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Comments
That's a great cinematic soundtrack ! The second part with vocals ends up the piece unresolved (which btw is something you're very good at unresolve-"ness" 😉?). I guess I'll have to wait for the next piece to see where this movie goes !
Oh and great artwork picture !
I am afraid I am now going to be very original with my comment... Very
evocative atmosphere served with well chosen blend of instruments. The title fits the track perfectly 😉
Some nice guitar chops here!
I am not qualified to judge the songwriting on this one as it is not a genre I enjoy but I am sure anyone into this kind of thing could have a blast.
As usual and as expected from you, impeccable sound wise. Overuse of auto tune on the vocals to my taste but I am sure some like this. Great sequencing for the nylon string guitar, apart from a few unreal artifacts here and there, it sounds very convincing most of the time. Are you playing the electric guitar solos or are those sequenced too?
I enjoyed some of Dan Snaith production especially his Caribou albums Andorra and Swim. very curious to hear what you've done with this one. Any chance you'll reupload it anytime soon? For now both links are dead
It is a divisive topic. But it shouldn't be. I suppose it comes down to what matters and what people can hear. For the example, I am often the only person in a group to hear pitch problems in live performance while everyone calls it flawless. And I have friends with higher standards that consider me lazy when it come to getting my vocals as pitch perfect as I can. I'm not as strict as some I know who are more experienced and professional than me. Professional as in they do it for a living.
@JanKun We will know soon enough if anyone cares. For the record though, there are more than a few notes after importing to Melodyne that are almost perfectly halfway between 2 notes. You can't get more out of tune than that. From my point of view it's not a question whether the vocals have pitch issues. That's s undeniable if you are looking at the evidence or are highly sensitive to pitch issues. It's a question of whether you can hear it or if you can hear it, whether you care about it.
I hope your goal is not to make a point that you have a better ear than most of us here. But if it is the case, I personally have no problem with my own limitations and I am sure you're right and I surrender happily to your superior ears.
To me the song sounds good the way it is with its current attitude and as much as there are pitch issues as you're willing to prove, those are not issues for my amateur ears. like @jo92346 mentioned, this is what defines Richard style and identity. Fixing issues on his voice will most likely kill his vibe. I know this from my personal experience because I already tried to do that on one of my previous collaboration with him and eventually gave up. I don't think Better always means best especially when it comes to creation and human performance but again that's just my amateur opinion.
If you're willing to spend that much of your precious time on this, I hope it is done with the best intention and for the greater good, like, for exemple, when a healthcare provider first offer a diagnosis and then solutions to fix the problem.
@JanKun hope this works. I can hear things that I can improve, but I’m already on to the next 5 things 🤣 https://on.soundcloud.com/GWbzrUnaxCaL2gpU9
I have some thoughts on the singing thing.
I grew up in a house with a mother who was a classically trained soprano. The warm ups, the exercises, the practice, the dedication, the control, the power was…..excruciating when you get rudely awakened by the cantor & have a hangover.
Compared to her, most singers I’ve heard are not in that league. Sadly, my mate Jay who trained from the age of 12 and has been a professional singer most his life is in that league. but I can admit the bawbag is jawdroppingly good when he feels the need to remind us of that. He makes his living performing, but what he performs doesn’t require all his ability.
Anyway for me, it kind of all comes down to what you are singing. If how you sing, what you choose to sing, goes hand in hand with the style, then it’s not all about your bel-canto trained technique y’know? ……….PARKLIFE! 🤣
It is not. I don't imagine in my wildest dreams that this might be the case. But if there was a competition I'd join in for sure. Not because I think my ears are the best. Just for fun. And because it would be interesting.
I don't know what that means but if it's a statement in celebration of the limitations that every one of us shares, identifies and uses as a platform, to build a better, and more superior version of ourselves, everyday, then I can honestly say, you have my full support. I'm all about trying to be the best me I can be. Unfortunately I'm way too lazy to even get close to the best me, but I find it's a positive way to think and live so I just keep moving in that direction, as fast as my lazy legs will carry me. If I'm way off, let's just assume it was no biggie and move on?
