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Comments
I'd bet a nickel that the cost of debt drove this choice. If you can only count on selling X units for Y profit, but you need to sell X+Z to pay off the debt required to make manufacturing runs, something will have to give.
Doesn't help that analog gear is ubiquitous and readily affordable now, not just from Behringer but many others.
Those MoogerFoogers do sound good but to be fair there is very little thatâs really innovative about them. Generally you have the impression of a company thatâs not really thinking outside the box. Resting on their laurels a bit, yes. Well, with the recent fall from grace they will have to try hard to get back in peopleâs good books, maybe that will force some real innovation, who knows.
Who knows, but I'd bet it was the fact that they were being undercut by Behringer and the fact that software emulations are so good now that they can replace hardware... plus people just aren't attending live events like they used to.
Animoog 1 is still a classic if you ask me. Especially that time ago. To me itâs in the Samplr leage of the early iOS era.
And then there is the Mother.
And its not just Moog. The users havenât been so innovative either.
I completely disagree but sure. Are they as innovative as some other manufacturers? No. But I donât see how someone could look at the Grandmother, Sub37, Moog One, Subharmonicon, DFAM, Matriarch, Sirin and then say theyâre all the same.
There is no reason Moog couldn't have found ways to reduce the cost of their products to Behringer levels or at least a lot closer to them. They didn't think they had to, or just didn't want to, or just didn't have the will or foresight. They lost the bet. It happens to companies every single day with far larger impact on jobs without all this attention.
We can wring our hands about it and blame our favorite evil entities if it makes us feel better I guess, but at the end of the day it is Moog management that failed to adapt. At least the brand will survive, those that didn't lose their jobs (yet) still have them, and those "employee owners," if that is accurate, may have gotten a little bit of their investment back.
And we get something to feed our sense of societal victimhood without having any skin in the game to boot. đ
P.S. Sorry for inciting rants about that YouTube video. I shouldn't have criticized the video or its author when my real puzzlement was over how people can stand to slog through videos that could be summed up in a paragraph of text.
Counterpoint: DFAM, Subharmonicon, Theremini, Animoog.
I feel the same.
I donât think you incited anything. Sometimes everyone has their own reason for commenting when they comment. I agree with you on the video, but really had nothing to add. Sometimes videos donât get to the point quickly at all, and thatâs the aspect of that one that stood out for me.
The DFAM is 100% analogue, which is cool in theory but a hassle in practice. Even some of the most basic quality-of-life additions are absent â for instance, you need to select Step 8 if you want the sequence to start on Step 1, so itâs quite common to mash the Advance Step button five-to-seven times before hitting Play. Itâs quirky and fun but I agree that MIDI sync and a more robust sequencer would make it much more appealing.
Same goes for the Mavis â itâs a terrific and exciting instrument if youâre already invested in Eurorack (especially Moogâs semi-modular gear), but the 100% analogue design poses a barrier to entry on what is ostensibly a âbeginnerâs instrument.â MIDI input would have gone a long way.
That's not at all what he said. In fact he specifically said he understands why some people like Behringer gear and there's nothing wrong with buying it.
Yeah I genuinely think they couldâve sold 2x what they did if they added those small QOL features to the âMotherâ line.
Yeah he does specifically state he understands that why he understands why "some" people by Behringer gear and that there is nothing wrong with that and then goes on to state the exact opposite with comments like how you're buying products manufactured in a dystopian prison complex etc...
It's cowardly really. If he was being honest he would just say that he doesn't agree with folks buying Behringer gear (which he clearly doesn't going by the YouTube vid) and have done with it. I would be okay with that.
Yeah he does specifically state he understands why "some" people buy Behringer gear and that there is nothing wrong with that and then goes on to state the exact opposite with comments like how you're buying products manufactured in a dystopian prison complex etc...
It's cowardly really. If he was being honest he would just say that he doesn't agree with folks buying Behringer gear (which he clearly doesn't going by the YouTube vid) and have done with it. I would be okay with that.
/rant over. On a personal note I do like this reviewer and will continue to watch his content. I do understand why he feels so angry about it.
It should be noted that I am a fan of Moog and I think it's a shame what's happening to them.
EDIT. Also. Ignore me Tarekith. I've got a cold and I'm grumpy.
This just popped up in my Reddit feedâŠ
https://reddit.com/r/moog/s/myX2a1ZPbn
It claims to be a tell all (well, some) by an employeeâŠ
You are correct in your summary, the same could probably said of quite a lot of consumer products made in China if given scrutiny, but also of some working conditions in the West. Hope youâre feeling better soon btw.
Yeh. I figured that "employee owned" shit smelled about like what it apparently was. Wanted it to be true but figured it was more like a golden parachute or two for some of the top brass. This isn't helping me in the cynicism department one bit.
I hope the remaining talent see the writing on the wall before it's too late and aren't as dumb as I was too many times.
Agreed.
Talking of products made in China.
Behringer wasn't the cause of Moog's Demise
Mike Adams was.
https://musictech.com/news/industry/moog-ceo-reached-out-to-uli-behringer-to-try-and-sell-company-behringer-claims/#:\~:text=The%20post%20explains%20that%2C%20while,on%20the%20supply%20chain%20side.https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=225975 - Will Behringer Devalue Moog?
As a former employee, I do not find this revelation of Mike Adams trying to sell out the entire company to Behringer before selling to inMusic surprising, at all.
Some common (very big) misconceptions: Moog products, aside from the old full size Mooger Foogers, the Voyagers, the Model D RIs, and the Modular RIs, were all prepopulated micro component PCBs, shipped from China. Along with the products listed above, everything else was only ever ASSEMBLED in the Asheville 'factory'. When I first started working there, products were actually given a 24 hour burn in period (as most of you will know in electronics, if an outright failure will occur it will most often occur within this 24 hour period), they were properly tested, flagged for flaws or blemishes to be fixed or remedied.
