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Icegear - Nambu (FM)

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Comments

  • espiegel123espiegel123

    @Gavinski said:

    @ehehehe said:

    @NeuM said:

    @ehehehe said:

    @parnarules_85 said:

    @ElectroHead said:

    @parnarules_85 said:
    One iOS FM synth I do find incredible and worth every penny is ID700.

    Thanks for the timely prompt; I need to dig into ID700 again. I got some pleasing results with it, but found the interface a bit obtuse.

    The interface could be much better as it is not easy to navigate but in terms of sound...very few synth apps can compete imo

    Yeah. This one looks nicer but sounds pretty boring in comparison.

    Also I think good presets should be a focus point for devs, the sound is the main selling points for most. All big companies almost always have gorgeous presets that shows off the synths sweet spots, but I understand that this takes resources. I will be waiting and hear, the architecture seems pretty cool but that doesn't matter if I already have these sounds in my synth arsenal.

    Just wait til you start hearing new presets from Spidericemidas… You might change your mind after someone dives deeply into this synth.

    I doubt it. If a synth maker doesn't know how to make their creations audibly shine at release i guess one of two things, either the product is a bit rushed or the marketing is bad. I would bet there are more than enough youtubers, preset-makers and other heroes that would do it for free. I only make my own presets, so not having the ability to judge a synth based on name/category fitting presets makes it much slower to realize what that current synth excels at. Moog, Waldorff and Imaginando does this fine with all their stuff.

    Exactly, it's just a matter of contacting a few youtubers or sound designers and asking, do you fancy making a few presets for my new synth? Or paying a few hundred bucks, which could easily be funded by a cheap iap, to someone who really really knows their shit. Not all devs / musicians like dealing with the marketing side of things, which I understand, but it's also a pity, as this kind of thing is pretty low effort in terms of time involved on the dev's side

    I think you overestimate the ease with which one can get sound designers to work for nothing to create stellar presets and/or the profitability of these apps. Whenever I see someone who doesn't know the actual numbers say "all that is required is...." or "this kind of thing is pretty low effort.." or "it would only take a few hundred dollars" (without knowing if that is true or if that would actually generate significantly more sales), it makes me cringe a little.

    I see people speculate here about what they see as surefire ways for developers to be more successful without having any idea how much time and effort would be required, or how much additional revenue would be generated by the effort...and those people are usually blindly speculating.

    Maybe stick to "I wish there more presets" or better presets. I know you have good intentions, but the attitude is insulting even if not meant to be.

  • NeuMNeuM
    edited August 2022

    @Gavinski said:

    @NeuM said:

    @ehehehe said:

    @NeuM said:

    @ehehehe said:

    @parnarules_85 said:

    @ElectroHead said:

    @parnarules_85 said:
    One iOS FM synth I do find incredible and worth every penny is ID700.

    Thanks for the timely prompt; I need to dig into ID700 again. I got some pleasing results with it, but found the interface a bit obtuse.

    The interface could be much better as it is not easy to navigate but in terms of sound...very few synth apps can compete imo

    Yeah. This one looks nicer but sounds pretty boring in comparison.

    Also I think good presets should be a focus point for devs, the sound is the main selling points for most. All big companies almost always have gorgeous presets that shows off the synths sweet spots, but I understand that this takes resources. I will be waiting and hear, the architecture seems pretty cool but that doesn't matter if I already have these sounds in my synth arsenal.

    Just wait til you start hearing new presets from Spidericemidas… You might change your mind after someone dives deeply into this synth.

    I doubt it. If a synth maker doesn't know how to make their creations audibly shine at release i guess one of two things, either the product is a bit rushed or the marketing is bad. I would bet there are more than enough youtubers, preset-makers and other heroes that would do it for free. I only make my own presets, so not having the ability to judge a synth based on name/category fitting presets makes it much slower to realize what that current synth excels at. Moog, Waldorff and Imaginando does this fine with all their stuff.

    I agree there aren’t enough presets already for this synth, but even a casual glance at this synth reveals the depth and breadth of setting combinations possible. A lack of presets in this case is no indicator of the capability (or lack thereof) of the synth.

    And comparing a one-man development shop to Moog and Waldorf is a bit ridiculous.

