Loopy Pro: Create music, your way.
What is Loopy Pro? — Loopy Pro is a powerful, flexible, and intuitive live looper, sampler, clip launcher and DAW for iPhone and iPad. At its core, it allows you to record and layer sounds in real-time to create complex musical arrangements. But it doesn’t stop there—Loopy Pro offers advanced tools to customize your workflow, build dynamic performance setups, and create a seamless connection between instruments, effects, and external gear.
Use it for live looping, sequencing, arranging, mixing, and much more. Whether you're a live performer, a producer, or just experimenting with sound, Loopy Pro helps you take control of your creative process.
Download on the App StoreLoopy Pro is your all-in-one musical toolkit. Try it for free today.
Is Subscription Fair to Developers and Users alike?
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I agree on the “it depends” take. Like Doug said, I could see it being viable for a DAW or DAW-like app (Launchpad) but I couldn’t see myself taking out a subscription for a synth or effect. The only subscription I have is Taqsim because it sounds great, there’s tons of packs, they always add more, and it follows through all 5-6 apps they have.
When Adobe went subscription I couldn't afford what they were asking and struggled for a few years using Lightroom 6 which was buggy and never going to be fixed. Now there are several great choices and many people are currently using ON1 or DXO who probably would have bought or upgraded LR. The experience means I'll never use Adobe products again. I understand they don't care about that, but I'm not the only one, anti Adobe sentiments come up regularly on photography forums.
One reason I hate subscriptions is the company assumes I'll want a bunch of their software. I only used Lightroom, not Photoshop but I would be forced to subscribe to both. I used Premiere for video, that was a separate subscription. For folks who use a lot of hardware and only a few plugins, subscribing to Waves or Slate is a big money loss. So I end up not using any of their plugins at all. Which is good for smaller or up and coming developers like Topaz Labs or Sixth Sample, because I buy those instead.
WUP (Waves Update Plan) is the 'Waves Way' to pay for a period of updates.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AudioPlugins/comments/m9g0b3/waves_update_plan_wup_information/
In practice it's 'free updates' during a specified period (1 year after purchase) for the purchased plug-ins.
Once the period ends you'll still have access to your plug-ins and they can still be used but not updated.
Pay for another WUP period and you can update all the plug-ins you've purchased...
I might go for a Kush sub anytime soon, just to check these highly praised plugins but it's only $9.99 a month, so no big risk there, and then I'll know which ones I'd like to own or not.
But generally no thanks.
Netflix, Prime, Spotify and the like are something else though and I use these sometimes or regularly.
.. ah, and Output's Arcade which I've just opened, a trove of inspiration and totally worth it (10 € / month) and you can also just stop the sub without losing something.
@Samu Thanks, that’s makes thing a lot clearer 👍
Since we’re basically talking about alternative business models in the music production space, I’d like to draw your attention to ImageLine/Fruity Loops.
They are one of the oldest, most installed “daws” in the world. A massive amount of that installed base is, or was initiated, based on pirated copies. Yet they still offer the perpetual free upgrade, constantly improve their software, have a massively loyal customer base, and if you notice, don’t spend basically any money on advertising. When’s the last time you saw advertising for FL like you see for Waves, UVI, etc?
Maybe 🤔 more companies need to look at a model like IL’s that doesn’t treat your customers (even the pirates 🏴☠️) as adversarial?
Subscription based software is horrible unless there are strong consumer protection laws in place that are actually enforced. And that will never happen because the companies have more money to bribe (a heh “lobby”) than we do.
It’s bad enough when a perfectly good piece of hardware like a phone or tablet is basically turned to landfill fodder because the manufacturer decides they are not going to support it any more after 3-5 years. So every time I see crap like Roland Cloud, Waves, etc. I think back to the lines of bodies in the ground of all the other software, devices, I can’t get to work because the company “moved on” and won’t support them. And that was BEFORE they formalized the planned obsolescence by calling it “subscription”.
The only model where subscriptions make sense is for pros. Sell the product as-is, with zero company support, and offer pro/enterprise customers service/support contracts as subscriptions, but then ACTUALLY PROVIDE SUPPORT!
