behringer came to wipe the the floor with korg / Crave

u0421793

3.5mm jacks are the normal size for patchchords.

knewspeak

@RUST( i )K said:

@Sonicflux said:

@RUST( i )K said:

@brambos said:

@RUST( i )K said:
How does this "hurt" other manufacturers?

Unless someone is a share holder or employee of a competing company there is no rational reason why a good product at an affordable price is anything less than a good thing.

Put simply, because people who have no insights in the R&D and manufacturing costs of these products will think Behringer products are fairly priced and all other brands are just ripping them off. It skewes the perception of the gear-buying public. Of course that's going to hurt the industry. There's a reason why 'dumping' is considered an illegal trade practice by the WTO: same principle.

When the Volca Modular was announced people thought that was a great value proposition. 5 days later people are saying it's overpriced. See what happened there?

R & D for synths being reworked by BHriger.

Rx and tech I get.

But we are talking synths that for the most part are 10 or 20 years old. Not much R and D there as far as I see.

Not so much.

Frankly, the people I see commenting are nothing more than music enthusiasts who buy apps like your because they love to make music. I see people happy to have an affordable option.

I am no fan of the WTO to be honest. I don't think a synth for $300 is an issue unless a 10 year old is making it. And if the kid is fed well, its cool with me. (kidding)

I am a fan of economist like Porter who really nailed this sort of thing on his generic market strategies and competition models.

I will add this. iPhone.

I almost see MOOG getting to that point.

Where we don't get new versions of products much because then the old version would need to be a lower price point.

So instead of doing new and improved versions that would lower market value of items like say the Sub or Mother ....they stay hard on those prices with the same item.

That's cool. The items are the best in the industry as far as I think.

But they can't have products of this age and never make new versions and expect to keep prices going up.

I don't see how MOOG can have products that are the same product and keep raising prices each year.

Know why they could?

Because no company did what Behringer did.

Notice the Sirin. Moog sees the market trends.

Market challenges are a good thing for my money and my view on things.

I think it is a little premature to get out the Kleenex for the big international companies who make synths at this point.

I also don't think talking down on people who are adventurous enough to give a new product a try and praise it if it deserves.

I don't think people are ignorant or lack music abilities or taste by loving the new affordable products from any company.

Maybe if apps like yours won't so damn good these price options wouldn't exist..... LOL

Holy crap. Why are you so bad at simple formatting?

I bought one of those super cheap computers for like 80% less than its competitor.

Keys don't always work.......

u0421793

Personally, I’d rather pay a decent amount for a synth (they’ve always been expensive, why should the younger generations get off lightly?) and know (or hope) that it lasts long enough to sell many decades later with good resale value. If a glut of cheaply made synths flood the market, the investment will evapourate during the first owner’s tenure of it.

I mean, it’s bad enough all of us spending so much on iOS apps which won’t get more valuable as they get older and are non-transferable so that there’s no secondhand market for them (and sometimes they just disappear anyway). You’d think that some people would want a more secure rock-solid basis for pouring money into in the hope that some of it can be reclaimed later.

On the other hand, when I was skint a few years ago, I’d have cheered on the cheapo synth movement (actually probably not, same wisdom underneath).

klownshed

@knewspeak said:

In scale your correct, but again, I reiterate, ethically, very similar, but at least, Behringer have engaged with the music scene, to decide what they would like produced. A lesson that Apple could well learn.

That made me chuckle. Whilst the media seemed to go crazy over Apple missing their (own) targets, last quarter was the 2nd biggest profit made by any company ever. It just happened to be less than their same quarter last year.

I don’t think a company that made over $80 billion in profit in three months needs to learn too many lessons on business from Behringer.

As I said before, Apple and Behringer couldn’t be more different in ethics or business model. That’s not a bad thing, I don’t think too many companies would survive if they copied Apple’s structure.

Also, If Apple were to concentrate on us as a group it would not make a ripple in their earnings, much as it would be nice for us all.

Luckily most of the products that appeal to the likes of us come from a wide range of different companies, from one man bands to the biggest corporations in history.

RUST( i )K

@u0421793 said:
Personally, I’d rather pay a decent amount for a synth (they’ve always been expensive, why should the younger generations get off lightly?) and know (or hope) that it lasts long enough to sell many decades later with good resale value. If a glut of cheaply made synths flood the market, the investment will evapourate during the first owner’s tenure of it.

