Moog is now part of inMusic: UPDATE 😞

HotStrange

@AlmostAnonymous said:

@HotStrange said:

@NeuM said:

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
On the bright side, there is no longer any reason to feel guilty about buying Behringer's Moog knockoffs!

LOL. I suppose so. They may end up using the exact same suppliers.

Doesn’t Music Tribe already make a lot of the circuits that other companies use or am I misremembering?

They own coolaudio, which basically makes all those audio chips, vco chips, etc…
Honestly buying that company up was uli’s smartest move business wise

For sure. I thought I remembered reading that back when there was a shortage on VCO chips.

NeuM

@AlmostAnonymous said:

@HotStrange said:

@NeuM said:

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
On the bright side, there is no longer any reason to feel guilty about buying Behringer's Moog knockoffs!

LOL. I suppose so. They may end up using the exact same suppliers.

Doesn’t Music Tribe already make a lot of the circuits that other companies use or am I misremembering?

They own coolaudio, which basically makes all those audio chips, vco chips, etc…
Honestly buying that company up was uli’s smartest move business wise

To clarify, Behringer owns the IP of the company they acquired, manufacturing is done by companies owned by China-based companies (and nearly all companies of this type are partly or completely owned by the Chinese government, or have investments in them from their government).

This is similar to Apple's connection to China-based manufacturing and assembly work. Apple doesn't own the facilities or directly employ the workers in the factories. The majority of that is controlled by Foxconn, a Taiwan-based company with longstanding agreements with China.

Fingolfinzz

@NeuM said:

@Fingolfinzz said:
Workers rights in the US are an absolute joke. They even get a majority of our dumb ass citizens to vote against their own rights by attacking their fragile masculinity basically

Employment is voluntary in the US and no one is or should be guaranteed a job. The details of the agreements reached between employer and employee are private and come as a result of negotiation between the parties. Mandatory employment is a recipe for economic ruin.

Workers having more rights isn’t some radical idea that leads to 1984

NeuM

@Fingolfinzz said:

@NeuM said:

@Fingolfinzz said:
Workers rights in the US are an absolute joke. They even get a majority of our dumb ass citizens to vote against their own rights by attacking their fragile masculinity basically

Employment is voluntary in the US and no one is or should be guaranteed a job. The details of the agreements reached between employer and employee are private and come as a result of negotiation between the parties. Mandatory employment is a recipe for economic ruin.

Workers having more rights isn’t some radical idea that leads to 1984

What "rights" are you referring to?

abf

@bygjohn said:

@Svetlovska said:
The total package that came with my Sound Studio 3 was the best I have had for any piece of hardware in recent years. Proper perfect bound manuals for the DFAM, Mother 32 and Subharmonicon, a patching card game, two rather beautiful posters, an ideas patch book… the sense of care, commitment, and fun was palpable. Necessary ? No. Lovely? Most certainly, yes. I’m just glad I sprung for them when I did. I don’t anticipate such care for Moog products in the future. Behringer might not be the biggest bad out in hardware land after all.

The whole package is a thing of beauty. And the same sort of care went into their cheaper stuff, eg the Mavis. I feel really lucky I got some real Moog hardware just in time.

Horrible for the workers - first the company they were touted as owning sold out from under them, now this. Just a shell left. Hopefully someone with some vision will snap up that talent and make something wonderful from the ashes.

I agree. I got just the DFAM/M-32 combo, not the Subharmonicon. But wow, what a beautiful package that is. The Moogs are very well made, no issues at all, and they sound fantastic. The Moog sound studio is a very rewarding purchase for me.

AlmostAnonymous

@NeuM said:

@AlmostAnonymous said:

@HotStrange said:

@NeuM said:

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
On the bright side, there is no longer any reason to feel guilty about buying Behringer's Moog knockoffs!

LOL. I suppose so. They may end up using the exact same suppliers.

Doesn’t Music Tribe already make a lot of the circuits that other companies use or am I misremembering?

They own coolaudio, which basically makes all those audio chips, vco chips, etc…
Honestly buying that company up was uli’s smartest move business wise

To clarify, Behringer owns the IP of the company they acquired, manufacturing is done by companies owned by China-based companies (and nearly all companies of this type are partly or completely owned by the Chinese government, or have investments in them from their government).

This is similar to Apple's connection to China-based manufacturing and assembly work. Apple doesn't own the facilities or directly employ the workers in the factories. The majority of that is controlled by Foxconn, a Taiwan-based company with longstanding agreements with China.