Aww, come on. I feel like I really said what I felt with no malice or intention to harm. It was, after all, exactly what Richard asked for, and he said he's fine with that. He really did. From what I've seen on this forum, I like Richard. He seems like a really nice person. And better than that, he is a musician. I tend to like musicians. Unless they are the type that try to help people, but only as a clever ploy to sneakily make other musicians look foolish by succumbing to their superior ear powers. I told Richard what I thought. Richard checked it out, decided whether it was worth thinking about and moved on from there. He was interested enough to see what might happen. I've done the same thing. Sent my own music or vocals or mixes to other people to see what they can do. Mostly because I know I have "limitations" I want to improve upon. If I was just being the self appointed pitch Police I think Richard would be completely uninterested in my post. I know I would be. But who knows? Maybe he isn't interested. Maybe it's a test, a benevolent plot by Richard, to lure my vibe killing powers into the light where I can be exposed to the forum members and flailed verbally, only to cower in fear before scurrying off into the darkness, ashamed and never to return.
My time is precious, that's why it comes with my personal guarantee of best intentions, not for the greater good, but for Richard, and no one else. In all honesty, I can honestly say, I gave no thought, whatsoever, to anyone other than Richard when I offered to give it a go. I also don't know what the healthcare is like where you are but if I was to offer help of the quality of our healthcare system, now THAT, would be something to complain about.
Hope all is well in your world. No harm no fowl. You're good by me.
@Ailerom
"Unless they are the type that try to help people, but only as a clever ploy to sneakily make other musicians look foolish by succumbing to their superior ear powers"
Not being a native speaker, I am not sure to get your point. Is it supposed to be addressed at me or is it some kind of self deprecation that you addressed at yourself ?
All I wanted to say was that pointing once that a Vocal performance is pitchy is perfectly fine, especially in this thread aimed at providing feedback at each other. @BillS did that very elegantly when he provided advice on how to improve things based on his personal experience. On the other hand, though done with the best intentions, I am not sure firing Melodyne helps in any way, except to prove something that Richard is already aware about his current vocals pitchiness. I am emphasising on the word "current' because Having following him for the last 6 years or so and being a regular collaborator for 4 years, I can say without a doubt that Richard is the best exemple of consistency and perseverance as a key to self improvement. It has been truly inspiring to witness him working his ass off and progressing. On a personal side, it motivated me to work harder on self improvement too. This time, he dared to try something new and more difficult with his voice and he was not ashamed to share it with us. I think it's worth pointing out. Criticism is inevitable especially when listening in a cold and objective way. But we are not machines. I want to believe that there is still a subjective way of listening to a performance, taking into account that there is a human life behind it. That's why I hate so much auto tune, vocal synth or AI generated vocals and this futile quest of "perfection". This is not what singing is about in my shitty book. Singing should be a celebration of being alive. It is about sweat tears and blood and of course joy and happiness. That's also why the pitch is not an issue for me here because there's this great attitude ! when I hear Richard trying those new vocals chops, I not only hear notes, pitch , duration and velocity, I can almost see him going through all those years of efforts to sing better and write better songs. And that's what is truly beautiful, at least for me.
I have no doubt that he might give another try at those vocals in a not too distant future like he regularly does with gis old material. And I am sure that whenever he does so, he will come up with something that will very likely be more pleasing to your ears, without the need of any pitch correction. It is just a matter of time and practice and will.
Anyway I should shut my fucking mouth now, I already said too much. If Richard is fine with all this, then it is all good. Time is indeed rare and precious I don't want to waste any more of ours. Hoping you'll use your great ears to create more music to share in here. Take care.
My ears are not great. I know how good my ears are, and it's not that good at all. Don't shut your mouth on my account.
My whole post might be tough to make sense of if English is not your first language. Basically just a more complicated way of saying I don't really like the sort of person you implied I was. We are on the same page. Just one of us has a more tactful way of speaking and it's not me. No harm done hopefully.
Also, it's not about proving anything. As far as I'm concerned I have no doubt about the issues I mentioned. Richard was willing to allow me to see if I could do some editing. From what I can tell, just to see if he likes what I did. It's about making it as good as it can be. Not proving one of us was right, or better in some way.