By the time I left, products routinely were being skipped over the 24 hour burn in process. Blemishes that would have gotten a product rehoused in a new chassis were sent out the door, not as B stock, as A stock just like all the other products that didn't have any blemishes or issues.
Bonuses were based on a year to year product SALES goal, regardless of production issues (shipments getting lost in Jamaica), or market estimations. If one single line out of the entire production facility did not hit their goal, for the year, NO ONE got bonuses! As I said, regardless of the fact that an entire shipment of Sub 37 boards got 'lost' in Jamaica for months.
Bob's history is quite the tale, I won't go into all of it right now, and this is not in any way to degrade Bob's accomplishments and engineering feats, but he was no business savant. Not many people know that when he first sold the company to Norlin Musical Instruments he sold the right to use the Moog name. When he came back it was as Big Briar and eventually he got the rights back to use his own name, what a country we live in that allows contracts for that lol.
After a few years of returning as Moog Music, he got into business with Mike Adams. While Bob was designing and leading the engineering team, Mike was the bean counter in charge of the business side of things. After Bob's death, Bob's interest shares went to his family, which were then sold to Mike Adams. Regardless of selling those shares to Mike, controlling management interests can not be transferred in death, only the financial ownership side.
A few of you may have heard about the "Employee Owned" bit that was obviously just paid publicity. I was there when it was rolled out. Employees never owned anything, any shares, nothing. Employees were not vested, until the terms were met in the ESOP. The ESOP was just a tax free retirement for Mike Adams, masquerading and plastered everywhere as generosity, what an amazing company.
That was all bs. The shares were never publicly traded, never available to anyone to cash out, again, until the terms of the ESOP were met and everyone was vested. I would welcome any Employee that was working with Moog during this period that was receiving those lovely letters each year telling you how much fake stock you had and how much money it wasn't actually worth to actually give a value that they were paid out from their "ESOP ownership shares". If anyone received more than $0, I'll actually be surprised. Don't get the ESOP shares and payout conflated with a severance package. That's not what the ESOP was. Those are two different things.
My main point of making this post is just to say that, the Moog Music that you all did believe in, in terms of people being employed here in the US to put these instruments together and send them to you, was real. A lot of great people worked at Moog. A lot of great people got screwed over by this, all while being sold snake oil that it'd never happen. Unfortunately a lot of the publicity side, the advertising side, was complete bullshit.
The writing was on the wall though .https://www.npr.org/2018/07/02/625363659/moog-says-chinese-tariffs-may-force-a-move-overseas Anyone who was working at the company when this 'announcement' was made, should have had one hell of a wake up call. Mike never seemed to have had any pride or respect for Bob, or the company, the people, the products. It was all just a business transaction and another way to make money.
I won't even go into the Moogfest debacle and tale, but, most people have no idea that Mike/Moog just up and cancelled a multiyear contract and is being sued for millions of dollars as a result. Nothing was really what it seemed with the company. https://musictech.com/news/moog-reportedly-being-sued-over-the-cancellation-of-moogfest-2020/
I know it's kind of a dead horse at this point, but, unfortunately a lot of people were duped by Adams and the advertising/publicity the company used, that goes for the employees working there and the customers buying the products.
The above should have been in quotes but Iâm on a iPad.
So folks taking the moral high ground about Behringer because their stuff was made in China, guess what. Moog did exactly the same. Pre populated PCBs from China prisons/sweatshops/work camps/under ground working mines shipped to the US and assembled into enclosures and folks buying them because âTheyâre made in the good old US of Aâ. I wonder if any of the commentators will withdraw their statements and issue an apology. Iâm not holding my breath.
Long live Uli. At least heâs honest about where his stuff is coming from.
/another rant over.
Thanks @cyberheater for the posting the information, investigation is truly the only way to uncover the âtruthâ which may be multifaceted, itâs also sometimes quite time consuming.
Yes. The truth is often nuanced and we live in a cancel culture world where things can only be stark black and white.
That was magnificent.
I learned more from your account than from all the articles of the past week (or next week)
Thanks
That's not his account. It's a copy and paste of the reddit post linked earlier which was written by someone claiming to be a former moog employee!
OuchâŠ
True @Gavinski but the information @cyberheater posted can be at least in part cross checked with the links it references, does this make it 100% accurate, well no of course, as @cyberheater states truth is often nuanced, looking at all available evidence and checking it against other âfactsâ thatâs how we really determine the most reasonable âtruthâ.
Iâm simply correcting @JeffChasteenâs misunderstanding that this was Cyberheaterâs account. Nowhere did I mention whether I thought it was true or not. Itâs certainly highly interesting and disturbing reading, if true, thatâs for sure.
Something people still donât understand about manufacturing in China: If Moog was indeed having most of their printed circuit board components pre-populated, that information had to be reported to a Federal agency in the US and it would have to be indicated on the final Moog product, either on the boxes they were packed in or on the PCBs themselves. If some brave person opens their Moog theyâd likely see this inside the case.
Also, the factories in China can fabricate ANY level of quality, as long as a company is willing to pay for it AND as long as a company is willing to constantly stay on their toes and check what they are receiving from the factories. In my day, it wasnât uncommon for corners to be cut and substitutions made by manufacturers without warning all the time. Fraud and cheating was rampant.
I know and agree with you, but as @NeuM states sadly wouldnât shock me if it was true.
Wouldnât surprise me either at this point, sadly, lol