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The App Economy

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Comments

  • @Sebastian ;

    I would like to see Apple have more competition. Apple has designed their store with only one aim, to make money for Apple. Fair dues, they are a business, but also I don't see how much longer Apple can expect premium prices for hardware and such a high cut for software. How many other hardware/ software businesses get such high margins from all slices of the pie? 

    The app store is also really bad at promoting new music software. This I also blame for the sell it cheap at the start response, to try to get up the charts. Without AudioBus forums and the STR guys, I would probably not buy as many apps. I understand most Devs do not have any advertising budget.
  • @RustiK said:
    Apple never had to let anyone else even sell apps.
    Thank God for the profit that has motivated APPLE to keep innovating for the good of all of our lives.
    In a normal capitalist society, competition drives the pricing and marketplace. Apple have excluded any competition and cornered the market.

    And they're getting neatly compensated for that by having turned iDevices into a hardware subscription model that. Apple should not be charging a cut from developers (or users) for the apps that are the main reason their devices get sold.
    Utter Bastards aren't they.
  • edited December 2015
    I'd like to add a few more thing points about why it is stupid of Apple to demand a 30% from developers:

    1) a higher profit margin for developers would enable them to make MUCH better apps. Apps that improve Apple's devices.
    2) it would hurt Google (and Microsoft), since it would take away one more source of revenue from Google, because Google would have to follow Apple's lead.
    3) the amount of money Apple makes with these 30% is insignificant compared to the rest of their revenue. They've dished out 10 billion bucks to developers in 2014 if I'm not mistaken. That means those were about 70% of what users were charged in that year for apps. Laughable in comparison to the rest of Apple's business.

    it's really bad for business (Apple's business, third party developers' business and users). Apple's own bottom line would be positively impacted because developers would be able to spend more money on polishing their existing apps or making new ones. Every good app is an advertisement for Apple's hardware it runs on. It makes no sense to collect a tax on free advertisement.
  • Great brainstorming in this think tank, thanks @RedSkyLullaby for starting such a positive, thought provoking, thread.

    What if developers take to the Synthmaster Player route? Give the app away for free as player/brain/demo etc. but have an online subscription account that we can purchase and port over new downloads via codes. All funds would go straight to the devs and stay within the current App Store guidelines.
  • edited December 2015
    @TGiG said:
    Great brainstorming in this think tank, thanks @RedSkyLullaby for starting such a positive, thought provoking, thread.

    What if developers take to the Synthmaster Player route? Give the app away for free as player/brain/demo etc. but have an online subscription account that we can purchase and port over new downloads via codes. All funds would go straight to the devs and stay within the current App Store guidelines.
    Yep, that's one way to do this. Hard to say if it's viable though because there would have to be a community first that would be willing to pay for this. Are you happy with their product so far? How much did you spend on it and would you do it again?

    Sadly this only works for new content, as far as I can tell. There's a difference between updates that enhance the feature set of an app and content updates that just add a new version of an existing feature (we're mainly talking about new sounds/new effects).
  • Sony found out the hard way in the games business until they eventually decided that helping smaller Devs actually helped their business. Only time will tell if Apple cane see a longer term strategy may be helpful. I think change will only come when Apple continues to see its profits fall. Unless they come up with a new sector product that becomes the new iPhone for them.....imagine how swell headed they will be then ! Lol
  • I agree with @Sebastian that Apple's bottom line would be better off if they decided to support app developers by taking a smaller cut. Apple is by and large a seller of hardware. If app developers can't earn a sustainable income due to App Store policies and yearly iOS updates, then there will be less investment on the part of developers to create or maintain apps. This will lead to fewer reasons for Apple customers to buy new Apple hardware if they see their existing apps falling by the wayside with each iOS update or there are no compelling apps being developed for their new devices.

    I think the bottom line is that music creation is probably too small a market to drive change at Apple; however, if you combine all of the small niche markets together, that could have a great impact.

