Ill drink to that, add PPG.
Edit: I misspoke earlier, it should of been Audiobus getting credit.
Off topic, or perhaps not. A few of these have samples of their work. Can't help but wonder what they'd make of a week with an iPad to play with. No. Don't mean this as a 'pipe down you've never had it to so good', just came across it today and my first thought was 'I bet these guys had connection/update problems too....'
As my dear old dad would say: T'was ever thus....
http://earthlymission.com/the-greatest-electronic-albums-of-the-50s-and-60s/
@JohnnyGoodyear said:
My SH-101 has been in the shop for a month. Fairly typical for hardware repairs unless you're a working studio/touring musician and can't afford not to pay the 'come do it right now' fee.
I had to send a Moog in for repair some time back - and, yes, it put a dent in my schedule - but - it did get repaired and works again just fine... I even paid extended warranty to make sure I can send it back again if something else fails - with the expectation I'll again get it back working.
So, hmmm, (stoking the logs - crackle crackle), what would be an extended warranty equivalent here? Would we pay? (I ask that of myself too.) How much would we pay? What would we expect from such a service? Food for thought. < sounds of marshmallows toasting... >
BTW: I have another keyboard that I haven't sent in for repair - that really needs a repair - because some of the buttons are not functioning. I can work around that - and it still makes the same sound, so until I can afford to be without it I'll live with the workaround. But, it does still work with the workaround.
I think a big part of the problems we're experiencing are due to high expectations. You certainly pay a premium for iOS devices because they are proprietary. Because music production is a niche market and people aren't willing to pay PC software prices combined with hardware and an iOS that changes on a yearly basis, it doesn't surprise me at all that there's some rough sailing through these uncharted waters.
A large part of the appeal of iOS music for some may be a perception of an easier to use system than their PC. Due to the above points not to mention the points @Matt_Fletcher_2000 made, it's a wonder things work as well as they do.
I think the two major strategies would be:
1) conservative approach where you back everything up so you can restore to a known state should things go awry. This will involve documentation about working combinations/problems so you can trouble shoot. This process can be more difficult due to the iOS upgrade/update/backup process/cycles.
2) be willing to take some risks and know that some apps and/or sound chains will be broken from time to time so you do some homework but recognize that unless you do strategy one all the time, you probably shouldn't count on using your iOS device for making money.
I'm used to having to fiddle around with programs and operating systems to try and get what you want out of them. This can be a very frustrating process for some and may indeed kill the joy of music making for them. With forums, online videos and other sources of information, I do think it's possible to navigate through; however, it may be too much hassle for you.
As for who's to blame for iOS music making difficulties? There are a lot of real time moving parts so I think it's just the nature of the beast. With a wide range of independent developers you have all sorts of combinations out there that may or may not work together. I do think both the iOS musicians and app developers would be well served by having beta testers to sort things out before releasing problematic apps/updates.
I would anticipate over time some apps and combinations will separate themselves from others and they will be relatively stable. I think we've already seen some of this happening. Bottom line, there's not a lot of money in iOS music apps so a lot of the apps we use are made on a part time basis so we can't expect the same level of support you'd have with more expensive PC based music software as they don't have the resources to do so.
@Paulinko - (sips hot cocoa around fire :-) ) clearly some companies do count on using iOS devices for making money. Why shouldn't they?
Some hardware manufacturers are solely working with iOS music creation - they only service the iOS music industry. When things change for them it throws a lot into the air. Are you saying they shouldn't do that either? It's not just iOS musicians making music with the devices - but others who have issues when things change.
I've been fiddling with OS's for the past 33 years - I'm quite happy building systems from the ground up - but what I like about iOS is the promise - and to a great degree the delivery on that promise - of a plug and play music platform that doesn't require the sometimes creativity-stifling setup of a studio or a DAW - as well as, as has been expressed above - the innovation that does provide something different than desktop plugins because of the platform. I would never have composed a Stravinskyesque symphonic-like piece in Earhoof for example, if Earhoof didn't exist. But, neither would I have composed anything like the same piece on the desktop. Earhoof inspired the piece.
As far as expectations go - there was an expectation that things would continue to work well on 7.1.2 with existing apps - not upated - or - if updated, reverted to non-updated. The reason? They did work in a particular way reliably. So, the expectation there is set from experience, not something vainly hoped for. In addition - there was a certain assurance given that this would indeed be the case as I've referred to elsewhere.
Here's what I expect to happen:
1.) Apple release 8.1(2,3,4 - whatever) - by which time their SDK will have settled down some.
2.) Audiobus releases SDK 2.1.4/5/6/7 and Audiobus 2.1.7/8/9 (or whatever)
3.) App developers will have to do another round to get finally stable on 8.
4.) This may (or may not) fix things on 7 for those who haven't or who can't update to 8 because their favorite apps are not available yet on 8 - still - (or ever).
5.) Some developers will just give up at that point. (if they haven't already)
6.) We'll all have to move to 8 just to get stable because 7 won't get fixed. Any apps not moved by then will likely be abandonware.
7.) We'll have to mothball older devices that would slow down because of 8 but which were working fine with 7 but now can't any more for whatever combination of reasons. Winner: Apple; we buy faster devices with 8 on.