/rant
Thanks for the clarification. Since I have no Waves plugins, this was a bit of a mystery.
Really only in some cases is it conditional on whether it depends. That's what I was raised to believe.
But conditions may change in the future, which may or may not affect past conditions.
I'm not sure whether subscriptions are "fair" or not is the right question. In a free market everyone has the right to choose whether or not to purchase something. I would consider music production software a free market for the most part.
Not being fair would mean that some parties are treated differently than others, such as "Customers who do not eat broccoli are entitled to a perpetual license. Broccoli eaters must purchase a subscription." Or, perhaps not being fair would be a government entity forcing a company to give their software away for free to broccoli eaters.
There are many valid cases where not being fair is quite acceptable - such as free usage or lower prices for charitable organizations and education uses, or higher prices for commercial use over a certain revenue threshold.
Then there is the question of fairness for the consumer vs. the supplier. Is it fair for a company to resort to higher pricing or subscription as a way of keeping their business afloat? Is it fair for a company to make huge profits? Is it fair for consumers to have to pay that to own the software? I say yes because neither party is forced to do this. It's different if the services are essential, such as electricity and gas. But even for essential services there needs to be some modicum of fairness for both the supplier and the consumer.
So, I'm not sure "fairness" really comes into this. The question to me is whether it's attractive or not.
In my case, subscription for music software is generally "no way". My reason isn't what I mind paying for software. I'm willing to pay substantially for music apps. I'm not willing to have my finances bleeding from a thousand cuts that I have to keep track of every month. More than that I'm not willing to have to make the decision over and over and over again whether I want to keep paying for something. I want to do it once, then not look back.
There may be some piece of music software that I would be willing to subscribe to. Loopy Pro and Drambo come closest. I'm perfectly happy with Loopy Pro's model, and I hope Drambo remains sustainable or that the developer finds ways to keep it so.
I feel like a subscription is fair when you are receiving new content regularly. That might be why Netflix and other streaming services are acceptable to me as subscription services. In the music world, there are also some things that fall into that category like Spotify or the many other music players, for example. Music creation apps are a little bit different in my mind as I don't want to pay perpetually just to own the tool (even if we technically don't). However, in my opinion, the Ampify apps come to mind as reasonable implementations of subscription-worthy software because the content is extensive, frequent and of high quality. The Roland Cloud with Zenbeats Max thing might also be a decent example as I understand it unlocks new sound packs regularly, tho I'm not using that currently. I might even consider paying for a subscription service to get new quality presets within certain synths if such a thing existed (are you reading this @Spidericemidas ?
), but again I wouldn't want to pay perpetual fees just to get to use the software/tool itself. I would pay for upgrades separately if I used it regularly and/or felt it was worthy, of course.
I’m with you 100%.
I don't think of it as fair or unfair.
I purchased Wotja, then for a few years I purchased the annual upgrades. After the 2022 update, I realized I wasn't using it much, so I decided not to pony up for the 2023 update. Thjat's not a subscription model, and it gave me a chance to work with it without breaking the bank.
The only things I'll subscribe to are things like cloud storage. I still feel that subscriptions generally (you may have other opinions) are bad for innovation. All I have to do is look at the cost of an Adobe Creative Cloud subscription (even for basics) and because I'm not getting paid to do graphics work, I'm forced to look elsewhere. I've seen the profit picture for Adobe in the business news, and the business now exists not for the consumer, but for the shareholder. I can get 95% of what I need out of Affinity's products, and I find their pricing model more like Wotja, so I feel I can use it without sitting on a much larger investment. I've seen a lot of the iPad synths/plugins/etc starting to go this way, and I prefer it.
I won't bash subscription models. If you want/need them, you should have the privilege of paying for what you get. A professional recording engineer/producer/musician will get more out of a monthly subscription (e.g. for Waves, before they reverted) than I would, where I might not have the time to use it more than a half hour a week. Which brings up an even bigger issue. It's totally possible to "meter" software use. Why can't I pay for a half hour a week instead of a month at a time?
