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Comments
I think that if someone spec'd out their perfect drum machine, and a developer implemented it, there would be someone else here saying, "What? This doesn't do ANYTHING I want!"
On the other hand, if an app was designed by committee, the result would likely be something laughable or mortifying.
Watching the Gadget voting, some people seemed astonished at what other people wanted.
I think that's great. It means that creativity is alive. People find amazing ways to make music. They make the process their own.
I think the right thing for a developer to do is make a highly opinionated app, and hope it ends up being sublime.
I'm not saying be ignorant of what has been made or what people want. Instead, be inspired by what has been made and what people want, but make something new that lives and breathes.
Way back when iMPC Pro was released we had some very lively discussions here and built a 'list' of features we all wanted in a drum-sampler. I think the list is still here somewhere, it's one of the longest threads in this forum
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Not a bad template for making an app to be proud of.
Well put indeed.
DrumPerfect was the result of much feedback from the AB forum...
http://forum.audiob.us/discussion/1229/devs-build-the-killer-drum-app-please/p1
Then it earned its name. :-)
Drumperfect is indeed a great drum app. And it's great precisely because it's opinionated. Marinus set out to solve a fairly specific problem: programming great natural sounding drum patterns. It can be (ab)used for other purposes but if you approach the app from that perspective, you'll be rewarded.
Makes me realize that I don't know that I even want a perfect (for me) drum machine. I want a nice set of opinionated, purpose built drum apps. There are certain global(ish) features that I'd love them all to have and I think those are the sorts of features the RustiK was talking about in the original post: copy and paste of patterns and sounds, kit loading, solid MIDI clock, variable length steps, swing... but I see those all as elements of a great drum app (for the sorts of users who frequent this forum—tiny slice of the world that we are), not necessarily the perfect drum app.
I would like to see DrumPerfect's Pattern mode but with a Diode/DM1 Grid and an Attack/ElasicDrum Kit section. DreamDrumPerfect
awaiting FingerBeat and Patterning...
FingerBeat 2.0 will be a total blast when it is released, which should pretty soon.
The 'Public Beta' is at 'Release Candidate' status since yesterday, so the wait should almost be over...
FingerBeat 2.0 is more of a 'Jam and Create' rather than a 'Super Detailed Programming & Sync to DAW' kind of app.
For me it really brings back the fun into sampling just like the Korg Electribe ES-1 did back in the days when bought it
Remains to be seen how much of the 'brain-droppings' I've shared to the developers will be left for the future versions of FingerBeat...
precisely.... I don't care about anything above the basics, like the stuff you call global(ish) above, it would be wonderful if we had a ton of beat machines that adhered to a standard just like synth apps do, but that all had their differences and quirks above that. We'd get allot more out of them that way......... but debating about whether a drumsampler should slice samples, or have copy and paste etc.... stuff like that is for the birds, and it's getting old.
you never see people debating whether there should be a filter in a synth or not, just the quality of the filters, the beat machine category is sorely lacking that same perspective.
DrumPerfect got even better with upcoming update.
@kobamoto Generally agree but I think something like sample slicing is an order of magnitude more complicated to implement than a filter. And I think that counts.
This is obviously just perspective but, a subtractive synth without a filter is basically a full spectrum organ whereas a sampling drum machine without slicing is still a sampling drum machine. I'd love for diode108 or DM1 or Nanostudio to have sample slicing but they're totally usable to me without it. Absolutely get that it might be the exact opposite for you.
I think this disagreement across many many threads at this point (!) comes down to my take on the notion of 'should'. My notion isn't necessarily right but I realize it's what usually gets my self-righteous Irish up. I'll basically defend any maker's right to ignore 'should' with impunity and just do what they do. If a particular buyer thinks an app should have something it doesn't, they needn't buy it. That's not at all to say that suggesting improvements or critiquing an app rubs me wrong—I'm all for suggesting improvements and pointing out shortcomings—but yeah, the notion of 'should' and the occasionally associated indignation/entitledness absolutely does.
I will now proceed with getting over it.
