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Comments
Come on. This is Tucker Carlson-level gaslighting. I feel like you know this isn't true.
If used in any other context than to denote ice crystals I define ‘Snowflake’ as ‘a term used by arseholes to emphasise their lack of compassion prior to their well deserved comeuppance in the next avalanche’...
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Lynching, pogroms, gay-bashing, systematic discrimination = a single guy being uncoordinated.
Warning ⚠️ melt down approaching
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The issue that started this thread is mostly caused by the massive size of online communities. There's too much activity so moderation happens either with imperfect bots that don't have the intelligence to discern nuance or imperfect humans who are too busy and distracted by the volume of work to discern nuance.
Side anecdote: I was thinking of starting an Instagram account to post music snippets (since it takes me forever to actually finish stuff!) I logged on the other day to make my first post... and found my account had been suspended for violating their terms of service! Not a single post, no followers, my user name was just my initials and yet, somehow, I had violated something. Been trying to get this sorted, but I doubt it ever will; Instagram is too big for me to matter.
To the larger point re: "Freedom of Speech" - yes, you can, and should be able to, express yourself as you please. But there are a couple of things to consider:
0- I'm speaking from the context of the USA which has some of the strongest protections for speech.
1- that right is not unlimited - you can't say things that are "inciting or producing imminent lawless action and (are) likely to incite or cause such action", but you can talk about things like revolution in general terms, just not "true threats".
2- This is all related to the legal standing of speech. The government won't come after you for saying whatever you want, but there are no such affordances for society at large. You want to say something patently offensive? Go ahead, it's your right. But people who hear it and don't like it have just as much right to say things back to you. You want free speech right? It works both ways.
That's the crux of the issue and the part I find hilarious. The "anti-PC" crowd getting worked up into a tizzy because they get pushback from people who don't like what is being said. It's an attitude of "I can say what I want and you have to listen." No. You can say what you want and people can ignore you or they can respond. As long as they are not "inciting or producing imminent lawless action" or "likely to incite or cause such action" then it's fair game. That's how free speech works.
Don't like the response? Respond back. Make the case for why you're correct. It's supposed to be a marketplace of ideas, right?
3- The legal standing of free speech doesn't apply to private property. You say something in my house I don't like? I can kick you out. You say something in Facebook's "house" they don't like, they can kick you out. These massive online communities are trying to appeal to the largest cross section of society, so they will make policies that are are more restrictive than the government. Remember, the First Amendment allows the Westboro Baptist Church to picket funerals with signs celebrating the death of that person. Private communities aren't going to be as tolerant of speech if they want to keep a large audience.
Couple this with the issue I mentioned above regarding the problems of moderating and you get the unfortunate "false positives". But that's the price you pay if you want to play in walled gardens.
Whenever there's a discussion about this stuff there's the inevitable hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth that we're heading towards totalitarianism and "why can't it be like the good old days" and "how difficult it is navigating these fraught times". Anyone who studies censorship and speech knows that the world is facing threats to free speech, but that isn't coming from cultural wars where historically oppressed groups are starting to punch back against those who have been "punching down". It's happening because of actual totalitarian actions and restrictions of the press.
In regards to the arts, things have never been freer in places like the US. It wasn't that long ago that artists were being arrested for saying "indecent" and "immoral" things. The current "cancel" culture is a societal issue, not a state issue. It's important to understand the difference and not conflate the two.
Regarding the "good old days", it's important to remember that the good old days were good for select groups. "We used to make fun of each other" was mostly straight white men making fun of women, gays, blacks, latinos, etc. The fact these groups didn't "complain" was less a function of their being OK with it and more a function of their lack of societal standing to push back. Now they don't have to bite their tongues, and guess what? They aren't. Turnabout is fair play.
Regarding the "how difficult it is navigating these fraught times" line of discussion; it really isn't difficult. Listen to people, consider their perspective, ask questions if you're unsure. It really takes the tiniest of efforts to play nice with other people.
Hate speech is a legally defined term of art. It covers attacks, as Monzo has pointed out, driven by animus against a specific religious, ethnic, etc group. Your coy wondering why you weren't "entitled" — with scare quotes and all — because you were picked on for being a poor soccer player was ignorant and offensive. I'm not sure how pointing this out is harassment.
Because systematic stigmatization of identifiable groups has a very different impact than plain old making fun of someone or bullying among peers. People haven't historically been put in jail or sterilized or denied (non-soccer-related) jobs because they were bad at soccer. So, making fun of someone for being bad at soccer is different from targeting someone from a group that has historically suffered consequences for their demonization.
We are in an era where people that have historically been treated as less-than-human are sometimes achieving enough of a voice to be heard and part of that is recognition that it isn't ok to target people for being part of groups that have historically been the subject of discrimination and violence. The idea is finally becoming somewhat mainstream that widespread targeting of people for their ethnic background, sexual orientation and gender identification has historically led to these people being victims of violence with little recourse or protection. An argument (a strong one I believe) has been made that acceptance of what we call "hate speech" and failure to call it out as despicable is correlated with violence against such groups.
The recognition of hate speech as different from simple taunting by peers is some recognition that our societies have allowed classes of people to be discriminated against in ways that was perpetuated by tolerance of discriminatory language.
A lot of the pushback against the notion of hate speech comes from people that have trouble accepting that maybe historical norms of intolerance weren't ok.
We're devolving here... I'd shut it down to avoid additional damage.
Reddit became a cesspool and is trying to find ways to clean up their house.
I wold forgive overreach to achieve that end.