    The question becomes why would someone want to buy a new iOS device?

    1. The software I already have will continue to work.
    2. There will be new software developed to take advantage of the new device's capabilities.
    3. Other hardware won't satisfy the first two requirements.

    When Apple decides developers are just another source of revenue rather than business partners, they undermine the above three points. People will decide they can get a cheaper device from someone else if they believe their niche needs can't be met by Apple anymore. They can shift their niche activities elsewhere or find other things to do. Apple sales will flatten out as the Apple brand no longer stands out because people will feel there is no reason to stick with Apple since their needs and expectations are no longer being fulfilled. On the other hand, this could be as simple as deciding to upgrade less frequently since the new hardware doesn't offer anything they can't already do and may negatively impact what they're already doing.
  • @RustiK said:
    Can I please interject?

    "30% for nothing"

    I'm actually laughing to myself at this moment.

    Do people understand the millions of jobs and income that Apple is allowing to form and grow throughout the world?

    Never mind the fun and activities for millions of people who enjoy the apps.

    Apple never had to let anyone else even sell apps.   They could have made is licensing deals or something along those lines.  They allowed this to all happen for the good of us all.  Apple gives millions in donations from the money they make.

    My suggestion to those who think Apple is the boogie man, make your own company, create your own world changing product, and have it be the greatest technological revolution in 100 years. Then you can be the leader of your own charity based app system.   Good luck with that.


    Thank God for the profit that has motivated APPLE to keep innovating for the good of all of our lives.

    No one forced anyone to use an Apple product or apps....................LULZ
    When did this become about ideology? Whether it's capitalism or not, many of us don't like how the Apple way is working, or feel it could work much better. We don't view Apple products as charity, or that developers should just shut up and be happy they've been allowed to participate in the Apple experience. Yes, Apple makes some cool stuff, and things apparently work for Apple, but developers and users complain because it's not working for THEM. We've invested in Apple by purchasing their products, and now we have our experiences. If you're happy with your investment and where you think it's going, then maybe this threads not for you?

  • If app-prices increase would we be a little more discerning as to which App's to buy, hence our trigger happy buy finger, would not be as ready to supply revenue, to app developers who's Apps we seldom use. With regard to Apples cut, from the sale of Apps, good luck, I think change may come, but more likely 'forced' by Windows or Android, than Apple themselves. Increasing the price of Apps would be fine with me, as long as it went with an increase in the stability of the iOS environment.
  • Apple's doing what's good for Apple. Of course they love it when their customers have access to quality software for a pittance even if most developers don't even break even.

    However, when one really thinks about it, buying an iOS app doesn't come with the same benefits as buying a desktop app.
    First of all, an iOS app has no trial. Even with all the reviews, videos and screenshots, there's always an amount of uncertainty. And Apple is trying to make it seem like all sales are final and any refunds are awarded only on a case by case basis. In the EU they were obliged to offer no questions asked refunds and they tried to wriggle out of it by popping a message that forced you to agree that sales are final once you download the app. Then they got slapped and removed it.

    Secondly, after buying an app, you are dependent on the developer's goodwill in updating and supporting it for free forever, because iOS is quite bad at backwards compatibility and paying for upgrades is not supported.
    You are hoping that they won't decide to add IAPs, that Apple won't remove them from the store for some reason and that they can afford to stay afloat. More uncertainty.

    Thirdly, iOS apps have fewer features, and are less integrated with one-another especially for power users.

    So in the end, those apps are really worth less. Maybe not 0,99 or 4,99, but that's what customers are willing to pay apparently. If you're not happy with that, get better customers on other platforms. iOS by virtue of its huge customer base is full of fools, whiners and cheapskates and they all have an equal voice on the app store.

  • I bought the iPad for music because the powerful and abundant apps are cheap. I'm not a pro, so my budget is limited. I would be willing to pay more for more advanced apps, but I still wouldn't buy at a cost typical of pro-level desktop software. The point of the original post is that developers should be paid adequately for their work, and if they aren't, we'll end up losing them. I don't know what adequate is exactly, but it appears that the way Apple does things, the app store is far from ideal for music software developers.  