I’m all for arguing semantics to the end, but cmon bro, loooooooool

purpan2

@NeuM said:

@AlmostAnonymous said:

@HotStrange said:

@NeuM said:

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
On the bright side, there is no longer any reason to feel guilty about buying Behringer's Moog knockoffs!

LOL. I suppose so. They may end up using the exact same suppliers.

Doesn’t Music Tribe already make a lot of the circuits that other companies use or am I misremembering?

They own coolaudio, which basically makes all those audio chips, vco chips, etc…
Honestly buying that company up was uli’s smartest move business wise

To clarify, Behringer owns the IP of the company they acquired, manufacturing is done by companies owned by China-based companies (and nearly all companies of this type are partly or completely owned by the Chinese government, or have investments in them from their government).

This is similar to Apple's connection to China-based manufacturing and assembly work. Apple doesn't own the facilities or directly employ the workers in the factories. The majority of that is controlled by Foxconn, a Taiwan-based company with longstanding agreements with China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

NeuM

@purpan2 said:

@NeuM said:

@AlmostAnonymous said:

@HotStrange said:

@NeuM said:

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
On the bright side, there is no longer any reason to feel guilty about buying Behringer's Moog knockoffs!

LOL. I suppose so. They may end up using the exact same suppliers.

Doesn’t Music Tribe already make a lot of the circuits that other companies use or am I misremembering?

They own coolaudio, which basically makes all those audio chips, vco chips, etc…
Honestly buying that company up was uli’s smartest move business wise

To clarify, Behringer owns the IP of the company they acquired, manufacturing is done by companies owned by China-based companies (and nearly all companies of this type are partly or completely owned by the Chinese government, or have investments in them from their government).

This is similar to Apple's connection to China-based manufacturing and assembly work. Apple doesn't own the facilities or directly employ the workers in the factories. The majority of that is controlled by Foxconn, a Taiwan-based company with longstanding agreements with China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

And what's your point?

Gavinski

@NeuM said:

@purpan2 said:

@NeuM said:

@AlmostAnonymous said:

@HotStrange said:

@NeuM said:

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
On the bright side, there is no longer any reason to feel guilty about buying Behringer's Moog knockoffs!

LOL. I suppose so. They may end up using the exact same suppliers.

Doesn’t Music Tribe already make a lot of the circuits that other companies use or am I misremembering?

They own coolaudio, which basically makes all those audio chips, vco chips, etc…
Honestly buying that company up was uli’s smartest move business wise

To clarify, Behringer owns the IP of the company they acquired, manufacturing is done by companies owned by China-based companies (and nearly all companies of this type are partly or completely owned by the Chinese government, or have investments in them from their government).

This is similar to Apple's connection to China-based manufacturing and assembly work. Apple doesn't own the facilities or directly employ the workers in the factories. The majority of that is controlled by Foxconn, a Taiwan-based company with longstanding agreements with China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

And what's your point?

Probably that your apple device, along with having left a good dose of environmental destruction in its wake, also leaves a trail of human suffering. But hey, this is not the place to go too deep down these rabbit holes of it's going to lead to political arguments

NeuM

@Gavinski said:

@NeuM said:

@purpan2 said:

@NeuM said:

@AlmostAnonymous said:

@HotStrange said:

@NeuM said:

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
On the bright side, there is no longer any reason to feel guilty about buying Behringer's Moog knockoffs!

LOL. I suppose so. They may end up using the exact same suppliers.

Doesn’t Music Tribe already make a lot of the circuits that other companies use or am I misremembering?

They own coolaudio, which basically makes all those audio chips, vco chips, etc…
Honestly buying that company up was uli’s smartest move business wise

To clarify, Behringer owns the IP of the company they acquired, manufacturing is done by companies owned by China-based companies (and nearly all companies of this type are partly or completely owned by the Chinese government, or have investments in them from their government).

This is similar to Apple's connection to China-based manufacturing and assembly work. Apple doesn't own the facilities or directly employ the workers in the factories. The majority of that is controlled by Foxconn, a Taiwan-based company with longstanding agreements with China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

And what's your point?

Probably that your apple device, along with having left a good dose of environmental destruction in its wake, also leaves a trail of human suffering. But hey, this is not the place to go too deep down these rabbit holes of it's going to lead to political arguments

Foxconn makes everyone's phones and electronic devices, so that was a Foxconn issue, not an Apple issue. Apple pushed them to pay higher wages. Apple didn't have to do that. No other phone company insisted on it.