I mean, it’s bad enough all of us spending so much on iOS apps which won’t get more valuable as they get older and are non-transferable so that there’s no secondhand market for them (and sometimes they just disappear anyway). You’d think that some people would want a more secure rock-solid basis for pouring money into in the hope that some of it can be reclaimed later.

On the other hand, when I was skint a few years ago, I’d have cheered on the cheapo synth movement (actually probably not, same wisdom underneath).

Time will tell.

Once the magic trick is known, hard to get the same reaction from the crowd.

I think it will be cool to watch.

I think you have an amazing point about the apps as well.

I don't think these synths can be called cheapo.

I mean the Pocket Operators are $80 and they are amazing products.

So maybe the doubters will be proved wrong.

Everything I read and see about the other synths that Bger has released are making people happy.

We shall see

RUST( i )K

@supadom said:

Moot point.

supadom

@knewspeak said:

@supadom said:

@knewspeak said:

@syrupcore said:
I like cheap synths too. That's why I buy almost everything used.

Unfortunately this doesn’t fund the manufacturer of the synths.

It does indirectly. Easily the guy who sells gear second hand buys other gear with the funds.

Or drugs, or to subscribe to Apples latest subscription model

You're right, drugs. Now that we have more food banks the bottom tier don't have to worry about buying food anymore.

CalCutta

@knewspeak said:
In scale your correct, but again, I reiterate, ethically, very similar, but at least, Behringer have engaged with the music scene, to decide what they would like produced. A lesson that Apple could well learn.

The implication that Apple and Behringer are ethically comparable in their product development is one of the dumbest things I've heard in a very long time.

Apple will purchase the companies which produce technology they'd like to co-opt for their products.

Behringer outright steals technology from other companies after they've already released it. There are several lawsuits on record which both corroborate this claim, and show that Behringer broke the law and had to stop production on those products.

robosardine

@u0421793 said:
Personally, I’d rather pay a decent amount for a synth (they’ve always been expensive, why should the younger generations get off lightly?) and know (or hope) that it lasts long enough to sell many decades later with good resale value. If a glut of cheaply made synths flood the market, the investment will evapourate during the first owner’s tenure of it.

I mean, it’s bad enough all of us spending so much on iOS apps which won’t get more valuable as they get older and are non-transferable so that there’s no secondhand market for them (and sometimes they just disappear anyway). You’d think that some people would want a more secure rock-solid basis for pouring money into in the hope that some of it can be reclaimed later.

On the other hand, when I was skint a few years ago, I’d have cheered on the cheapo synth movement (actually probably not, same wisdom underneath).

Great idea- I think I’ll give it a year or two then see how much they are going for on ebay 👀

knewspeak

@CalCutta said:

@knewspeak said:
In scale your correct, but again, I reiterate, ethically, very similar, but at least, Behringer have engaged with the music scene, to decide what they would like produced. A lesson that Apple could well learn.

The implication that Apple and Behringer are ethically comparable in their product development is one of the dumbest things I've heard in a very long time.

Apple will purchase the companies which produce technology they'd like to co-opt for their products.

Behringer outright steals technology from other companies after they've already released it. There are several lawsuits on record which both corroborate this claim, and show that Behringer broke the law and had to stop production on those products.

And no law suits against Apple doing the very same thing?

klownshed

@knewspeak said:
And no law suits against Apple doing the very same thing?

Not really. They did settle a case about the Touch ID sensor but I don’t recall any cases similar to ones against behringer for ripping off Mackie et al. Perhaps you could name one?

Apple did win a big lawsuit against Samsung for copying them though. The lawsuit against Microsoft didn’t go too well though.

You may not like the way Apple do business but they have not copied other competitors products in the way Behringer have/do.

not even Samsung copy as boldly as behringer. Behringer have literally copied entire designs down to the PcB. When have Apple ever done that?

knewspeak

@klownshed said:

@knewspeak said:
And no law suits against Apple doing the very same thing?

Not really. They did settle a case about the Touch ID sensor but I don’t recall any cases similar to ones against behringer for ripping off Mackie et al. Perhaps you could name one?

Apple did win a big lawsuit against Samsung for copying them though. The lawsuit against Microsoft didn’t go too well though.

You may not like the way Apple do business but they have not copied other competitors products in the way Behringer have/do.

not even Samsung copy as boldly as behringer. Behringer have literally copied entire designs down to the PcB. When have Apple ever done that?

If you search the web you’ll find lots of litigation for and against and counter-suits, most gets settled some disclosed some not, it’s not theft, is it, if you takes something first, then make a settlement to pay later.

