H I L D A - FIRST UPDATE OUT!

Gavinski

I find that the frequency knob in Hilda is hard to adjust smoothly for me. When it gets going, it’s ok. But if I move it, then lift my finger, then touch again and drag, the knob takes a while to respond, and then there is always some lurching.

The (unlisted) video attached shows this. I am using a mouse in this video, and that is even more noticeable than when using finger. But with finger I run into the same problem. Anyone else? Does this not happen to you? Or have you found some workaround that does not in any way cramp your style?

What I want—of course—is to be able to predictably make very subtle changes, even when I begin moving my finger. Any time you hear a sudden jump between frequencies here, instead of a smooth glide, that is completely unintended behaviour which I am trying my best to avoid, but simply can’t.

Steps to test this:

1. Turn on the drone using the Drone knob. Touch and drag the Frequency knob on the top left , trying to get a smooth change. For me it is impossible to get a smooth glide at the beginning of the movement, only later does it smooth out
2. After dragging and achieving frequency change, remove your finger from the screen
3. Touch and drag again, as in Step 1, trying to get a smooth change instead of a lurch.

Thnx

Grandbear

@Gavinsky with straight up or down movements I see the same behavior. My workaround, which I think I shared here in the past, is to drag right and up (◞) or right and down (◝) in a curved motion. Let me know if that helps at all.

Edit: this was it, right? https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/comment/1196792/#Comment_1196792

Gavinski

@Grandbear said:
@Gavinsky with straight up or down movements I see the same behavior. My workaround, which I think I shared here in the past, is to drag right and up (◞) or right and down (◝) in a curved motion. Let me know if that helps at all.

Edit: this was it, right? https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/comment/1196792/#Comment_1196792

Thanks, I remember now we discussed this but forgot it was about Hilda. God, I'm getting annoyed by how many apps have wonky knob / slider behaviour. For some things it's not that important, but for anything related to frequencies it is super important. Some apps like Fundamental are really even more of a nightmare in this regard. Your solution mostly works for me but not 100%. I also find touching the screen a bit more gently than I usually do helps, but again I sometimes get lurches.

bygjohn

@Gavinski said:

@Grandbear said:
@Gavinsky with straight up or down movements I see the same behavior. My workaround, which I think I shared here in the past, is to drag right and up (◞) or right and down (◝) in a curved motion. Let me know if that helps at all.

Edit: this was it, right? https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/comment/1196792/#Comment_1196792

Thanks, I remember now we discussed this but forgot it was about Hilda. God, I'm getting annoyed by how many apps have wonky knob / slider behaviour. For some things it's not that important, but for anything related to frequencies it is super important. Some apps like Fundamental are really even more of a nightmare in this regard. Your solution mostly works for me but not 100%. I also find touching the screen a bit more gently than I usually do helps, but again I sometimes get lurches.

Hmm, I’ve had a couple of goes at this in standalone and AUv3, and I just get smooth movement, though I don’t like how the knobs work since Bram changed it after that discussion -if I’m trying to move a knob a long way most of the time my finger goes off the top of the screen before I’ve got where I want to go, and I also often seem to find the knob suddenly changing direction, probably because I get to the top of the screen and then start moving sideways. I don’t recall having this sort of issue before the change.

Grandbear

@bygjohn said:

@Gavinski said:

@Grandbear said:
@Gavinsky with straight up or down movements I see the same behavior. My workaround, which I think I shared here in the past, is to drag right and up (◞) or right and down (◝) in a curved motion. Let me know if that helps at all.

Edit: this was it, right? https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/comment/1196792/#Comment_1196792

Thanks, I remember now we discussed this but forgot it was about Hilda. God, I'm getting annoyed by how many apps have wonky knob / slider behaviour. For some things it's not that important, but for anything related to frequencies it is super important. Some apps like Fundamental are really even more of a nightmare in this regard. Your solution mostly works for me but not 100%. I also find touching the screen a bit more gently than I usually do helps, but again I sometimes get lurches.

Hmm, I’ve had a couple of goes at this in standalone and AUv3, and I just get smooth movement

That’s very interesting, maybe it depends on the device somehow?

Gavinski

@bygjohn said:

@Gavinski said:

@Grandbear said:
@Gavinsky with straight up or down movements I see the same behavior. My workaround, which I think I shared here in the past, is to drag right and up (◞) or right and down (◝) in a curved motion. Let me know if that helps at all.

Edit: this was it, right? https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/comment/1196792/#Comment_1196792

Thanks, I remember now we discussed this but forgot it was about Hilda. God, I'm getting annoyed by how many apps have wonky knob / slider behaviour. For some things it's not that important, but for anything related to frequencies it is super important. Some apps like Fundamental are really even more of a nightmare in this regard. Your solution mostly works for me but not 100%. I also find touching the screen a bit more gently than I usually do helps, but again I sometimes get lurches.

Hmm, I’ve had a couple of goes at this in standalone and AUv3, and I just get smooth movement, though I don’t like how the knobs work since Bram changed it after that discussion -if I’m trying to move a knob a long way most of the time my finger goes off the top of the screen before I’ve got where I want to go, and I also often seem to find the knob suddenly changing direction, probably because I get to the top of the screen and then start moving sideways. I don’t recall having this sort of issue before the change.

