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Comments
@Rhism I don't know of anything that does what you suggest. In my opinion, whatever your original design philosophy, you have by coincidence ended up with a superbly suitable interface for playing what I have in mind. You only lack the engine and the configuration mechanism.
Yes, it would require a level of abstraction for handling string selections, but allocating selected strings from the lowest string upwards on each change would suffice, and alternative pattern strategies for different numbers of strings need not be so complicated.
@PaulB & @Rhism
Take a look at the auto play on this 12 String Guitar App:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/12-string-guitar/id466951566?mt=8
See if that works like you're thinking...
Although it is sequenced and the chords are kinda chunky in the player...
@Rhism I will try to post an image tomorrow.
I like Guitarism pretty much the way it is and I think the design is well thought out. Of course I realize there could be certain changes that could perhaps improve it and I would be all for that. As with a real guitar I have practiced with the way Guitarism is set up and feel I have gotten quite good at playing it.
Just lost an hour to the random button. [High Fives @Rhism]
This feature reminds me of comment 666 in this thread: http://forum.audiob.us/discussion/279/guitarism-is-on-the-bus/p14#Item_666
@rhism I use 'parallel chords' as my default in Chordion as it has maj/min of every note. I also use Major, Minor and the "with sevenths" counterparts.
Photo as promised.
When sitting woth the iPad next to me on the couch, the left hand is not lying down as much, but still coming in from the left rather than from below.
@Yendor Yep I've used that app (I think it and guitarism are the only 2 apps that offer a 12-string electric guitar) - it appears closest to what @PaulB is suggesting though I think less adaptable than what he's talking about. Paul?
@jfeheley Appreciate the vote of confidence! Out of curiosity do you use guitarism more for composing music or for playing songs (with predefined chord structures etc)?
@syrupcore Lol good to hear! I remember that immortal comment
Your choice of Chordion scales matches the ones that seem most useful to me. Another question: when you're playing guitarism and you reach for a chord that isn't there, what type of chord is that? Is it typically a more complex variation of a primary chord in your key (e.g. a 7th, 9th etc) or more often an off-key chord (e.g. a Bb major while playing in the key of C major)? I'm trying to gauge the appropriate balance (in a potential composer mode) between just having all 12 major and 12 minor chords (full chromatic range, no complex chords) vs being more focused on the chords in a particular key but offering many complex chord types on each primary chord (7ths, 9ths, dim/aug variants, inversions etc).
@mmp This photo is super-useful - thanks a lot! It brings up a point @Ryan was making to me offline - ergonomically speaking, hands and arms are often more comfortable if they angle toward each other (and toward your body's center-line) rather than both being parallel to each other pointing outwards. Worth asking the question for everyone who plays guitarism flat on the table/lap: do you usually have your chord hand coming up from the bottom (as in my and @mgmg4871's pics) or from the side (as in @mmp's pic)?
@Rhism Glad to be of help. When I try to play with my hand coming up from the bottom edge I feel like I have to tuck my elbow in in an unnatural manner; it would probably be even worse on a phone. But obviously that's different for others, and there might even be other ways as well, like the hand curling in from above, in the way lefties tend to write.
@rhism Mostly that the root chord isn't there. Like, my mind hears Bb but I only have variations on A/C/F/G/A#/E up.
A# can often sound quite a Bb...
@Rhism My playing position is closer to yours, coming up from the bottom, but I think that is more dictated by the current layout, and the positioning of the secondary chord bars - most of my music requires more than six chords. I assume that whatever layout you end up going for, that custom chords will also be an option.
@PhilW I do want to do something in the main performance interface for songs that have more than 6 primary chords. Some kind of live switch that can do a fast-preset change to e.g. go from verse to chorus to bridge which would allow more chords as well as key change, fx toggles etc. Lmk what your thoughts are on this.
For composer mode I'm thinking it should ideally have no concept of presets - the act of configuring a specific preset feels counter-intuitive to the goal of exploration and experimentation. So I'm not sure how user-config and custom chords etc should fit into this. But interested to hear everyone's thoughts.