ExAsperis99

@knewspeak said:

@klownshed said:

@knewspeak said:
And no law suits against Apple doing the very same thing?

Not really. They did settle a case about the Touch ID sensor but I don’t recall any cases similar to ones against behringer for ripping off Mackie et al. Perhaps you could name one?

Apple did win a big lawsuit against Samsung for copying them though. The lawsuit against Microsoft didn’t go too well though.

You may not like the way Apple do business but they have not copied other competitors products in the way Behringer have/do.

not even Samsung copy as boldly as behringer. Behringer have literally copied entire designs down to the PcB. When have Apple ever done that?

If you search the web you’ll find lots of litigation for and against and counter-suits, most gets settled some disclosed some not, it’s not theft, is it, if you takes something first, then make a settlement to pay later.

You're not making any sense. Apple no doubt has brutal business practices; I'm sure you don't be come a trillion-dollar multinational by playing by the rules. But they simply do not indulge in the zero-creativity ripoff game that Behringer does. It's an absurd comparison.

A better question: Does it matter that Behringer rips off "antique" synthesizers? Reasonable people can disagree on that.

espiegel123

@knewspeak : Even Apple's biggest competitors and pretty much everyone in the industry (even if they hated Steve Jobs personally) acknowledges that under Steve Jobs, Apple was one of the most innovative companies ever and that Steve influenced technology and culture (for better or worse) in a profound way. Is Apple the same company with him gone? Probably not. To imply that Behringer has comparable is hard to take seriously.

knewspeak

@ExAsperis99 said:

@knewspeak said:

@klownshed said:

@knewspeak said:
And no law suits against Apple doing the very same thing?

Not really. They did settle a case about the Touch ID sensor but I don’t recall any cases similar to ones against behringer for ripping off Mackie et al. Perhaps you could name one?

Apple did win a big lawsuit against Samsung for copying them though. The lawsuit against Microsoft didn’t go too well though.

You may not like the way Apple do business but they have not copied other competitors products in the way Behringer have/do.

not even Samsung copy as boldly as behringer. Behringer have literally copied entire designs down to the PcB. When have Apple ever done that?

If you search the web you’ll find lots of litigation for and against and counter-suits, most gets settled some disclosed some not, it’s not theft, is it, if you takes something first, then make a settlement to pay later.

You're not making any sense. Apple no doubt has brutal business practices; I'm sure you don't be come a trillion-dollar multinational by playing by the rules. But they simply do not indulge in the zero-creativity ripoff game that Behringer does. It's an absurd comparison.

A better question: Does it matter that Behringer rips off "antique" synthesizers? Reasonable people can disagree on that.

So Apple not playing by the rules, Okay.
Behringer not playing by the rules, Vile.
And I’m dumb and irrational?

ExAsperis99

@knewspeak said:

@ExAsperis99 said:

@knewspeak said:

@klownshed said:

@knewspeak said:
And no law suits against Apple doing the very same thing?

Not really. They did settle a case about the Touch ID sensor but I don’t recall any cases similar to ones against behringer for ripping off Mackie et al. Perhaps you could name one?

Apple did win a big lawsuit against Samsung for copying them though. The lawsuit against Microsoft didn’t go too well though.

You may not like the way Apple do business but they have not copied other competitors products in the way Behringer have/do.

not even Samsung copy as boldly as behringer. Behringer have literally copied entire designs down to the PcB. When have Apple ever done that?

If you search the web you’ll find lots of litigation for and against and counter-suits, most gets settled some disclosed some not, it’s not theft, is it, if you takes something first, then make a settlement to pay later.

You're not making any sense. Apple no doubt has brutal business practices; I'm sure you don't be come a trillion-dollar multinational by playing by the rules. But they simply do not indulge in the zero-creativity ripoff game that Behringer does. It's an absurd comparison.

A better question: Does it matter that Behringer rips off "antique" synthesizers? Reasonable people can disagree on that.

So Apple not playing by the rules, Okay.
Behringer not playing by the rules, Vile.
And I’m dumb and irrational?

What? No, Apple not playing by the rules is not O.K.
It too, I guess, is "vile." But otherwise these two companies have little in common.

Will

@RUST( i )K said:
I bought one of those super cheap computers for like 80% less than its competitor.

Keys don't always work.......