I have also had this changing-direction-suddenly issue, just as you described. I get it when trying to do the diagonal movement Grandbear describes.

Grandbear

@Gavinski said:

@bygjohn said:

@Gavinski said:

@Grandbear said:
@Gavinsky with straight up or down movements I see the same behavior. My workaround, which I think I shared here in the past, is to drag right and up (◞) or right and down (◝) in a curved motion. Let me know if that helps at all.

Edit: this was it, right? https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/comment/1196792/#Comment_1196792

Thanks, I remember now we discussed this but forgot it was about Hilda. God, I'm getting annoyed by how many apps have wonky knob / slider behaviour. For some things it's not that important, but for anything related to frequencies it is super important. Some apps like Fundamental are really even more of a nightmare in this regard. Your solution mostly works for me but not 100%. I also find touching the screen a bit more gently than I usually do helps, but again I sometimes get lurches.

Hmm, I’ve had a couple of goes at this in standalone and AUv3, and I just get smooth movement, though I don’t like how the knobs work since Bram changed it after that discussion -if I’m trying to move a knob a long way most of the time my finger goes off the top of the screen before I’ve got where I want to go, and I also often seem to find the knob suddenly changing direction, probably because I get to the top of the screen and then start moving sideways. I don’t recall having this sort of issue before the change.

I have also had this changing-direction-suddenly issue, just as you described. I get it when trying to do the diagonal movement Grandbear describes.

I forgot to mention that this happens to me from time to time too, I haven’t tried to determine how exactly

Gavinski

@Grandbear said:

@Gavinski said:

@bygjohn said:

@Gavinski said:

@Grandbear said:
@Gavinsky with straight up or down movements I see the same behavior. My workaround, which I think I shared here in the past, is to drag right and up (◞) or right and down (◝) in a curved motion. Let me know if that helps at all.

Edit: this was it, right? https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/comment/1196792/#Comment_1196792

Thanks, I remember now we discussed this but forgot it was about Hilda. God, I'm getting annoyed by how many apps have wonky knob / slider behaviour. For some things it's not that important, but for anything related to frequencies it is super important. Some apps like Fundamental are really even more of a nightmare in this regard. Your solution mostly works for me but not 100%. I also find touching the screen a bit more gently than I usually do helps, but again I sometimes get lurches.

Hmm, I’ve had a couple of goes at this in standalone and AUv3, and I just get smooth movement, though I don’t like how the knobs work since Bram changed it after that discussion -if I’m trying to move a knob a long way most of the time my finger goes off the top of the screen before I’ve got where I want to go, and I also often seem to find the knob suddenly changing direction, probably because I get to the top of the screen and then start moving sideways. I don’t recall having this sort of issue before the change.

I have also had this changing-direction-suddenly issue, just as you described. I get it when trying to do the diagonal movement Grandbear describes.

I forgot to mention that this happens to me from time to time too, I haven’t tried to determine how exactly

Overall, this is not a good implementation for me. It's hard to find one that is good, tbh, but some are better than others. Beep Street's knob behaviour is among the best (Dagger, for example) but even with that I sometimes still get lurches when trying to glide smoothly.

KMTGN

AUM's knobs and faders work smoothly. The developer should share the secret sauce))

Gavinski

You know, although his apps may not have had the best UI in general, those Anthony Difuria apps had a valid approach to knobs for cases where you want to adjust how fine your changes are. You tap the arrows above the knob to adjust how fine your control would be. This is very useful for drone music, where you really need to have extremely fine control of frequency. Contrast that with an app like Fundamental, most frequency knobs in most apps, in fact. Fundamental is in theory perfect for manipulating various oscillator pitches in real time, but in reality is a nightmare when it comes to live tweaking. The new Nonatone app also suffers from problems in this regard. Hard to quickly and smoothly dial in the exact pitch you want. I assume this is easier with hardware knobs? Or does much hardware gear also suffer from these kinds of issues?

@KMTGN said:
AUM's knobs and faders work smoothly. The developer should share the secret sauce))

bygjohn

@Gavinski said:
You know, although his apps may not have had the best UI in general, those Anthony Difuria apps had a valid approach to knobs for cases where you want to adjust how fine your changes are. You tap the arrows above the knob to adjust how fine your control would be. This is very useful for drone music, where you really need to have extremely fine control of frequency. Contrast that with an app like Fundamental, most frequency knobs in most apps, in fact. Fundamental is in theory perfect for manipulating various oscillator pitches in real time, but in reality is a nightmare when it comes to live tweaking. The new Nonatone app also suffers from problems in this regard. Hard to quickly and smoothly dial in the exact pitch you want. I assume this is easier with hardware knobs? Or does much hardware gear also suffer from these kinds of issues?

@KMTGN said:
AUM's knobs and faders work smoothly. The developer should share the secret sauce))

Depends on the hardware! Most of my hardware kit is hard to tune accurately as the frequency knobs have such a wide range, and there’s no such thing as a fine tune control. It’s particularly difficult with those little knobs you get on Moog instruments like the Mavis, DFAM and SubH.