    I don't know the market, but my guess is that Apple is going to do fine. They seem to know what they're doing in selling consumer electronics, and they're ruthless when it comes to making a profit. The question is what kind of product do we get for making music, amateur and professional? Does Apple really care enough to concern themselves with a minority of users? Do niche markets add up to enough buying power to make a difference?

    The bottom line for me is that I'm rooting for Apple to get it right for what I invested in. I didn't buy an iPad to read ebooks or get on twitter. At this point, even though many music apps are very good when they work, I'm getting less than I expected with the product. Too much unreliability and instability, apparently due to the ever changing iOS. I'm not encouraged by how Apple does business. Maybe it's just what to expect being on the bleeding edge, and soon it will all stabilize. If not, I'll hope some other giant corporation gets it right and I'll move again to another platform.

  • edited December 2015
    The google play store and the Windows store or any other AppStore on android take 30% of every app sale like the App Store?. Or allow a more direct way for developers to communicate with costumers?, paid updates or demo versions exist? 

    I'm not sure they do, it's a problem general to modern software and as the AppStore it's the only store that it's really relevant (I'm not sure but it seems like it is), nobody it's changing this model unless Apple do it. Don't see the change coming from google or Microsoft. Also on PCs you can bypass app stores but on mobile it's harder to do.

  • @Sebastian said:

    It's also not possible to link to an external website for donations. Anything that could theoretically be offered as an in-app purchase needs to also be offered as such, or cannot be advertised for at all. That's why you can't buy any books in the kindle app.

    Ah, that makes sense. I know some of it is in the name of security, but some of it is also apple doing what they do (which they do well) by making the iBook app and iBook store able to link.

    However, kindle is also an interesting example, as is all of Amazon, because you can buy music, movies, books, etc on Amazon and then their respective apps will download them directly. Strange that for music creation apps the same isn't allowed.

    Anyway, if a great app that's going to be really useful comes out with no sale I will buy it. I'm trying to avoid the "toy" apps these days. By toy, I mean apps that dont need to do what I do but are cool and fun, not a reflection on the quality of the app

  • razraz
    edited December 2015

    @lovedamusic Using the iPad for music's not that cheap, unless you use only a few instruments.

    Logic X is 200 EUR and FL Studio Producer is 189 EUR. The iPad by itself will cost you more than that.

  • @raz said:

    @lovedamusic Using the iPad for music's not that cheap, unless you use only a few instruments.

    Logic X is 200 EUR and FL Studio Producer is 189 EUR. The iPad by itself will cost you more than that.


    I have Logic. It's a miraculous bargain, I think.

    I'm just talking about software. The cost of the iPad isn't relevant, but my iMac was a lot more money. A big part of the iPad's appeal for me is that it's mobile. However, I don't think I could get all the versatility and excellent sounding content on the desktop that I have on the iPad for so little money. In fact, I bought a lot of Alchemy content for way less than it cost for the desktop version---I didn't know at the time that it would be included for free someday with Logic. I could get SampleTank and content for much less on the iPad. Is there anything like Gadget or iM1 on desktop for that cheap? MTS is less on the iPad. I could go on... I don't buy lots of apps; just ones I believe I'll use.