    Can think of plenty of smaller shops who do this aspect well. Bleass, Caelum Audio etc. My comment is well intentioned, I would like to see this synth sell a bundle of units. One very easy way to do so would be to ask youtubers, pxlhg, spider, SOI etc if they fancy throwing a few cool ones in the pot for free. Ultimately it's the dev's decision - we all have different skills and inclinations, but there's no question that such decisions impact sales.

    I'd like nothing more than the developer working out some kind of in-app named credit or revenue share with a select group of patch designers who would like to develop patch bundles for in-app purchase, same as BLEASS has done.

  • Montreal_MusicMontreal_Music

    If Brice wants to create presets, I will buy it.

  • GavinskiGavinski

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Gavinski said:

    @ehehehe said:

    @NeuM said:

    @ehehehe said:

    @parnarules_85 said:

    @ElectroHead said:

    @parnarules_85 said:
    One iOS FM synth I do find incredible and worth every penny is ID700.

    Thanks for the timely prompt; I need to dig into ID700 again. I got some pleasing results with it, but found the interface a bit obtuse.

    The interface could be much better as it is not easy to navigate but in terms of sound...very few synth apps can compete imo

    Yeah. This one looks nicer but sounds pretty boring in comparison.

    Also I think good presets should be a focus point for devs, the sound is the main selling points for most. All big companies almost always have gorgeous presets that shows off the synths sweet spots, but I understand that this takes resources. I will be waiting and hear, the architecture seems pretty cool but that doesn't matter if I already have these sounds in my synth arsenal.

    Just wait til you start hearing new presets from Spidericemidas… You might change your mind after someone dives deeply into this synth.

    I doubt it. If a synth maker doesn't know how to make their creations audibly shine at release i guess one of two things, either the product is a bit rushed or the marketing is bad. I would bet there are more than enough youtubers, preset-makers and other heroes that would do it for free. I only make my own presets, so not having the ability to judge a synth based on name/category fitting presets makes it much slower to realize what that current synth excels at. Moog, Waldorff and Imaginando does this fine with all their stuff.

    Exactly, it's just a matter of contacting a few youtubers or sound designers and asking, do you fancy making a few presets for my new synth? Or paying a few hundred bucks, which could easily be funded by a cheap iap, to someone who really really knows their shit. Not all devs / musicians like dealing with the marketing side of things, which I understand, but it's also a pity, as this kind of thing is pretty low effort in terms of time involved on the dev's side

    I think you overestimate the ease with which one can get sound designers to work for nothing to create stellar presets and/or the profitability of these apps. Whenever I see someone who doesn't know the actual numbers say "all that is required is...." or "this kind of thing is pretty low effort.." or "it would only take a few hundred dollars" (without knowing if that is true or if that would actually generate significantly more sales), it makes me cringe a little.

    I see people speculate here about what they see as surefire ways for developers to be more successful without having any idea how much time and effort would be required, or how much additional revenue would be generated by the effort...and those people are usually blindly speculating.

    Maybe stick to "I wish there more presets" or better presets. I know you have good intentions, but the attitude is insulting even if not meant to be.

    I was exactly predicting that I would get such a comment from you. I do happen to know a fair bit about the topic so cringe away, I really don't care

  • GavinskiGavinski
    edited August 2022

    @Gavinski said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Gavinski said:

    @ehehehe said:

    @NeuM said:

    @ehehehe said:

    @parnarules_85 said:

    @ElectroHead said:

    @parnarules_85 said:
    One iOS FM synth I do find incredible and worth every penny is ID700.

    Thanks for the timely prompt; I need to dig into ID700 again. I got some pleasing results with it, but found the interface a bit obtuse.

    The interface could be much better as it is not easy to navigate but in terms of sound...very few synth apps can compete imo

    Yeah. This one looks nicer but sounds pretty boring in comparison.

    Also I think good presets should be a focus point for devs, the sound is the main selling points for most. All big companies almost always have gorgeous presets that shows off the synths sweet spots, but I understand that this takes resources. I will be waiting and hear, the architecture seems pretty cool but that doesn't matter if I already have these sounds in my synth arsenal.

    Just wait til you start hearing new presets from Spidericemidas… You might change your mind after someone dives deeply into this synth.