And regarding the "environmental destruction" part, have you seen how much environmental damage is done in the course of making solar panels, lithium batteries or wind turbines?

Hazards stemming from solar panel production: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2021/06/21/why-everything-they-said-about-solar---including-that-its-clean-and-cheap---was-wrong/?sh=3290baff5fe5

purpan2

@Gavinski said:

@NeuM said:

@purpan2 said:

@NeuM said:

@AlmostAnonymous said:

@HotStrange said:

@NeuM said:

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
On the bright side, there is no longer any reason to feel guilty about buying Behringer's Moog knockoffs!

LOL. I suppose so. They may end up using the exact same suppliers.

Doesn’t Music Tribe already make a lot of the circuits that other companies use or am I misremembering?

They own coolaudio, which basically makes all those audio chips, vco chips, etc…
Honestly buying that company up was uli’s smartest move business wise

To clarify, Behringer owns the IP of the company they acquired, manufacturing is done by companies owned by China-based companies (and nearly all companies of this type are partly or completely owned by the Chinese government, or have investments in them from their government).

This is similar to Apple's connection to China-based manufacturing and assembly work. Apple doesn't own the facilities or directly employ the workers in the factories. The majority of that is controlled by Foxconn, a Taiwan-based company with longstanding agreements with China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

And what's your point?

Probably that your apple device, along with having left a good dose of environmental destruction in its wake, also leaves a trail of human suffering. But hey, this is not the place to go too deep down these rabbit holes of it's going to lead to political arguments

Yes, this. Workers' rights aren't a plot to destroy profit; they're a way to claim a little protection against the inevitable harmful effects of a world that increasingly places profit above all else.
But I agree with Gavinski that this isn't the place for political arguments, so to bring things back on topic, I'll just add that that I sold my Moog Prodigy years ago, at a bargain price. I never really got on with the sound. (I regret it now, of course...)

NeuM

@purpan2 said:

@Gavinski said:

@NeuM said:

@purpan2 said:

@NeuM said:

@AlmostAnonymous said:

@HotStrange said:

@NeuM said:

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
On the bright side, there is no longer any reason to feel guilty about buying Behringer's Moog knockoffs!

LOL. I suppose so. They may end up using the exact same suppliers.

Doesn’t Music Tribe already make a lot of the circuits that other companies use or am I misremembering?

They own coolaudio, which basically makes all those audio chips, vco chips, etc…
Honestly buying that company up was uli’s smartest move business wise

To clarify, Behringer owns the IP of the company they acquired, manufacturing is done by companies owned by China-based companies (and nearly all companies of this type are partly or completely owned by the Chinese government, or have investments in them from their government).

This is similar to Apple's connection to China-based manufacturing and assembly work. Apple doesn't own the facilities or directly employ the workers in the factories. The majority of that is controlled by Foxconn, a Taiwan-based company with longstanding agreements with China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

And what's your point?

Probably that your apple device, along with having left a good dose of environmental destruction in its wake, also leaves a trail of human suffering. But hey, this is not the place to go too deep down these rabbit holes of it's going to lead to political arguments

Yes, this. Workers' rights aren't a plot to destroy profit; they're a way to claim a little protection against the inevitable harmful effects of a world that increasingly places profit above all else.
But I agree with Gavinski that this isn't the place for political arguments, so to bring things back on topic, I'll just add that that I sold my Moog Prodigy years ago, at a bargain price. I never really got on with the sound. (I regret it now, of course...)

How are those "worker's rights" working out in China? I've been in the factories they don't want you to see where compliance is not followed and where kids are working in hazardous conditions. This stuff happens all over China because these people still have to eat somehow. And the nice big, clean factories they show to foreigners also use these out of compliance smaller factories, but they don't report it. If you're looking 'over here' as a visitor to a factory, there's simultaneously something going on 'over there' that you won't see. I'm well aware of how they play the shell games over there.

dendy

@NeuM said:
How are those "worker's rights" working out in China? I've been in the factories they don't want you to see where compliance is not followed and where kids are working in hazardous conditions. This stuff happens all over China because these people still have to eat somehow.

This. Also other part of reality is that if there wouldn't be those factories, those workers (includig kids) would be probably forced to live on street as homeless OR sell their bodies for food. China is extreme enviroment and sadly we can't apply rules of our western civilisation to them. No matter how much we don't like that. It's not that i approve that. I don't like that very much. But i also understand, there are still much worse scenarios for those poor people.

