Loopy Pro: Create music, your way.
What is Loopy Pro? — Loopy Pro is a powerful, flexible, and intuitive live looper, sampler, clip launcher and DAW for iPhone and iPad. At its core, it allows you to record and layer sounds in real-time to create complex musical arrangements. But it doesn’t stop there—Loopy Pro offers advanced tools to customize your workflow, build dynamic performance setups, and create a seamless connection between instruments, effects, and external gear.
Use it for live looping, sequencing, arranging, mixing, and much more. Whether you're a live performer, a producer, or just experimenting with sound, Loopy Pro helps you take control of your creative process.
Download on the App StoreLoopy Pro is your all-in-one musical toolkit. Try it for free today.
Is Subscription Fair to Developers and Users alike?
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While on paper this sounds like a win/win, I personally wouldn’t like to be a developer with 5 working versions of my complex app each with their own set of problems.
One may think that once those past versions are running any bugs could be fixed in batch but if all of them have different set of features that’s bound to introduce differences that would make that challenging.
Sounds like a nightmare to me tbh
Nope. Don’t like subscriptions. One off payments is best, since having steady leeches in my pocket just sucks.
The only subscription I have is rent-to-own Serum, because no matter how much people hate on it, it’s just incredibly useful and has unlimited presets. It also has a hard end date, once it is paid off.
'Modular' apps are a nightmare to support regardless of 'business model' as one feature may rely on another and every time a feature is used a check has to be done if the feature is available for a specific version a user has or doesn't have and a suitable fallback function has to be used instead...
This might work for text based editors like working copy but for but for real-time audio apps the 'functionality check' will slow things down to a crawl especially if we're talking multiple revisions of modules that the user may or may not have updated...
I don’t get your logic, the capital outlay and overhead are irrelevant without context. What is relevant is whether the revenue received over the life of a product provides enough income that have covered the costs of development [which includes all of the direct development time, r&d, skill acquisition, etc, infrastructure costs, and do on] and provided a decent living.
It isn’t a trivial task to write a good plug-in. Writing a good plug-in doesn’t ensure a good return on the invested time.
Even the companies people think of as big names are often barely turning a profit. Companies experimenting with subscription, etc. isn’t necessarily about greed…sometimes it is because the current models are becoming less sustainable.
I guess we’ll find out over time…I’d be inclined to find out from a developer using that model if it is a nightmare. It might not be.
What Waves did was absolutely fucked up and I won’t buy anything again from them but subscriptions have been pretty useful for me. Ideally I’d rather just buy everything I need but it gets pretty expensive really fast and it’s not an option for me. And then I’ll get stuff and not use it for very long periods of time cos I just am not at that point yet like mixing tools. I can sub to UAD and get a lot awesome plug-ins and stay subbed until I don’t need them and then can just end my sub instead of shelling out thousands of dollars and then just resub when I need them again. I see it like a rental like I would if I bought time in a studio. I’m not doing anything professionally though so my needs follow where I’m at in my creative process but I could see where subs would suck if I’m mixing all day every day and using the tools all the time
But still the app needs to have 'fallback functions' for those users who have not bought the latest release...
...in those cases it's not enough to just check for latest purchase date.
Could be simple things like a dialogues having extra buttons for a specific new functions that are not present in the old version and the new functions have to make sure they don't affect existing functions (ex. they have to use different 'framework versions' for different versions of the app).
This inclusion of multiple framework versions to cover different revisions of the app will add bloat...
It might 'appear' as just one version but inside the app-bundle there's likely multiple revisions of the app and depending on the current license of the user one is picked on run-time.
If these methods were sustainable in the long run everyone would be doing it, not just two apps that get mentioned quite frequently...
And what guarantee do we have on apps relying heavily on server-side functionality?
At some point they will drop support for older versions.
Oh well, we'll see where things go...
...I suspect a new model for distributing paid updates popping up at WWDC'23.
As @espiegel123 has said, the time will tell.
So, now that some great responses have accumulated I will clarify: when I entitled this thread, “ Is Subscription Fair?” my thought was in regards to both sides. If we consider the survival of software companies and the survival of customers, is it fair for companies to collect subscription income in exchange for providing customers regular updates and new stuff?