@syrupcore Sounds like a composer mode that has 24 buttons (all the majors and minors) would suit you well. And then maybe a couple of modifiers to turn any chord into a 7th or 9th or suspended etc. Thoughts?
@mmp I agree with your point about awkward elbow positioning in the 'vertical hold'. If you don't mind I'd like you to try an experiment
Try to:
1) Rotate your iPad 45 degrees clockwise (so it's at an angle to you, and the bottom-right corner points at your body)
2) Bring your left hand up from the bottom of the iPad (but at an angle to your body) to reach the chord buttons
3) Bring your right hand over to the strings by reaching over the right edge of the iPad (also at an angle to your body)
Now both your hands would be pointed inwards relative to your body, with your left arm aligned vertically relative to the iPad, and the right arm aligned horizontally (parallel to the strings). How does this feel wrt comfort and playability?
@Rhism Sorry for taking so long with the examples! These are examples of songs that show the benefit of faster strumming capability:
I could just about play the Dirty Heads stuff as is, but reducing space between strings could probably tighten up this one too.
The styles that benefit most from this is Funk and Ska (and just about anything by Nile Rodgers ;-) ).
@Rhism said:
Just my thoughts on this....
If possible and workable, it would be much better to not have to "fast-preset change" during a song to access chords--effects on the other hand, this would be really cool! I can imagine pressing a button and going from an clean part to an over-driven part within a song!
I really think that as far as chords go, WI Guitar had it right. Check out the layout that they use. Make the 9 chords configurable, and then the other buttons allow for all the rest. That's a LOT of chords immediately from the front screen, in a very easy to use format!
@Rhism - a couple of more thoughts of features
Alternate tunings (e.g. drop tunings, Nashville tuning, Open tunings), nothing to crazy ;-)
Also, I agree with @syrupcore on the missing chords when writing/creating new music. I end up switching to my guitar (if I have one with me). Unfortunately I can't really say what chords have ended up being missing.
You asked for feedback - in performance mode, I tend to agree with @Audiojunkie that changing sounds would be better than changing the chord layout mid song, I think for most songs the current arrangement of secondary chords works fine.
For composer mode, I would prefer maybe 12 main chords, one for each root note, which relate to a particular key and so a mix of major and minor, but with an option button to switch to the alternative (major to minor and vice versa). Then additional buttons for other variations - sus4, 7th, maj 7, etc.
What am I missing? How do you assign your own choice of chords to the individual chord boxes? Also, I heard "composer mode" mentioned, but I don't see it.
@rhism said " @syrupcore Sounds like a composer mode that has 24 buttons (all the majors and minors) would suit you well. And then maybe a couple of modifiers to turn any chord into a 7th or 9th or suspended etc. Thoughts?"
Yep, perfect provided the layout feels natural. A 24 square grid with 2-4 modifiers isn't it though. A feel like there has been a lot of innovation in the iOS space on alternative chord layouts and chordsets based on music theory I barely understand (just ask @jmsexton) but I don't have any solid examples in my mind. I know they're out there and I'm confident @mgmg4872 owns them.
I would like to see larger sets than 6 of chords that 'make sense' together without having to always navigate the kitchen sink of 24 maj/min chords. To that end, I hope composer mode does not lose presets and I hope chordsets can be variable in size.
One method that older living room organs with accompaniment used to get the most out of a fixed sized accompaniment range was this: first note was major chord accompaniment. If you held any second note above it it became minor. Third note = 7th, fourth = m7th. May sound weird but it was very playable with a tiny bit of practice. Lots of Casio type things did the same. Some organs also had a metal palm bar that you could press down while you played and it did essentially the same. Palm == minor, palm plus a second note == m7th.
A possibly cool composer mode feature: random chords with locking. I hit random, find a few chords in the set that sound good together. I somehow 'lock' those, hit random again and the other chords are randomized around them. Plod on, discover, lock, randomize ... Bam, rock opera! I'd reallllly want to save that as a preset. Recall is good.