< takes another sip of cocoa >
When I first switched to an OSX based computer from Windows, one of the first things I learned is that if you want things to go easy in Apple land, you stay current. Apple has no qualms about abandoning standards, ports, OS’s, whatever if they think they have a new and better way of doing things. It’s just they way they are, their main attraction to consumers is being cutting edge, and that means not looking behind too much, which is unfortunate for a lot of people.
I learned the hard way when I bought my parents an iMac years ago so they could surf the web and FaceTime with us. It was a nice closed system, it worked, and we agreed not to update anything. Except then you get cut out of the Apple ecosystem eventually. You need a newer OS than your hardware supports just to sync, or to do something like FaceTime. You wait too long, you get left behind, and no one at Apple will care.
So I update right away when OS updates come out, not because I’m an Apple lemming, but because that’s how their whole ecosystem is set to work. Look, here’s the newest way we’re doing things, everyone get onboard. You too with the iPod Touch, you have to stand in back though. Apps are expected to be kept current, and Apple is going to adjust the OS however they want to make things better. You don’t have to agree with it, that’s just how it’s worked so far.
This has happened to me a lot over the years, both on the laptop and on iOS devices all the way back to the first iPhone. Each time, I’d say that a few apps probably have issues, but in general it goes very smoothly. The few apps that do have hiccups, usually get an update in a few weeks and then it’s like nothing happened. Ironically iOS8 was the first time I’ve noticed more than 1 or 2 issues, and they are all related to Audiobus, not the actual iOS8 update.
I don’t make all my money from using my iPad to make music, but I do use it a lot for writing songs that I sell to supplement my income. Never have I run into a situation where I didn’t have some other apps I could turn to that got the job done. Any time you rely on too strict of a configuration of gear to get work done, you’re setting yourself up for a disaster eventually IMO. There’s THOUSANDS of apps available for writing music, don’t blame the tools if you’re calling yourself a craftsman.
I DO make all my money running a business that relies on OSX software (Audiofile’s Triumph) for me to function and make money. So I know all about wanting things to work right in order to feed my family. But it’s also taught me that you have to really focus on the developers who KNOW how important it is that they are on that update bus just like Apple wants them to be. One of my best friends writes iOS music apps, and I see with each of these iOS updates how much prep work they put in to make sure their user base has the least wait possible. Good developers know what’s going on, they’re not (usually) surprised by OS updates.
It’s taught me to focus on a lean set up that uses software from developers I know are in it for the long haul. Many like the people on this forum, you can tell by the way that they interact with their user base that everyone is on the same page. You find the right group of people making software you like, those that have a great record for staying current and fixing bugs fast, and you don’t have to worry about many of these issues.
At least not for long
People have been freaking out as if things are the end of the world, but the fact is there’s enough that IS working that you can figure it out if you need to get a job done. We’re making music with computer, which means there’s actually a LOT of things that are integral to how we express ourselves that are out of our control (and always will be). You need to be flexible to deal with hiccups when they come, because we are never the intended user base for the way these devices are designed.
Things like this will happen, adapt, move on (and support those developers that want to support you). It’s critical to being a 21st century musician IMO.
A little OT: but, pass the cheese plate round the fireside I guess ;-) : I'm still happily running a DAW on Snow Leopard. Supports my hardware too. I cannot update my main studio MacOS machine to Mavericks - doesn't support my hardware any more. (Yes - I tried - dual booted off external drive, etc. etc. Broken.) So my main studio machine is running Mountain Lion and will likely not change from that for as long as I can manage to keep it running.
I know a few people who do similar things and it works for them too. Just saying that from my perspective, it never seemed like the easiest way to go about things. Guess it's just how we each approach it.
@Tarekith - I agree we are using iPads in a way that Apple didn't design them for. That's a good point certainly - always has been. But, the Audiobus team "solved" the problem for us by coming out with this excellent product which was working stably until Sept 8th. Now we're having issues - even on 7. < munches cookie with cocoa >
Additionally, I am in complete control of my DAW setup on my desktop.
When a manufacturer - like Apple - updates the OS and it doesn't work for me, I don't use it. I even get the ability to clone my existing setup and try it out - with a separate boot disk - and fall back to a stable situation if it doesn't. I can't do that with iOS - it's pretty much all or nothing.
(Hey - it's not only Apple here with iOS, I have a Samsung And.*oid device that I updated - and regret doing so - took away my ability to root the device and run a virtualized Linux on it - which I wanted to continue to do.)
If a desktop application doesn't work, like, e.g. the current version of my DAW wasn't for some people, they reverted to the older version. Everything hunky dorey all over again.
If an updated VST or plugin doesn't work, then, I'll go back to the one that does, and, well, what do you know - it works again! :-)
If a driver update doesn't work, I'll rummage in my CD collection or online and find the older driver - and it works again.
Everything I need to express myself there is in my control. I thought it was in my control with not updating apps (or at least reverting to non-updated apps) on iOS too...
Also "Enough is working" is relative if the thing you work with isn't working. Then nothing you need is working. If a violonist's bow is broken then, sure, they could play pizzicato, but they'll not be able to do anything else until the bow is fixed. Maybe they should become multi-instrumentalists :-D - learn the trumpet too. Some do of course! :-)
< stokes the logs again - warm glow - keeps the conversation nice and friendly > :-)
FWIW, I wasn't singling you out, it was more directed at a lot of the more 'dire predictions on iOS music making' that I see people making. You obviously have some very specific issues that are bothering you, I hope you get resolutions for those.