I compared subscriptions to salaries and thought to myself: “what if when I was hired, my employer told me they are paying me a lump sum from the beginning to cover a lifetime of pay?”. Would that be fair to both of us. Of course, it’s kind of a ridiculous notion to try to determine fairness when no one is promised life tomorrow including businesses, but the idea of paying once and expecting companies to survive and thrive with that model seems outdated to some degree. A company like Waves makes a lot money compared to most developers and most of us, but they are definitely not swimming in cash 😂 they make about $20 million a year. Small company for sure. FLS revenue is $6 million.
I don’t like subscriptions, but I also don’t like seeing developers disappear because they don’t make enough money to keep going. I’ve been using Waves for over 20 years, but I’m definitely not married to them although at the same time they do make high quality products. There seems to be a happy medium between one-time and subscription. I do feel that Loopy Pro’s model may be the beginning to the answer, time will tell after a year of Loopy Pro.
WUP seemed fair when it happened to me recently, but it was for only one plugin at the time and I had a credit on file that covered it 😂
Perhaps we assume greed because of the tactics used by some companies to generate more income, but maybe they are doing what has historically worked for them to meet their goals.
Respectfully, comparing FL Studio to Waves is unbalanced. Not because FL Studio is not great, but because these two companies are different animals with different histories. Waves reach goes beyond our community and stretches to consumer-based products too. With their accolades and history in the professional world, Waves is a premium brand, which up until recently, was predominantly professional only. I was an early user of FL Studio, when it was just a small, free application called Fruity Loops. FLS is the people’s champ, helping the bedroom studios and even pro studios make music on the go. Waves has truly thrived in pro studios the most. Do we value Waves expertise, patent ownership, history and pedigree, some do and some don’t. It’s not for everyone.
My post is truly not about Waves vs. FLS, but they are both excellent case studies for both sides.
Same like i don’t rent HW synths (or my car) i don’t rent sofware. If app goes subscription it’s no go for me, bye app, rip. No discussion, at any condition. I’m not paying for product which is realky not mine and which can be anytime in future taken away from me (especially on iOS) no matter how much money i paid for it.
Fair? I don’t know, but I’m not doing it. I have zero music app/software subscriptions and no plans to support that.
My opinion is that there is room. In this world for all sorts of payment models. I came to the realisation that all the software I use is temporary. Any of the iOS apps could disappear at any moment. I see this with apps that have not been maintained or updated as iOS changes so really there is no guarantee that any of this software is going to be here tomorrow.
It all seems to prove the concept of illusion and impermanence since it’s all a mind construction.
I have used subscriptions where it made sense and I think the ability to drop in and out of a subscription without significant penalty is a good model. It can also be a potential good way to try out a suite of software. The idea that one is renting a studio for a time makes sense too.
I think the manner in which it is implemented is what is important. The recent Waves debacle was more an example of poor execution.
Maybe iOS music world could potentially operate the same way as GameCenter? Not saying they should just throwing up an idea. All the developers crate an alliance of sorts and all the apps are thrown in for a monthly fee. One subscription for all and then the developers all get a cut. Might work - might not. Just musing on April 1.
The topic question is silly - it is not a matter of being "fair" (whatever that is).
A subscription is a commerical offer to a buyer. If the buyer doesn't want to buy it, it doesn't matter how "fair" it is.
And it seems app buyers don't want to buy subs.
Ha! You summed up my 384 word screed neatly and said it a lot clearer than I did - though I wouldn't call the question silly. Poorly worded only, I think.
I originally had a slightly stronger word than "silly", but I edited it to be less harsh.
New mods...
Yep, given the strong anti-subscrition views here, it is more likely that any iOS devs going this route will flounder rather than succeed, unless they do a very good job of convincing the community of why that subscription is necessary and that they will get enough value to justify it. If people can choose non-subscription products offering the same or similar feature sets, it is likely they will choose the latter, based on the feedback here. That said, the age range on the forum tends to skew towards older, so perhaps young folk are less averse. However, most of them are not making music to any large extent on iPads or iPhones, or at least not buying tons of apps, I’d guess - they’re more likely using cracked software on a laptop or just a handful of apps. Or they might be getting a lot of value from a cheap desktop daw, combined with a subscription to something relatively cheap but tempting like Output Arcade. For beats and loops based stuff, which seems to be the genre de noir among that age group, something like that would make sense and be affordable. Most teens or people in their 20s are unlikely to be able to afford the app-collector mentality that dominates this forum. Most will have little interest in the tons of variations on EQs etc that Waves are offering, and certainly not if they are forced to pay annually rather than monthly.