    I doubt it. If a synth maker doesn't know how to make their creations audibly shine at release i guess one of two things, either the product is a bit rushed or the marketing is bad. I would bet there are more than enough youtubers, preset-makers and other heroes that would do it for free. I only make my own presets, so not having the ability to judge a synth based on name/category fitting presets makes it much slower to realize what that current synth excels at. Moog, Waldorff and Imaginando does this fine with all their stuff.

    Exactly, it's just a matter of contacting a few youtubers or sound designers and asking, do you fancy making a few presets for my new synth? Or paying a few hundred bucks, which could easily be funded by a cheap iap, to someone who really really knows their shit. Not all devs / musicians like dealing with the marketing side of things, which I understand, but it's also a pity, as this kind of thing is pretty low effort in terms of time involved on the dev's side

    I think you overestimate the ease with which one can get sound designers to work for nothing to create stellar presets and/or the profitability of these apps. Whenever I see someone who doesn't know the actual numbers say "all that is required is...." or "this kind of thing is pretty low effort.." or "it would only take a few hundred dollars" (without knowing if that is true or if that would actually generate significantly more sales), it makes me cringe a little.

    I see people speculate here about what they see as surefire ways for developers to be more successful without having any idea how much time and effort would be required, or how much additional revenue would be generated by the effort...and those people are usually blindly speculating.

    Maybe stick to "I wish there more presets" or better presets. I know you have good intentions, but the attitude is insulting even if not meant to be.

    I was exactly predicting that I would get such a comment from you. I do happen to know a fair bit about the topic so cringe away, I really don't care

    Just a bit tired of the constant lecturing judgy tone. I'll add that I don't wish to debate this further, we can agree to disagree on it.

  • Montreal_MusicMontreal_Music

    It would be awesome to see a video of Jakob Haq interviewing Satoshi to learn more about him.

  • GavinskiGavinski

    @Montreal_Music said:
    It would be awesome to see a video of Jakob Haq interviewing Satoshi to learn more about him.

    It would be, but based on my personal interactions with Satoshi I think that's highly unlikely. We can live in hope though.

  • NeuMNeuM

    @Gavinski said:

    @Montreal_Music said:
    It would be awesome to see a video of Jakob Haq interviewing Satoshi to learn more about him.

    It would be, but based on my personal interactions with Satoshi I think that's highly unlikely. We can live in hope though.

    My impression is he does not seek out attention. He wrote me a nice response though.

  • espiegel123espiegel123

    @Gavinski said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Gavinski said:

    @ehehehe said:

    @NeuM said:

    @ehehehe said:

    @parnarules_85 said:

    @ElectroHead said:

    @parnarules_85 said:
    One iOS FM synth I do find incredible and worth every penny is ID700.

    Thanks for the timely prompt; I need to dig into ID700 again. I got some pleasing results with it, but found the interface a bit obtuse.

    The interface could be much better as it is not easy to navigate but in terms of sound...very few synth apps can compete imo

    Yeah. This one looks nicer but sounds pretty boring in comparison.

    Also I think good presets should be a focus point for devs, the sound is the main selling points for most. All big companies almost always have gorgeous presets that shows off the synths sweet spots, but I understand that this takes resources. I will be waiting and hear, the architecture seems pretty cool but that doesn't matter if I already have these sounds in my synth arsenal.

    Just wait til you start hearing new presets from Spidericemidas… You might change your mind after someone dives deeply into this synth.

    I doubt it. If a synth maker doesn't know how to make their creations audibly shine at release i guess one of two things, either the product is a bit rushed or the marketing is bad. I would bet there are more than enough youtubers, preset-makers and other heroes that would do it for free. I only make my own presets, so not having the ability to judge a synth based on name/category fitting presets makes it much slower to realize what that current synth excels at. Moog, Waldorff and Imaginando does this fine with all their stuff.

    Exactly, it's just a matter of contacting a few youtubers or sound designers and asking, do you fancy making a few presets for my new synth? Or paying a few hundred bucks, which could easily be funded by a cheap iap, to someone who really really knows their shit. Not all devs / musicians like dealing with the marketing side of things, which I understand, but it's also a pity, as this kind of thing is pretty low effort in terms of time involved on the dev's side

    I think you overestimate the ease with which one can get sound designers to work for nothing to create stellar presets and/or the profitability of these apps. Whenever I see someone who doesn't know the actual numbers say "all that is required is...." or "this kind of thing is pretty low effort.." or "it would only take a few hundred dollars" (without knowing if that is true or if that would actually generate significantly more sales), it makes me cringe a little.