There is no "solid slow clap" emoji but if there were...

knewspeak

@ExAsperis99 said:

@knewspeak said:

@ExAsperis99 said:

@knewspeak said:

@klownshed said:

@knewspeak said:
And no law suits against Apple doing the very same thing?

Not really. They did settle a case about the Touch ID sensor but I don’t recall any cases similar to ones against behringer for ripping off Mackie et al. Perhaps you could name one?

Apple did win a big lawsuit against Samsung for copying them though. The lawsuit against Microsoft didn’t go too well though.

You may not like the way Apple do business but they have not copied other competitors products in the way Behringer have/do.

not even Samsung copy as boldly as behringer. Behringer have literally copied entire designs down to the PcB. When have Apple ever done that?

If you search the web you’ll find lots of litigation for and against and counter-suits, most gets settled some disclosed some not, it’s not theft, is it, if you takes something first, then make a settlement to pay later.

You're not making any sense. Apple no doubt has brutal business practices; I'm sure you don't be come a trillion-dollar multinational by playing by the rules. But they simply do not indulge in the zero-creativity ripoff game that Behringer does. It's an absurd comparison.

A better question: Does it matter that Behringer rips off "antique" synthesizers? Reasonable people can disagree on that.

So Apple not playing by the rules, Okay.
Behringer not playing by the rules, Vile.
And I’m dumb and irrational?

What? No, Apple not playing by the rules is not O.K.
It too, I guess, is "vile." But otherwise these two companies have little in common.

This for a lot of companies is the way of business, not just these two, it would be simply naivety not to see this. Where they cross the line of ‘vile’ is forgotten/forgiven if it can be thought of purposeful in service of the greater good, even if that service is really just a selfish need.

ExAsperis99

@knewspeak said:

@ExAsperis99 said:

@knewspeak said:

@ExAsperis99 said:

@knewspeak said:

@klownshed said:

@knewspeak said:
And no law suits against Apple doing the very same thing?

Not really. They did settle a case about the Touch ID sensor but I don’t recall any cases similar to ones against behringer for ripping off Mackie et al. Perhaps you could name one?

Apple did win a big lawsuit against Samsung for copying them though. The lawsuit against Microsoft didn’t go too well though.

You may not like the way Apple do business but they have not copied other competitors products in the way Behringer have/do.

not even Samsung copy as boldly as behringer. Behringer have literally copied entire designs down to the PcB. When have Apple ever done that?

If you search the web you’ll find lots of litigation for and against and counter-suits, most gets settled some disclosed some not, it’s not theft, is it, if you takes something first, then make a settlement to pay later.

You're not making any sense. Apple no doubt has brutal business practices; I'm sure you don't be come a trillion-dollar multinational by playing by the rules. But they simply do not indulge in the zero-creativity ripoff game that Behringer does. It's an absurd comparison.

A better question: Does it matter that Behringer rips off "antique" synthesizers? Reasonable people can disagree on that.

So Apple not playing by the rules, Okay.
Behringer not playing by the rules, Vile.
And I’m dumb and irrational?

What? No, Apple not playing by the rules is not O.K.
It too, I guess, is "vile." But otherwise these two companies have little in common.

This for a lot of companies is the way of business, not just these two, it would be simply naivety not to see this. Where they cross the line of ‘vile’ is forgotten/forgiven if it can be thought of purposeful in service of the greater good, even if that service is really just a selfish need.

OK. All companies are bad. No further questions.

Will

@knewspeak said:
If you search the web you’ll find lots of litigation for and against and counter-suits, most gets settled some disclosed some not...

Think you'll want to apply your 'scale' qualifier here as well. It will apply in the reverse, obviously (your local Apple store probably did as much in business last year as Behringer did in the entire US).

ohwell

@brambos said:
Put simply, because people who have no insights in the R&D and manufacturing costs of these products will think Behringer products are fairly priced and all other brands are just ripping them off.

When the Volca Modular was announced people thought that was a great value proposition. 5 days later people are saying it's overpriced. See what happened there?

I agree with your main point.

I didn't notice the shift in people's take on the volca modular. I must say, though, from my perspective the crave highlights the very thing that made volca modular look unappealing to me from the get go: neither usb, nor midi input of any kind. The 1 redeeming feature of crave to me is that it hammers very hard the value of playing friendly with most synth setups: be it computer/ipad centered, midi hardware, or eurorack.

kobamoto

@ohwell said:

@brambos said:
Put simply, because people who have no insights in the R&D and manufacturing costs of these products will think Behringer products are fairly priced and all other brands are just ripping them off.