It's about helping Richard get where he wants to go. No offense, but what you want out of his music is no concern of mine. My only interest was in seeing if Richard wanted me to try something with his song.
whoops double post
Thank you for clarifying, I now know your intentions were good.
I personally don't think the results matters more than the way. That's why I embrace imperfection. That's also why I am not too much into all those pitch correction and auto tune stuff. Do I need to mention what I think about AI 😉?
This is a great discussion, and I think it raises some really interesting questions about perfection and imperfection in music.
So first of all some points just to explain the way I’m seeing things:
First of all I welcome the feedback from @Ailerom and @BillS - In the rules for the SOTMC it says the purpose of feedback is to be honest, and I believe this was the spirit that the feedback was made with. I would much rather hear honest feedback than bland back-slapping.
But I also think that the pitch issues that they are picking up on are quite subtle, I say this because when I listen back to the song, it doesn’t really sound out of tune, and I think @JanKun agrees with this (and in the pitch correction software most of the notes are only slightly out). My hunch is just that some people are much more sensitive to pitch than others. I think a non-musician listening to this track would just focus on the song, and simply not notice the pitch issues, because it’s not wildly out of tune, it’s just a bit imprecise.
And so this brings me to the meat and potatoes of the matter: should this slight imprecision be corrected, or left as it is? And honestly, there is no right or wrong answer. Some people will prefer a more perfect version of the vocal, or at least find it less grating, and some people will prefer a more human and more imperfect (but more authentic) performance.
Like so many things in art and music, ultimately it’s subjective. We’re not talking about a performance that is completely out of key, there are many commercial releases that are sung with a similar level of imprecision, and ultimately those singers have a character that is defined in part by their slight pitchiness. I mean no-one listens to Daniel Johnston or David Berman and expects perfection. But that also applies to Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Syd Barrett, Liam Gallager, and Ian Brown.
So I have a question for @Ailerom and @BillS, how do you feel about Dylan’s vocal in One More Cup Of Coffee for the Road? The reason I keep posting this is because I think it gets to the heart of this discussion. His pitch slides around a lot in this track, and it’s what gives character to the whole performance. It would be absurd (and impossible) to pitch-correct this song, because the end result would just sound weird, and would not sound like this song. Now obviously I’m not Dylan, but I think what @JanKun is alluding to is that some of my pitch drifting and sliding is what gives my voice character, and pitch-correcting that away might just sound weird. I know when I’ve tried to use pitch-correction on my vocals it can actually sound worse, because sometimes (like Dylan I think) you can’t correct the performance without killing it.
(the vocal starts 37 seconds in, the video should be cued up for it):
And one final thought: it might well be the case that after a few more years of singing practice my own ear gets more sensitive, and I might listen back to my current performances and hear the imperfections, and even be embarrassed by them – that’s actually very likely. Every year I get a little better and I find that listening back to my older stuff is often painful. But you don't get there without being here first
I’ve liked and listened to Bob Dylan for a very long time and his voice is the proverbial marmite. I’ve always enjoyed it and all its “imperfections” which actually make it brilliant. But many others, musicians and non-musicians alike say he “can’t sing”, and wonder at anyone actually listening to his voice for pleasure, let alone enjoying it! He’s not everyone’s cup of tea. Or coffee for that matter. It is all subjective. I’ve been listening again to your song Richard, and I think a lot of what initially I “noticed” were actually quite unusual, but actually perfectly valid choice of notes for the vocal melody. For example, I think you choose to sing a Bb over a D chord, for the word “caught” (inside a jar). I really, really like the song having listened to it multiple times and I like the way you sing it. I was never advocating pitch tuning it, and I wouldn’t go there!
Thanks for that, and you've stumbled on something really interesting. The word "caught" is sung over a G chord, and I went and looked at the pitch in Vocal Studio Pro and yes I'm singing B flat, the minor third - over a (theoretically) major chord. BUT if I "correct" the note to the proper chord tone it changes the melody and I hate it. Luckily the actual chord played on the rhythm guitar is a powerchord so the dissonance is less obvious, but it definitely creates tension.
(And yes you never suggested using pitch correction, I acknowledge that).