    I see people speculate here about what they see as surefire ways for developers to be more successful without having any idea how much time and effort would be required, or how much additional revenue would be generated by the effort...and those people are usually blindly speculating.

    Maybe stick to "I wish there more presets" or better presets. I know you have good intentions, but the attitude is insulting even if not meant to be.

    I was exactly predicting that I would get such a comment from you. I do happen to know a fair bit about the topic so cringe away, I really don't care

    I am sorry that you found my reply "judgy". I was trying to point out that you came across judgy and implicitly dismissive of the developer and his judgment.

    You are certainly entitled to express your opinion, and I think it is beneficial for people to know that it may not be as cit and dried as you think.

    In my opinion, you claim that trivial effort would have a significant payoff. That seems like an unfair dismissive judgment to make. I think a lot of people here underestimate the work it takes to make these synths (and time to make great presets) and overestimate how much money they generate or how much additional revenue their requests would generate.

  • david_2017david_2017

    Is @Spidericemidas preset package coming in a pointrelease, or did he/you create the factory content?

  • GavinskiGavinski

    @david_2017 said:
    Is @Spidericemidas preset package coming in a pointrelease, or did he/you create the factory content?

    He certainly didn't create any factory presets. I guess he'll put out his own pack as usual when he's amassed enough presets. Looking forward to it!

  • david_2017david_2017

    Ah ok I get it. I thought that the Icegear dude and he worked together for this. I am super stoked to hear his patches. Most of the time I am like: ahh look, this is what icegear stuff can sound 👊🏼🙃

    @Gavinski said:

    @david_2017 said:
    Is @Spidericemidas preset package coming in a pointrelease, or did he/you create the factory content?

    He certainly didn't create any factory presets. I guess he'll put out his own pack as usual when he's amassed enough presets. Looking forward to it!

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • GavinskiGavinski

    @ehehehe said:

    @NeuM said:

    even a casual glance at this synth reveals the depth and breadth of setting combinations possible. A lack of presets in this case is no indicator of the capability (or lack thereof) of the synth.

    Wait, so you have synesthesia and can accurately envision the sound of a software synth by glancing at its options?

    Anyways, for me presets are a time saver. I don't need 4000, but at least ten in each of the niches that synth shines in makes learning the thing and then making patches from init way much faster.

    Well, you don't need synesthesia to either look at a manual or even tinker with an app for 10 minutes to imagine the capabilities. It remains true that more presets would be appreciated by most, for sure

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • PoppadocrockPoppadocrock

    Update added some template presets.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • GavinskiGavinski

    @Poppadocrock said:
    Update added some template presets.

    Ah there's an update, great. Arp presets omission in the initial release was certainly a strange one (imo) especially as the arp is one of the most beloved aspects of icegear synths

  • SpidericemidasSpidericemidas

    I haven't looked at the manual for Nambu. Tbh I didn't need to. Nothing is really hidden. Everything is on one screen. It's all laid out very clearly and logically. Easy to see what's going on straight away.

    And yes, just a few minutes looking over the one screen you can clearly and quickly see the huge amount of modulation and architecture routings on offer.
    Just a glance at the menu of sound sources and the matrix for routing them, is surely enough to make you realise the brain melting possibilities for sound design.
    You quickly realise this is actually a very modular type of synth app. In other words you have a lot of freedom to build, route and connect things in so many different ways.

    It's really a pretty open book, blank canvas, for you to create almost anything you can imagine.
    I certainly didn't need to hear any factory presets to know what an incredible creative sound design tool I had in my hands. In fact, I knew straight away just from looking over it, there's no way just a bunch of factory presets from the developer could ever possibly convey the capability and potential of this one. The scope is just too huge. The time needed would surely not be profitable. Offering it out early to various known sound designers would probably have yielded more in the way of showcasing, but at what cost to the developer? And it would have needed to be early enough to give enough designers a chance and time to dig in and pull out some gems to do it any kind of justice.

    Does a paint and paintbrush manufacturer supply you with completed artwork done with their tools as examples of what can be done with them?