@Ben said:
To change chords, open the menu and hit 'chords'. Tap a box on the left and select a new chord from the menu. Changes immediately and you can test in place.
Composer mode doesn't exist yet. We're just discussing possible futures.
Got my iPhone 5C today! Immediately downloaded Guitarism. It is a totally different playing experience from an iPad. I find the most comfortable playing while holding it with my first 3 fingers of each hand (index and ring finger on the sides and middle finger under it) and using my thumbs to play.
@Rhism - I didn't notice it on the iPad (but it does it also). The smart strings on the iPhone don't always compress to the middle of the screen. I assume it's intensional.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
@Rhism Thanks, turning the iPad clockwise is quite a good suggestion!
I actually had experimented with the iPad angled counter-clockwise earlier, which is OK for the chord hand but lousy for strumming...
To be honest, I'm left wondering why I have never tried it the clockwise way, it makes the secondary chord bars are easier to reach as well!
One of my favorite chordsets, and layouts is in Compenendo. Not sure how that would work in Guitarism though.
http://www.componendo.eu/movieus/MOVIE.html
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/componendo-music-arranger/id459706264?mt=8
@Rhism. I use Guitarism for composing music, and playing songs.
@audiojunkie Thanks for the examples! Can you also share a sample of how the Dirty Heads track sounds if you play it on guitarism today? Also can you elaborate on why you don't like the idea of changing chord presets mid-song?
Mid-song effects preset switch is definitely very interesting and a common scenario, definitely should do that.
Wrt chord layout, WI Guitar has probably the best composition-oriented layout in guitar app today, though I'd hope to do a couple things better
Many of the non-guitar chord apps have some good ideas too.
@Ganthofer Yep your iPhone 'hold' is exactly what it's designed for! Smart Strings compress to wherever you're playing from, but if you're strumming you basically shouldn't have to think about it. Can you elaborate on how alt tunings would impact the way you play specific chords in guitarism? The idea confuses me since tunings shouldn't be relevant when you're pressing buttons for chords...
@syrupcore I had a Casio VL-Tone keyboard back in the day too
How natural do you find Chordion's parallel chords layout? I can think of tons of layout options, lots of room to innovate. Wrt the random+lock concept, how many chord boxes would you want in that kind of experience?
I think if I do guitarism composer I should aim to make it rich and full-featured enough to be its own separate app - not a sprawling, complex app but a good single-function experience (like the AUFX school of app design). So think along those lines as you guys make suggestions.
@jfeheley When composing music in guitarism how often do you run into the "the chord I want isn't there" situation? When it does happen is it usually a complex chord type in the given key, or an off-key chord?
@Rhism - tunings wouldn't affect how one plays, just a different sound. Some Chord notes are doubled, notes in different registers, etc. If that makes sense.
I'm imagining the lock+random would work regardless of layout type/size.
Another lock idea: lock n chords and then instead of randomizing the rest, ask Guitarism to find me complimentary chords (based on that music theory math I don't get). Like color palette generators.
@rhism said "How natural do you find Chordion's parallel chords layout?"
Very. And that's because I'm a pretty simple guy who likes to write pretty simple songs and the relative positions of chords that naturally 'sound good together' in that layout make sense and make for easy playing. Certainly more productive/easier than a purely chromatic layout would be. I get that it's just a bit different (where bit == previously mentioned music theory math) than the relative mode but I'm not exactly sure how. For my purposes, they are essentially the same.
Another use for the lock feature (thanks, I'll be here all week): going from kitchen sink layouts to simplified/focussed layouts. I hit the 'lock' button, play my song, anything I touched is now set to locked. Afterwards, I hit 'delete unlocked' and I get a simpler layout with (possibly?) larger buttons.
Also can't wait for the day when I can use Chordion's smart scale feature right hand side while triggering Guitarism with the hex grid via MIDI! Don't know if that'll me part of phase one of your eventual MIDI IN implementation (it would presumably need to also have strumming patterns and tempo awareness for this use case to make sense) but yeah, that'd be an awful lot of musical fun.