I'll basically defend any maker's right to ignore 'should' with impunity and just do what they do. If a particular buyer thinks an app should have something it doesn't, they needn't buy it.
Voltaire agrees, as do I.
Except if that thing is "audio copy/paste" amirite?
Just like making music. Programming is a form of art.
If you write and record a new song it too is subject to the marketplace. Of course some programmers write shareware just like their are some musicians that release music for free (or ask for a donation).
I can't help but think that a drum app that tried to accommodate everyone's feature requests would inherently have a big problem - too complicated! Maybe a bunch of niche apps is still the best solution. Personally I'm pretty happy with DM1 and Gadget.
I think where we differ is in definition, I don't think of diode or dm1 for instance as a drum sampler, for me it's a drum machine so the fact that it doesn't have a slicer is ok by me, if it does one day that's ok too, but drum samplers are different imo and not having a capable slicer is less than ok in my opinion.... same synth analogies still apply. every instrument has things that they 'should' have, for guitars it's strings, for flutes it's holes, for me when it comes to drum samplers it's slicers and an easy way to get samples into and out of the drumsampler, there are some other things I think they should have as well specific to drum sampling like the ability to sample and intuitive file management because for a drumsampler these things are akin to pick ups and tuning pegs on guitars...
of course like you stated nobody has to put strings or pick ups on a guitar they made if they don't want to or a slicer in a drumsampler or make it actually be able to sample but that doesn't mean that those things aren't valid common sense expectations to have.
btw I think a slicer is much easier to implement than a proper filter, a slicer is all about getting the math right but a good filter is about getting more complex math right and then it still might not sound right. sample slicing is about setting markers and triggering, and if it has no transient detection like most that we see then even that is left down to our own ability to place markers. we're just telling the app look at the file here , and now look at it here. synth parameters by contrast can actually work correctly and still be bad, so to make them sound good developers have to work for it.
as far as your feelings regarding indignations and entitledness go no worries, I've got priorities
besides any time we disagree only means that we're about to agree on something else.
I think the reason why developers don't add a slicer is because they can make more money selling it as a separate product. The classic example is Propellerheads selling Recycle to slice loops into REX files and needing Dr Rex in Reason to play them.
Not really an active member in the forum, but can't stop from typing a wish I mentioned before. I want the Drummer feature of Garagaband (Mac version) and Logic as an app so badly.
I'm ready to pay too, we don't want these guys to go hungry.
I think another reason why developers can't make money is that in the desktop world all the major DAWs do sample slicing. I just got back into desktop music and was surprised that there are just a few AU/VST sample slicers. Egoist is a rarity but also includes a bass synth and drums. It's an interesting subject.
Yes, I've wished that too many times. Hopefully someday, it makes writing a lot easier.
For me, being able to sync to or from other apps midi clock plus start/stop function makes a difference. I do think it would be great to have a sampler/slicer drum app even though Egoist and Sector plus other apps cover some of this territory. I think there's still room for others. Many developers have really focused on upgrading their apps to have midi sync start/stop and I appreciate this a lot.
Coming from a background of hardware MPC drum machines I've long since had the fantasy of an Exact iOS porting of a 1000, a 2000xl or a 2500. The iPad has roughly the right dimensions to make the UI possible and what I've taken from the iMPC approach of "if-it-ain't-broken-still-fix-it" is that UI = workflow of said holy-grail MPCs. They weren't perfect.. they were limited.. and untold amounts of legendary music have been made with them.
With all this in mind recently I rediscovered the Beat Machine app. For me - an oldschooler with the hardware - it's just so, So good.
note: while I was sleeping on Beat Machine it was getting updated and most / all of my prior missing features have been implemented .. I say it's now up there with SeekBeats for Drastically Underrated App awards.
yeah beat machine is an underrated superstar for sure!
seekbeats has the secret sauce in it, and another good one is turquoise ds
Beat Machine is a good app, it could do with a bit of up dating.
Diode is my favorite at the moment and I'm starting to get into Different Drummer for experimental stuff.