    Yeah, all the routing and modulation options in the world mean nothing if the sound sources are absolute shite. But the dev already has a good catalogue and reputation. A small range of factory presets are provided just to give you enough idea that the sound is decent enough. But because of its modular nature, it's a tall order to expect a dev alone to cover all possibilities and really push the capabilities on offer.

    I can understand if people are not usually programmers themselves, relying on a unit to ship with plenty of wide ranging presets, that they may be disappointed at first. But the way Nambu has been laid out with a really sweet clear UI, it actually makes it fun and rewarding to go in and just experiment, test the functions and explore. This is a synth that can be as simple or complex as you want. It's modular. And although it is very deep at its deepest, most importantly the UI is never a frustrating obstacle and makes learning and exploration with it very easy and inviting.

  • Paulo164Paulo164

    I finally bought Nambu.
    Whoa…. I am really impressed. So qualitative synth in all regards !
    I just fed a resonator with a texture exciter, nothing complicated, and I get the feeling to play the most realistic and expressive guitar, ukulele, koto or whatever under my fingers. It is so fun to play with and so intuitive to me. Big congratulations to the dev !
    It is my first Icegear synth and it opens a new sonic realm to me.
    Sorry, I just wanted to express my joy and gratitude here… 🥹

  • GavinskiGavinski

    @Paulo164 said:
    I finally bought Nambu.
    Whoa…. I am really impressed. So qualitative synth in all regards !
    I just fed a resonator with a texture exciter, nothing complicated, and I get the feeling to play the most realistic and expressive guitar, ukulele, koto or whatever under my fingers. It is so fun to play with and so intuitive to me. Big congratulations to the dev !
    It is my first Icegear synth and it opens a new sonic realm to me.
    Sorry, I just wanted to express my joy and gratitude here… 🥹

    I’m glad to see a new comment. As someone mentioned in another thread the other day, a new app gets released, there’s a flurry of excitement and then - nada. Great synth with so many possibilities, even just using 2 voices as you said Paulo

  • craftycuratecraftycurate
    edited August 2022

    I took the plunge too and glad I did. Took about a minute to set up a 6 FM operator patch and got a decent warm brass pad by tweaking matrix levels. I think we’re going to get along fine.

    I’ve some across a few wishlist tweaks e,g, tempo sync option for LFO in operators, but sensing I need to focus on what it DOES do first and see where that leads.

  • Montreal_MusicMontreal_Music

    How it sounds compared to KQ Dixie?

  • PoppadocrockPoppadocrock

    @Montreal_Music said:
    How it sounds compared to KQ Dixie?

    I think nambu is better, it’s doesn’t have as many patches but the interface is way better then KQ. I think over time we will see some free and some paid Nambu packs that make it the better choice. KQ has tons of patches available online, but I never knew how to adjust any parameters on it.

  • espiegel123espiegel123

    @Poppadocrock said:

    @Montreal_Music said:
    How it sounds compared to KQ Dixie?

    I think nambu is better, it’s doesn’t have as many patches but the interface is way better then KQ. I think over time we will see some free and some paid Nambu packs that make it the better choice. KQ has tons of patches available online, but I never knew how to adjust any parameters on it.

    They are very different. Nambu has a broader range of sounds, but if there are DX7 sounds one loves, one may have trouble matching them. That isn’t a strike against Nambu. It isn’t intended as a DX7 clone.

  • wimwim
    edited August 2022

    It’s a bit like asking “Which sounds better, a clarinet or an oboe?”

  • espiegel123espiegel123

    @wim said:
    It’s a bit like asking “Which sounds better, a clarinet or an oboe?”

    English horn

  • auxmuxauxmux

    @ehehehe said:

    @NeuM said:

    @ehehehe said:

    @parnarules_85 said:

    @ElectroHead said:

    @parnarules_85 said:
    One iOS FM synth I do find incredible and worth every penny is ID700.

    Thanks for the timely prompt; I need to dig into ID700 again. I got some pleasing results with it, but found the interface a bit obtuse.

    The interface could be much better as it is not easy to navigate but in terms of sound...very few synth apps can compete imo

    Yeah. This one looks nicer but sounds pretty boring in comparison.