  • edited December 2015

    You get tons of free software for desktop which are no toys too, like U-he synths, delays, reverbs, midi tools... whatever.
    But back to the topic i also don't buy much apps anymore. Nearly no app in the last months. This is my decision because of iOS unstable nature, fast changes, new introduced limits, not much "pro" apps, searching in the huge store sucks.
    Just look at the top selling apps and you know where the future is in the app store.
    It's with everything. If i must work for less money and other trouble, there is a point where i think if it's worth to go on or should i look somewhere else?!
    Apple has a monopol and that is really bad for consumers and developers.
    I'm finally out of their game :neutral:

  • Ultimately I think the Surface Pro, will make Apple take less for granted the lead they have had in the 'Pro' touch mobile market, this is the nature of competition.
  • My 2 cents, but I think the itunes model is only geared to IAPs that are consumable - music apps, and I mean any music app, bearly makes any money for indie devs, and bigger corporations have more staff & overheads such as advertising so they probably make losses.
    Why doesn't Itunes have a sub-category for music like games - because Apple doesn't really care, why should when it doesn't earn them anything.
    Music apps are very much the poor relation - I know because $10 of sales can put you in the top 100 albeit briefly, this means lots of great apps are not getting purchased, and the itunes model requires low price high-volume - unfortunately I do wonder if the volume just isn't there anymore?

    But it's not just money devs slave away on their apps for - I made sure I created something I wanted to use first. It's kept me sane!


  • I noticed the redone Seline app has a 'buy tokens' feature that doesn't actually get you anything, it's purely to support the dev. Someone should graft that on to Samplr and we'll all chip in and take it to a higher level. 
  • Apple may not care about the money that apps bring in,  but I do think they care about the prestige it brings to IOS,  this in turn drives sales of the devices. 
  • @kobamoto said:
    seems like the linchpin would be clearly knowing what the updates entail, this protects the users and the devs because the devs will know whether people will want to pay for those features or not.
    Explaining what kind of features an update includes is no problem at all. But from a developer's perspective, it's always a gamble. You can either make that feature and hope enough users buy it, or you assume it's not worth it and work on something else.

     The right way to do it would be to make something like a Kickstarter, see if there's demand, then if the demand is there make it.

     Then there would need to be some sort of login system in the app to unlock that feature for the Kickstarter backers. Tricky but doable.
    I'm all for that,  transparency and reward and if the devs adhere to the timelines they've set it would be a done deal.
    No more giving the devs headaches about what's going to be in the app, no more going crazy over wondering when an app is going to arrive etc... this definitely works for me, maybe I'm missing something but it seems so easy like it should already be that way. Maybe it just goes against the ethos of the shroud of mystery that surrounds software development , feature expectations, and release dates but I just wanna make music.
  • I would suggest that the app store model is poisonous in many ways (the ‘review’ mechanism is incorrect, for a start). I consider that the on-offer price of an app is a sort of investment, so I’ll buy apps when they’re cheap and simply not use them, sitting on them until one day I might want to use it. I regard the risk of buying it cheap and not using it ever to be worth it over deciding that I do want to use it and having to pay full price whenever that might happen (of course, not buying it at all would be the obvious winning strategy, but who does that?). 

    I think that music apps (and perhaps any serious or productive or non-entertainment apps) should be subscription. You pay for the app, but you’re really only buying a year’s use (or something like a year) from whenever you start the payment. If you don’t renew you might end up skipping a year or two (functionality stops and updates cease). But when you decide you do want to use it, you renew and you’re back in, you then get the updated version, and off you go again.

    If one or two apps enforced such a subscription model, I’d rebel against it and be quite pissed off about it. But if it were widespread and generally the norm, I think I’d be quite happy to go along with it and accept it as normal.
  • @Lacm1993 said:
    The google play store and the Windows store or any other AppStore on android take 30% of every app sale like the App Store?. Or allow a more direct way for developers to communicate with costumers?, paid updates or demo versions exist? 

    Google takes 30% too. And they don't support paid updates. The major advantage Google Play store has over Apple App store is that you can easily get a refund during the first 2 hours after purchase. I wish App store had this awesome feature - no need for a demo version, you can try the full version and get a refund if it does not work for you


  • Here's an interesting article on the app store problems as seen by some developers: http://www.theverge.com/2015/11/19/9757516/ipad-pro-apps-pricing-ios-developers-opt-out
  • edited December 2015
    Tony @midiSequencer ;makes a good point that I made elsewhere too. I imagine - though I don't have hard evidence for it - that many (if not most) indie music app developers develop the apps they do in what is really a niche market not as a means of obtaining significant income (not that they don't expect to obtain income - they do - I do) but because they desire to produce something worthwhile for fellow musicians and are doing something they love doing along the way. I don't mean they are doing so as a hobby vs. a business, but that they wouldn't be doing it at all if they were not motivated by the field itself in a particularly dedicated way.