I think there are some factors specific to iOS that make things hard for developers to keep applications running.
The Apple ecosystem in general is always changing under the feet of the developer. A new OS comes out and breaks things, the dev probably didn't get any chance to test beforehand and you can't tell your users to downgrade/reinstall if they have problems. Apple really doesn't care about breaking apps. And releases are often. It requires developers to do more maintenance
Devs also can't easily release multiple versions of an app easily on the app store. While you could put out a new version of an app each year or whatever, migrating user content between versions is a total pain (and risks losing content). Developers can charge for IAPs, but that doesn't really work for core app improvements. Loopy Pro is doing its fancy upgrade plan, but its not feasible for most developers. Its extremely complex and not something built into iOS.
These are some of the factors that push folks to do a subscription model. I don't like them at all, but with iOS being what it is they make more sense (even though usually they stop me from purchasing).
Awesome feedback, even the attacks on thread title/question 🤣
Any response is better than no response 🤷🏽♂️
I feel like this topic is a necessary “evil”.
I hope this discussion birth’s wonderful payment innovations 🙌
In the context of subscription, it might also make sense to distinguish between tools and content/services. I have no problem subscribing to content/services that I regularly consume - ad-free YouTube, Netflix, mobile phone plan, online storage etc. But in general (see exception below) I prefer owning the tools that i work or play around with, and that is the category where music plugins fall for me.
That said, I can see why someone would subscribe to Adobe or another specific collection temporarily, for a specific project. It's like renting a tool that you only need occasionally, like a van to help you move house. Makes perfect sense, even though with music plugins I personally don't need that kind of usage*.
(*"That's because you don't ever finish your tracks, mate.") 🤷
First some assumptions:
Bottom line: iOS music software users are getting the bargain of a lifetime, while iOS music app developers are getting royally shafted
How to fix this by allowing developers to be fairly compensated, while not blowing out the costs to buy their apps? No idea, but these might be worth considering:
Maybe none of these would work, but something has to change if iOS music is going to survive/thrive.
Wow, fantastic post - thank you for clearing the deck, I feel like you hit many nails on the heads!!! You also suggested some really creative solutions 🙏🏻
I’m not a gamer, but your post has made me think that perhaps the gaming world contains some viable solutions/models for our world since it is a software example where users and developers have thrived…
https://lapaas.com/how-games-earn/
I wonder if a full featured app with an up front cost of say $29.99, optional daily content subscription of $4.99 per month or .99 cents per in-app purchase might do well?
So $29.99 keeps the app working until the major version, like version 1 to 2. $4.99 per month gives unlimited access to all daily content (keep what you download forever) and .99 cents allows you to buy individual packs/presets.
This is partially what Roland is doing with ZenBeats already?!
The core app is free to download with a limited set of sounds and features and a bit more when you register with Roland.
You've then got the 'platform unlocks', 'version upgrades' and 'sound packs' to keep things up to date or go for the cloud thing to get 'everything' ZenBeats.
I got on to the ZenBeats train when V2 was offered at a serious discount during the pandemic and when V3 arrived with the ZC-1 synth it was a $4.99 upgrade which in all honesty was a 'steal' considering how much the app has improved over the years (apart from the looks it behaves like a completely different app in so many areas with plenty of fixes here and there).
I would not be surprised if we get a V4 unlock during 2023 at a reasonable cost and I'll most likely jump on it...
There are a few apps I could accept subscription for if there is a clear reliable roadmap on what to expect during the subscription period.
As an example my current Renoise license is good for a couple of years more or so considering their payment model includes a bunch updates until a specified version number, current version is 3.4.2. My current 'payment' is good until 3.5).
Oh wow! Actually I jumped on ZenBeats at that same time. Yeah, I feel like this model could work well for many apps, given the roadmap is clear and consistent content is created as an upgrade. I wonder if Output will ever dip their toes in iOS water and port Arcade? I feel like it could do well if it doesn’t add a lot of bottom line to their business. It could work as just another platform to deliver their content instead of a whole new experience.
Nice!!!
Depends. I have a subscription for my house, my car, my medical insurance, and honestly my wife and kids. If I didn’t keep the money flowing directly to each, they probably all go away. But I don’t subscribe to bread, milk, toilet paper. After I buy them and start using them, nobody wants them back.