When the Volca Modular was announced people thought that was a great value proposition. 5 days later people are saying it's overpriced. See what happened there?

I agree with your main point.

I didn't notice the shift in people's take on the volca modular. I must say, though, from my perspective the crave highlights the very thing that made volca modular look unappealing to me from the get go: neither usb, nor midi input of any kind. The 1 redeeming feature of crave to me is that it hammers very hard the value of playing friendly with most synth setups: be it computer/ipad centered, midi hardware, or eurorack.

agree with this, the volcas are cool and all but for many have their own turn off valve. Just rubs some the wrong way, doesn't make a good comparison, or in laymen's terms the volcas ain't for everyone.

knewspeak

@syrupcore said:

@knewspeak said:
If you search the web you’ll find lots of litigation for and against and counter-suits, most gets settled some disclosed some not...

Think you'll want to apply your 'scale' qualifier here as well. It will apply in the reverse, obviously (your local Apple store probably did as much in business last year as Behringer did in the entire US).

Yes scale applies, and ethics or lack of. If I drop one plastic bottle into the ocean, could I claim to be more ethical than the person who drops in ten?

knewspeak

@ExAsperis99 said:

@knewspeak said:

@ExAsperis99 said:

@knewspeak said:

@ExAsperis99 said:

@knewspeak said:

@klownshed said:

@knewspeak said:
And no law suits against Apple doing the very same thing?

Not really. They did settle a case about the Touch ID sensor but I don’t recall any cases similar to ones against behringer for ripping off Mackie et al. Perhaps you could name one?

Apple did win a big lawsuit against Samsung for copying them though. The lawsuit against Microsoft didn’t go too well though.

You may not like the way Apple do business but they have not copied other competitors products in the way Behringer have/do.

not even Samsung copy as boldly as behringer. Behringer have literally copied entire designs down to the PcB. When have Apple ever done that?

If you search the web you’ll find lots of litigation for and against and counter-suits, most gets settled some disclosed some not, it’s not theft, is it, if you takes something first, then make a settlement to pay later.

You're not making any sense. Apple no doubt has brutal business practices; I'm sure you don't be come a trillion-dollar multinational by playing by the rules. But they simply do not indulge in the zero-creativity ripoff game that Behringer does. It's an absurd comparison.

A better question: Does it matter that Behringer rips off "antique" synthesizers? Reasonable people can disagree on that.

So Apple not playing by the rules, Okay.
Behringer not playing by the rules, Vile.
And I’m dumb and irrational?

What? No, Apple not playing by the rules is not O.K.
It too, I guess, is "vile." But otherwise these two companies have little in common.

This for a lot of companies is the way of business, not just these two, it would be simply naivety not to see this. Where they cross the line of ‘vile’ is forgotten/forgiven if it can be thought of purposeful in service of the greater good, even if that service is really just a selfish need.

OK. All companies are bad. No further questions.

Not all, but how many followed the lead of others, taking over smaller companies to acquire their knowledge or assets, rather than develop their own. Or offload production to other countries where workers are cheaper to hire, usually having less rights as well.

ohwell

@kobamoto It feels especially weird with volca modular, for me, because if it was easy to control via usb (or at least a crummy midi port) it would probably become my only hardware synth. (I say probably because I’m broke. Otherwise it would be a definitely. For now I’ll just stick to software.)

kobamoto

I recognize they've got a cult following though, some of my fav musicians use them too and make great music but I can't mess with one for more than 10 min it's just not my cup of tea. The crave on the other hand I could spend a day with

dustgod

We are probably all Apple customers... Probably in the top 1% of evil/unethical corporations. I actually hate Apple but they are the only (real) game in town for tablet music.

So we are on a forum about running apps (made by by and large good folks for the record) on devices made by wicked ********* talking about Behringer's ethics?

1nsomniak

@dustgod said:
We are probably all Apple customers... Probably in the top 1% of evil/unethical corporations. I actually hate Apple but they are the only (real) game in town for tablet music.

So we are on a forum about running apps (made by by and large good folks for the record) on devices made by wicked ********* talking about Behringer's ethics?

Ive been using a lot of satanic samples and imagery lately too,
Recent song titles: Soviet Occult Disco, The Dark Arts, Witch Hunter ...
This forum must be getting to me!

kobamoto

I've been eating too many carbs

Rich303

@RUST( i )K said:

When did Theodore Huxtable get into synths?