    As I've jumped on the development bandwagon, like Tony I'm focused on producing something first of all that I have an interest in and want to use.

    I'm not saying that's true of everyone, but I think it might be a different motivation than the typical game developer who may be thinking of mass sales / low cost profit ahead of other concerns perhaps.

    Just $0.02 :)

    Along with that, I think that we enjoy the privilege that the music apps we use are often of the highest quality among apps available on the app store, often produced by one-person entities vs. big companies like Korg, Steinberg etc.

    As I manage the iPads in Music Education group, I still find music teachers balk at paying more than a couple of dollars for music apps there, and would often not even dream of paying $50 for Auria Pro - or even $20 - or even $10 - or, yes, even $5! That's "too expensive" for them. It's an attitude that's prevalent among many and fostered by the app store prices in general.

    I am happy in general to pay the prices we do for music apps on the iPad - although I must say, that I do find those that range above $50 to often price themselves out of even my thinking because they begin to put themselves in the same market (even then still often a factor of 10 less) as desktop applications, and there are many situations at those higher prices I'd elect to buy a larger "more functional" (often) desktop application / VST. That's especially true with music applications that come with large sample libraries such as orchestral applications / VSTs.

    Having said that there have been a couple of occasions where I've purchased an app for the iPad then also spent money on a desktop equivalent or companion - like Z3TA+ and Synthmaster (full desktop version). Why? Because I've been so impressed with the iPad version. Not true in every case. I still only have the iPad version of iMS-20 for example; the desktop version does not sound as good in the videos I've seen and comparing the two.

    I'd also add though @u0421793 that I strongly dislike the idea of any subscription model where something stops working. I would drop iPad apps in a heartbeat if things went that way. I do not "purchase" (rent) any desktop applications that have started offering such subscription models. Never will. If I have already paid for something that works I expect it to continue working, and I'll pay more to upgrade if I desire to. I have no objection however to a periodic IAP upgrade price as we have for Auria Pro this time out. (The only issue for me with that was the amount - a tad higher than anticipated by many including me - and that only because of end-of-year budgetary constraints in the budget from my music business set aside for apps. I'll upgrade but not just yet).
  • Glad my post sparked some debate. Lots of interesting points. Definitely seems like Apple may need to reconsider some of their policies if they truly want the ipad to be a "pro" platform. There are lots of good signs the sky is not falling such as Korg, Yamaha and Steinberg being in the game, Apple bothering to develop IAA and Audio Units and the fact that Apple (despite us being a niche market) has used the bohemian musician as a Marketing tool in ads many times over.
    I think there is good reason to be hopeful that things will stay viable on iOS for music making
  • @supadom said:
    The prices can (at least) double as far as I'm concerned but trial versions should be available for people to be able to determine whether the app works for them.

    Please know that all app developers would love to offer trial versions but Apple's guidelines don't allow us to.

    I'm thinking hard about how to work around the shortcomings of the App Store (no paid upgrades, no bundling of apps with other developer's apps, etc.) 


  • @Sebastian In relation to the above I was wondering why if developers want to offer free trials of their apps why more are not doing timed out versions like SidTracker64Free and NeoSoul Keys (Full functionality including AB compatibility but prompts to pay after 2 mins playing one of the elec pianos)
  • Another good idea I know of only one developer that has done is the way of selling multiple instances of an effect app by having different version with various upgrade to full version options. AD480 I believe you can potentially have 3 full versions useable at same time by upgrading free version and basic versions and buying full version
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