    Also I think good presets should be a focus point for devs, the sound is the main selling points for most. All big companies almost always have gorgeous presets that shows off the synths sweet spots, but I understand that this takes resources. I will be waiting and hear, the architecture seems pretty cool but that doesn't matter if I already have these sounds in my synth arsenal.

    Just wait til you start hearing new presets from Spidericemidas… You might change your mind after someone dives deeply into this synth.

    I doubt it. If a synth maker doesn't know how to make their creations audibly shine at release i guess one of two things, either the product is a bit rushed or the marketing is bad. I would bet there are more than enough youtubers, preset-makers and other heroes that would do it for free. I only make my own presets, so not having the ability to judge a synth based on name/category fitting presets makes it much slower to realize what that current synth excels at. Moog, Waldorff and Imaginando does this fine with all their stuff.

    Be > @espiegel123 said:

    @wim said:
    It’s a bit like asking “Which sounds better, a clarinet or an oboe?”

    English horn

    Flugelhorn.

    KQ is now a classic. Nambu is awesome. You need both

  • knewspeakknewspeak

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Gavinski said:

    @ehehehe said:

    @NeuM said:

    @ehehehe said:

    @parnarules_85 said:

    @ElectroHead said:

    @parnarules_85 said:
    One iOS FM synth I do find incredible and worth every penny is ID700.

    Thanks for the timely prompt; I need to dig into ID700 again. I got some pleasing results with it, but found the interface a bit obtuse.

    The interface could be much better as it is not easy to navigate but in terms of sound...very few synth apps can compete imo

    Yeah. This one looks nicer but sounds pretty boring in comparison.

    Also I think good presets should be a focus point for devs, the sound is the main selling points for most. All big companies almost always have gorgeous presets that shows off the synths sweet spots, but I understand that this takes resources. I will be waiting and hear, the architecture seems pretty cool but that doesn't matter if I already have these sounds in my synth arsenal.

    Just wait til you start hearing new presets from Spidericemidas… You might change your mind after someone dives deeply into this synth.

    I doubt it. If a synth maker doesn't know how to make their creations audibly shine at release i guess one of two things, either the product is a bit rushed or the marketing is bad. I would bet there are more than enough youtubers, preset-makers and other heroes that would do it for free. I only make my own presets, so not having the ability to judge a synth based on name/category fitting presets makes it much slower to realize what that current synth excels at. Moog, Waldorff and Imaginando does this fine with all their stuff.

    Exactly, it's just a matter of contacting a few youtubers or sound designers and asking, do you fancy making a few presets for my new synth? Or paying a few hundred bucks, which could easily be funded by a cheap iap, to someone who really really knows their shit. Not all devs / musicians like dealing with the marketing side of things, which I understand, but it's also a pity, as this kind of thing is pretty low effort in terms of time involved on the dev's side

    I think you overestimate the ease with which one can get sound designers to work for nothing to create stellar presets and/or the profitability of these apps. Whenever I see someone who doesn't know the actual numbers say "all that is required is...." or "this kind of thing is pretty low effort.." or "it would only take a few hundred dollars" (without knowing if that is true or if that would actually generate significantly more sales), it makes me cringe a little.

    I see people speculate here about what they see as surefire ways for developers to be more successful without having any idea how much time and effort would be required, or how much additional revenue would be generated by the effort...and those people are usually blindly speculating.

    Maybe stick to "I wish there more presets" or better presets. I know you have good intentions, but the attitude is insulting even if not meant to be.

    I haven’t got the vaguest idea as to the return for effort ratio, I think other form’s of software development could possibly yield greater ‘monetary’ reward, rather than the niche development of music related software, but I’m sure ‘preset’ creators could be found, pretty much as beta tester’s are found today. I do believe that having more preset’s would create more sales for the developer, because some people wish to use presets rather than program from scratch sounds.

  • wimwim
    edited August 2022

    Have y’all ever considered the possibility that a developer simply might not want to focus on herding up people to do presets, curating them, etc? It’s easy to assume everyone acts like a business out to maximize profits, but maybe some are just people that enjoy making really cool shit mainly for the satisfaction of that alone. And just maybe the kind of people they feel the most kinship with and enjoy creating for are the nerds that have fun learning and using the stuff they make more than they do preset surfers.

    Just a thought. 😎 ✌️

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