That said, once tuned they are pretty stable as long as you let them warm up. And the SubH’s quantisation is pretty accurate (has to be, considering how the thing works) - the problem is dialling in exactly the note you want.

My DecadeBridge drone synths are similar, but they are meant to be twiddled with as you go anyway. You can tune them, but it’s similar to tuning the Moogs in terms of difficulty.

All of which probably contributes to my cavalier attitude to tuning these days - I tend to just use my ears a lot of the time!

Gavinski

@bygjohn said:

@Gavinski said:
You know, although his apps may not have had the best UI in general, those Anthony Difuria apps had a valid approach to knobs for cases where you want to adjust how fine your changes are. You tap the arrows above the knob to adjust how fine your control would be. This is very useful for drone music, where you really need to have extremely fine control of frequency. Contrast that with an app like Fundamental, most frequency knobs in most apps, in fact. Fundamental is in theory perfect for manipulating various oscillator pitches in real time, but in reality is a nightmare when it comes to live tweaking. The new Nonatone app also suffers from problems in this regard. Hard to quickly and smoothly dial in the exact pitch you want. I assume this is easier with hardware knobs? Or does much hardware gear also suffer from these kinds of issues?

@KMTGN said:
AUM's knobs and faders work smoothly. The developer should share the secret sauce))

Depends on the hardware! Most of my hardware kit is hard to tune accurately as the frequency knobs have such a wide range, and there’s no such thing as a fine tune control. It’s particularly difficult with those little knobs you get on Moog instruments like the Mavis, DFAM and SubH.

That said, once tuned they are pretty stable as long as you let them warm up. And the SubH’s quantisation is pretty accurate (has to be, considering how the thing works) - the problem is dialling in exactly the note you want.

My DecadeBridge drone synths are similar, but they are meant to be twiddled with as you go anyway. You can tune them, but it’s similar to tuning the Moogs in terms of difficulty.

All of which probably contributes to my cavalier attitude to tuning these days - I tend to just use my ears a lot of the time!

Interesting! Btw, I am talking about using my ears. Although I like visual feedback too, when doing drone stuff I adjust in terms of what sounds good. But I do expect the app to help my ability to tune in the sound I want, not to hinder it! Doesn't seem much to ask, but it is hard to find nevertheless. This is the appeal of big knobs in hardware. Maybe midi 2.0 will solve a lot of these problems as we'll be able to work with controllers, whether hardware or virtual, in high res, instead of being stuck with the 128 values midi CC sends, which just doesn't work well for fine tuning of oscillators.

bygjohn

@Gavinski said:

@bygjohn said:

@Gavinski said:
You know, although his apps may not have had the best UI in general, those Anthony Difuria apps had a valid approach to knobs for cases where you want to adjust how fine your changes are. You tap the arrows above the knob to adjust how fine your control would be. This is very useful for drone music, where you really need to have extremely fine control of frequency. Contrast that with an app like Fundamental, most frequency knobs in most apps, in fact. Fundamental is in theory perfect for manipulating various oscillator pitches in real time, but in reality is a nightmare when it comes to live tweaking. The new Nonatone app also suffers from problems in this regard. Hard to quickly and smoothly dial in the exact pitch you want. I assume this is easier with hardware knobs? Or does much hardware gear also suffer from these kinds of issues?

@KMTGN said:
AUM's knobs and faders work smoothly. The developer should share the secret sauce))

Depends on the hardware! Most of my hardware kit is hard to tune accurately as the frequency knobs have such a wide range, and there’s no such thing as a fine tune control. It’s particularly difficult with those little knobs you get on Moog instruments like the Mavis, DFAM and SubH.

That said, once tuned they are pretty stable as long as you let them warm up. And the SubH’s quantisation is pretty accurate (has to be, considering how the thing works) - the problem is dialling in exactly the note you want.

My DecadeBridge drone synths are similar, but they are meant to be twiddled with as you go anyway. You can tune them, but it’s similar to tuning the Moogs in terms of difficulty.

All of which probably contributes to my cavalier attitude to tuning these days - I tend to just use my ears a lot of the time!

Interesting! Btw, I am talking about using my ears. Although I like visual feedback too, when doing drone stuff I adjust in terms of what sounds good. But I do expect the app to help my ability to tune in the sound I want, not to hinder it! Doesn't seem much to ask, but it is hard to find nevertheless. This is the appeal of big knobs in hardware. Maybe midi 2.0 will solve a lot of these problems as we'll be able to work with controllers, whether hardware or virtual, in high res, instead of being stuck with the 128 values midi CC sends, which just doesn't work well for fine tuning of oscillators.

Oh yeah, I didn’t think you weren’t (using your ears), IYSWIM. Particularly when listening for frequencies interacting/beating etc, it’s really annoying if you overshoot, doubly so if the control is the cause.

To be fair to Moog, they do sell knob sets that go over the little knobs, making for bigger knobs that are easier to control, I’ve just never got around to buying them. Plus I have a suspicion they might make it easier to knock the knobs accidentally, or not leave enough room between controls for comfort - particularly on the Mavis.