To be clear when I'm writing a vocal melody I don't know which notes I'm specifically singing, I do it by instinct. But I do have some opinions on what makes a good vocal melody, and one of these is that I try and avoid always singing chord tones, because IMO that creates boring melodies. So I try and create some tension in the melody to resolve at the end of the line. Again IMO the key to a good melody is to have tension and release along with an interesting rhythm, and that's what I try and do when I write the vocal melody. So my note choices are pretty much done instinctively, but they are guided by these principles.
So again thanks for bringing this up, because the more I look at this whole discussion the more I discover.
Looking at the chorus melody in more detail in Vocal Studio Pro I can see the note choices more clearly, and there are extended notes sung on A, B flat, and B, as well as E flat and E. I can see why that would be grating
But changing the notes really does change the melody in ways I don't like, so I think it's just my writing and singing style, and changing it to being more "correct" might actually end up creating less interesting songs.
@rychardyot very nice work with drums on that one. The track is a pleasure to hear - like most of your stuff, well balanced and mastered.
@klownshed I'm a big fan of your orchestral stuff so easy win with me lol. But the brasses in that one are great, I love them, so deep and powerful. Hans Zimmer vibes!
@DavidEnglish calm and soothing and usual, lovely track. I really like the harp in this one.
@BillS I was expecting you to growl at some point lol. Great track, I really like all the variations and the chord changes and some of the melodies are amazing, especially the one around 1:30. Did you "manually" play one of more instruments here? I suppose the guitar..
@jo92346 perfectly executed, catchy with such good quality. I'm not a big fan of auto-tuned voice, but the track is really great.
@squeals can't find any version of your song to listen to..?
Cheers @unlink 90% was played manually on real guitars, however in the final very fast section of the song I played it slower in real time and then ramped up the bpm. I’d love to include a vocal growl but that style is beyond me I’m afraid 😂
I read somewhere, I forgot who it was, my apologies, that they made sure to post something every month here. I took it to mean hey, it’s not always awesome, but it’s where I want it and it’s mine. https://on.soundcloud.com/hYq37wsYKqXJQm9b7
Nice collage of samples, abstract but enjoyable and textural.
Thank you!
I will say there’s only 2 samples in that though the vocal and the “bass layer” the rest is good ol’ fashioned plugins like speldosa, beathawk, and Swam.
@richardyot
This one seems visceral and reflective at the same time. The guitar is especially strong as it sets up a kind of wailing commentary on the lyrics. It all gels together for a strong impact.
@klownshed
Epic sound and progression. Terrific strings with a majestic feel, tinged with melancholy. The vocals send it even higher. Very well done. Bravo!
@BillS
Love the massive guitar sound that keeps peeking in and out. Kept waiting for your usual vocals. Turns out they weren’t needed. Wonderful guitar work in a song that stays interesting throughout.
@jo92346
I’m always amazed by the incredible range of your musical creations. This one is polished with a keen understanding of its own musical genre. It goes down as smooth as a properly aged whisky.
@squeals
Catchy with a solid beat that doesn’t overpower the listener. Quirky yet familiar. Airy yet substantial.
@unlink
Otherworldly opening with both the instruments and vocals. Progresses strongly as it soars and explores. Rises above expectations with so many small flourishes (in addition to the big ways). Quite the journey.
@Drrabbitfoot
I like how this one constantly alters its focus, while staying true to a core set of musical motifs. Repeatedly spreads outward and then retracts back in, as though it’s actively exploring a natively shifting universe.
Thank you sir, very much
@DavidEnglish thank you David…I wish I could sing in the style the piece demanded but it was a question “know your limits”! Back to something more in my comfort zone in September 🙂
Good to see you participate. Sounds a bit like a 90s chill out remix — short but sweet.
Were you going to give the others that participated feedback?
My apologies @klownshed. I hadn’t read the T&C, I was going to try to make it up for this month, but I’m not sure my music is a good fit. That being said, I just followed you on the YouTube’s and SoundCloud. I am a HUGE fan of Thomas Newman and your progressions feel like th first Time I listened to the Shawshank score, please keep doing what you do!
No worries, but please don’t worry about ‘a good fit’. All and any music is a good fit I think?
Thank you for the kind comments about Thomas Newman too — I’ve not really listened to his music in isolation. I’ll have to make a playlist :-)