WUP is unlike anything else in the industry. It is essentially insurance for OS or DAW compatibility. It contains the word “update” in the name but Waves rarely, if ever, actually updates anything, other than maintenance updates for OS compatibility, and even those are rare. Unlike other companies, which update their products as needed throughout the year with bug fixes and enhancements, and release something like v 1.04, v 1.05, etc., Waves never actually updates anything. Instead, once a year they simply change the NAME of ALL their plugins to version 9, 10, 11, etc. and expect you to pay for the new "version" just in case something might not be compatible with recent OS changes, but offer no new products or features, enhancements, presets, or interface changes. I have like 25 Waves plugins, in all the years I’ve had them, none of them has never gotten any feature or interface updates. A couple of the really old ones may have gotten a new graphics skin.
Other companies, like for example Arturia or Native Instruments, when you update from V Collection 8 to 9, you get a bunch of new synths, so you’re getting something significant for your upgrade fee. And if you choose not to update, they will still push out maintenance updates for years free of charge.
Companies should not be charging for ONLY operating system or DAW update compatibility, because they have to do that anyway even to be able to run their own products on recent computers. WUP exploits fear of losing access to your plugins and wants you to pay a fee at a time when you can least afford it, right after you just splurged on a big new computer or DAW upgrade. It is a terrible way to try to get customers to upgrade. Instead they should support what you’ve already paid for and offer new products or major enhancements in order to entice you to upgrade.
In short, even though Waves has backed off their misguided plan to force a subscription model, they need to go a step further and phase out the massively unpopular WUP program and follow the an update policy closer to the rest of the industry.
☝️this and also that they word things in a way that makes you believe you have to update in order for things to still work when this is not always the case
Naughty company. Naughty, naughty.
I don’t want to seem like I’m pro-Waves, but Waves also seems to share a lot of free content with “How-to” instructional videos. I do realize that their instructional videos are also pitching their plugins, but I do find their videos very useful.
@thesoundtestroom : I was just treated to a listen of the vocoder in Reason+.. The program reminds me of iOS on steroids . All those “players” are like apps and you don’t need “Aum”. I can SO see you on that!
I remember when IL had an affiliate program years ago. A few of the mates and acquaintances I still keep in contact with were once using cracked versions of FL Studio main. Through providing my discount code I converted them and earned a bit of in-store credit along the way. 😉 Just thought I'd share that tidbit.
Nice! FLS is the people’s champ for sure 🙌🏽
Very much so, and a prime example of how best to operate software business.
I'm not a fan of it. But it is as close to a subscription as I will accept. What you said is fair though. Outright purchase on iPad apps does not seem to have great long term viability as a business venture.
Waves Update Plan
When it comes to music and videos streaming, And video games subscription is a fair solution .
But it’s very problematic when it come to essential or creative solutions, if for some reason you can’t pay anymore, you lose everything in worst case you don’t even have access anymore to your own creations.
Loopy pro is a good model but also Zenbeats where you pay for each new version and can subscribe to ocres the sample librairies.
I believe that in app payment is the best solution for both parts, each new tool can be sold as an IAP. Except for audio libraries. I dunno why so little developer use this possibility to add new functionality.
IOS is not a serious platform, sadly, since your investment in any app can disappear overnight or your connected hardware cease to function if the dev ceases to pay the iRansom, and Apple actively prevent you being able to make a local backup of the apps you paid for.
Benn Jordan made a vid on this very point:
Remember, they did this deliberately, We ‘own’ nothing already. They downgraded your user experience without recompense by actively choosing to remove the backup facility, which once upon a time you had. That’s Strike One.
Strike Two is the amateur/pro divide. I’ll never make a bean from my many (many) app purchases, and the idea of paying an ongoing fee to access the hundreds I have, and maybe use once a year, if that, is unaffordable, absurd.
Strike Three is that the great pioneering days of crazy, obsessive and weird apps, of the type that drew me in, seems largely to be over, most gone or dying the slow death of IAA only. If the iPad becomes just another me-too outlet with little to distinguish, in price or functionality, its collection of me-too ‘pro audio’ tools, synths and fx from desktop, or, more pertinently, from the best-of-both-worlds Bitwig on Surface Pro ecosystem, well, gotta say, Bitwig on Surface Pro is looking a whole lot more open and attractive to me these days as an experimental amateur dabbler than continuing to live with the Apple ‘Fuck You’ upgrade cycle. Especially since Bitwig seems to use the Michael-style ‘pay for the upgrade if you want/keep the current version if you don’t’ compromise model I can live with. And I say that as an Ableton Live Suite owner.