Snowflake is an extremely loaded term in today's online discourse and the reaction might even be a trigger for an automatic filter with a specific list of words that isn't questioned so they can manage the volume of online text to be scanned and addressed quickly.
I like it here where we are a small community focused on a narrow set of topics. This one is totally off track. It's a wedge issue that can only devolve into name calling and injury.
Who ever called out @Sevensystems for his views should consider an apology. Bullying is always a bad idea. Sometimes righteous indignation becomes indistinguishable from bullying for someone's public persona.
Majorities can be viewed as tyrannical by an injured minority... might does not make right. Context, nuance and empathy really help. Start with questions and listen. You might learn a different perspective.
@WillieNegus was good at this... So, long Willie.
Is Drambo done?
The @Blue_Mangoo amp sim?
That @Virsyn update for AudioLayer?
NS2 audio tracks?
Anything from @WaveMachineLabs?
A better MIDI timing solution between @SevenSystems and AUM?
It seems to me that those most inclined to use the term derisively are the ones calling for the shut down of the discussion.
TLWR : signing off folks! Its been a blast. Loved the thread. The ups, the downs, most of all the BANE, but alas all roads must end one day... err, I guess unless they loop back on themselves... like the ororoborialus snake. Anyway, its been a slice, pm me if you want to go for drinks or shoot gophers in my uncles field etc.
I think politics and the intricacies of how societies work are way over my head, and not really my business here anyway. So I've deleted all posts as best as I could and will go back to stuff that I actually understand 😂
My song “Pussy” got me banned, too.
Dude, I just really dig my pet cat.
What’s the problem?
My last post in this thread:
Thanks again for the timestretching!
OK I’m outta here, won’t be back. Its been a slice. Arivadeercheese!
Snowflake ❄️ Don't tell me how to use the word, don't stop me from using it just because a trend has bastardize its meaning. The OP is about a song called snowflake, it should not be censored. People stop being insane.
Give people dignity and let each of them can stand apart, so that each can find their own fellowship and love it. Power stands against power, contempt against contempt and love against love. Give humanity dignity and trust that life will find a better way.
No problem! Piece of cake compared to politics 😉
I don’t think anyone has fallen out or called each other names, just a robust debate. It’s still civil.
I’d hate to think it was acceptable for people to be called ‘snowflakes’ or worse on here, so maybe it’s good for the community to know that some might not take it as ‘a bit of fun’.
Well, I am genuinely glad to have learned that I could be considered racist by using two words I never had the slightest clue had that connotation. But also have the sense that redefining words like this is lunacy. Context is everything, but I guess not so much these days. Anyhooo ... two more words added to the "avoid" list without any awkwardness, so that's a good thing. I think?
You were called a troll recently too. Tread carefully!
If I can help dial back the volume I definitely helped create:
Here's an example of me feeling aggrieved by language police. I was reading a Twitter thread by a young woman who was "confessing" to using a slur an early novel. She was unaware of it at the time, and only realized her transgression after publication. Today, she wrote, she would never have used the word "G---y." I was like...huh? What could that possibly be? After a little searching I realized she was talking about the word "Gypsy." I thought, OH COME ON.
But you know what? Fair enough. It's not up to me whether Romani are offended by the word. I think it's fine that the word existed in the past, and I'm not embarrassed that my dog was named that (after the Who song from "Tommy," "Acid Queen"). But honestly, my life is not impoverished by not using that word. And it's a reductive way to describe the genius of Django Reinhardt anyway.
I love your work, it's like watching popcorn kernels explode (the old fashioned kind in the round pie plate with the clear lid), or rodent droppings being cleaned from a cage...Detractors beware!!!
@my brother MonzoPro... the reason that being teased for being poor at soccer doesn't garner the same label is because the label of 'hate speech' is for speech rooted in hatred. You can be bullied without being hated and you can be hated without being bullied. It doesn't mean that you didn't suffer or weren't affected because of the teasing, children are teased for many things from being poor at sports to just being actually poor but everything is not rooted in 'Hatred'... Hatred however is absolutely rooted in Hatred and the customs, traditions, and actions that stem from that are also rooted in Hatred hence the term hate speech.... that's the difference between being teased and the manifesto of a raving lunatic with a superiority complex and a gun on any given day in America.
If it rises to the level of hatred or if hatred is the context in which it is used then it will be labeled as Hate Speech.
This issue here is history, gypsy is a slang term for travelers and could be considered offensive from its initial conception whereas snowflake is an ancient word from the beginning of human language, it also has a strong religious symbolism.
That’s not my quote - he was tagging me in his reply. The soccer analogy was his.
From my vantage point he’s kind of right though. The bigotry displayed against Christians and social conservatives from my friends and family who are liberal far exceeds any kind of racism I see on display from my friends and family on the right. The left has weaponized the term fascist to describe any conservative policy they don’t agree with and as a result feel free to disparage and discriminate against those “fascists” on the right. It’s alarming and I think we’re only at the tip of the iceberg. I can’t imagine what it’s going to be like after another generation of young people coming out of our left-wing universities.
Uh oh. OK, here we go...
Whataboutism.
Just because some people mis-label some conservatives as fascists, doesn’t make racism, sexism, homophobia etc. any less a crime (which it is).
In my experience left-leaning folks stand up for the rights of those less fortunate than themselves.
doh! my bad... still brothers though, no take backs!
No worries - when I saw he’d tagged me with his quote I thought bugger, it looks like I said that!
I think we just see things differently. I see conservatives pushing policies that help those less fortunate (and rarely see outright bigotry). I see left-wing politicians trying to consolidate power by convincing the less fortunate that the right are fascists trying to kill everyone but the white and the rich.