So, subs for apps on IOS? Not on a cold day on the deepest circle of Hell as far as this little devil is concerned.
Sticking with IOS at all going forward? The Magic 8 Ball says: ‘Outlook Not So Good.’
Exactly my opinion on this topic. I couldn't have said it better.
You can't ask "Is Subscription Fair?" without saying what it is you are subscribing to.
It is an incomplete question. So the answer would have to be "depends".
I've since long stopped seeing apps as 'investments'.
...happy as long as they work but I don't expect life-long support for a cup of coffee.
I'm by definition not against subscription but in order to validate the subscription it really has offer something that 'rewards' the subscriber in form of new functions or other content which is 'to keep' and not locked to a prolonged subscription.
Bug-fixes should be included for free as selling buggy software to new customers is no good and the developer has to make sure the product they sell actually works as intended anyway. If not, remove it from sale...
So in a sense I'm ok with paying for an 'update service' as long as I can keep what I have working 'as is' and be sure that once I get purchase an update it will actually work as expected.
A clear roadmap over what a subscriber can expect from the subscription is a must.
We'll see what news Apple drops during WWDC'23 but I'm quite sure there's at least something regarding app distribution and various payment models and definitely something about 3rd party app-stores.
My views are a little all over the place..
I wouldn’t pay £20 a month for over 200 plugins that are dozens of EQs, Compressors, Channel Strips etc like waves. I think Its nonsense. But.. I’m regularly tempted by some ios apps, for £8 that I know one day may not work.
But Roland.. yup. I pay it for an “in the box” Jupiter, 303, 909, Juno and 101. The System 8 and Zencore.. they sound great too. and a JD800 and JV1080. Top stuff, thats exactly what I need. A fiver a week.
But I make no money from music, its a hobby.
I make money from doing graphics. I pay £60 a month to Adobe.
I think £20 a month for a pile of cool software is a bargain, good value and actually affordable to more people but it sucks that you never get to own it.
So subscription aside, just my personal experience makes me tangent of slightly..
at the old age of 47.. I’m used to software becoming obsolete. Hardware synths die.. custom chips burnout just like a light bulb and its gone if you cant drop on a part at a price you can afford.
Ive paid a whack out for games, soft synths, daws etc.. that are lost to time. Thats life ☹️
So you kinda need to account for stuff like this happening, with hardware and software, subscription or paid for.
I see a lot of people concerned their software may stop working, particularly with subscription.
They’re right with their concerns. It will stop working. You can keep it running, maybe run cracks cos the dongle wont work, buy old machines, VMware, etc etc but its not convenient for most. At some point in time, you’re a stick in the mud and everyones moved on.
In 5 years time.. the latest processors and latest softwares is gonna be great. Probably Phenomenol.
Maybe put £20 a month aside to buy it when it comes. 😉
I wouldn’t say subscriptions are unfair but they definitely aren’t for me. I prefer to own whatever Daw I work in outright. I don’t knock companies that offer hundreds of plugins for a monthly or an annual subscription but I know I’d end using a handful of them and paying for a lot of stuff I’m not using. As far as individual apps or plugins I’m not big on subscribing to those either, what’s to stop a developer from all of a sudden jacking the subscription price way up after you’ve been using their app for a lot of projects, it’s happened to me pretty recently with an app called Alight Motion.
I was happily paying $28 annually and then they switched to $4.99 a week. On their AppStore page it still says $28 a year and all these other prices that are all over the map but when you open the App the only option is $4.99 a week. If I were using it professionally and making money off of it ok but I’m not.
I’m all for in app purchases, I’ve bought a LOT of them, but I need to own my apps and plugins I use because I don’t know what’ll happen if a developers app disappears from the AppStore, or if my situation changes and I can’t keep up with 10 or 20 subscriptions.