Western hipsters woke activists tends to scream about rejecting products made in China because of this, thinking it helps to solve problem - but i am pretty sure most of those people would not thank them if they lost job because company decides do close operation in China because of protests/activists.

Plus big companies like Apple are already providim much better conditions for workers even in China, than those.. less big.

Luxthor

@wim said:

@Luxthor said:

@wim said:

@Luxthor said:
Should we start sampling all Moog instruments? Our patches, at least! I still didn't use extensively anything on Moog, but I invested too much money, and after all this crap happened, I started to be concerned.

This will certainly have a negative effect on my future use of those apps. 😳

Why all the drama? They laid off some people working on building hardware in the US to move production to China. That has nothing to do with software. Those apps are great marketing and virtually all the cost has already been put into them. Keeping them running is well worth the small cost to do so. Letting them die would hurt the brand.

I don't believe this has any impact at all on the future of those apps. The only thing that would impact your use of them is if they decided the whopping $99 a year developer account fee was more than they could handle and they disappeared from the App Store. That simply isn't going to happen. Even then you'd only be affected if you got a new device and didn't have a backup of the app. OK, there's a remote chance an iOS update could break an app and they wouldn't fix it. Highly unlikely.

As for hardware, it's not like all the Moog synths in the world magically cease to function if the company disappears (which also isn't going to happen).

I don’t see any drama. It is just a smart precaution and backup, or you think that actually nothing really happened. Don’t worry, my intention is not to start another abandonware or drama queen thread; you know me already that much.

I’m just in a lucky position to simply backup or sample out my humble collection of instruments and patches. Not, for example, like Eric Johnson, who needs a personal electronic engineer to keep some historical versions of his guitar amp crucial for his signature sound.

I want to say that I didn't mean to imply you were trying to be a drama queen, only that I believe there's way less actual reason for alarm than you expressed. I should have kept the drama out of my own post! 😂

It’s already a dramatic situation with all those people left without jobs. No offense is taken. 🤝

Still, I really don't think there's much to worry about from a software standpoint. No way I would put the chance of them breaking and not being fixed anywhere near 90% chance that they will be nonexistent. I'd put it more like 1%.

That said, one can never have too many backups!

In that hypothetical situation, all of the main development teams leave the codebase behind. Finding someone to bug-fix and recompile is easy. Finding a team to continue the development of new features is hard. There is a simple reason for that: the cost and time invested in the re-development of an unknown codebase are greater than programming from the ground up.

NeuM

@dendy said:

@NeuM said:
How are those "worker's rights" working out in China? I've been in the factories they don't want you to see where compliance is not followed and where kids are working in hazardous conditions. This stuff happens all over China because these people still have to eat somehow.

This. Also other part of reality is that if there wouldn't be those factories, those workers (includig kids) would be probably forced to live on street as homeless OR sell their bodies for food. China is extreme enviroment and sadly we can't apply rules of our western civilisation to them. No matter how much we don't like that.

Plus big companies like Apple are already providim much better conditions for workers even in China, than those.. less big.

Exactly. China is a country so vast that most outsiders simply have no clue what goes on there.

wim

@Luxthor said:
In that hypothetical situation, all of the main development teams leave the codebase behind. Finding someone to bug-fix and recompile is easy. Finding a team to continue the development of new features is hard. There is a simple reason for that: the cost and time invested in the re-development of an unknown codebase are greater than programming from the ground up.

Who needs new features for Moog apps? They’re fine as-is.

dendy

@wim said:

@Luxthor said:
In that hypothetical situation, all of the main development teams leave the codebase behind. Finding someone to bug-fix and recompile is easy. Finding a team to continue the development of new features is hard. There is a simple reason for that: the cost and time invested in the re-development of an unknown codebase are greater than programming from the ground up.

Who needs new features for Moof apps? They’re fine as-is.

Well.. honestly i would appreciate better filter on Model D APP, at least quality of the one used in Moogerfooger collection. Casue honestly resonance of Model D app filter is shit.

Luxthor

@wim said:

@Luxthor said:
In that hypothetical situation, all of the main development teams leave the codebase behind. Finding someone to bug-fix and recompile is easy. Finding a team to continue the development of new features is hard. There is a simple reason for that: the cost and time invested in the re-development of an unknown codebase are greater than programming from the ground up.

Who needs new features for Moof apps? They’re fine as-is.

Apple, when they decide to deprecate entire libraries.

wim

@dendy said:

@wim said:

@Luxthor said:
In that hypothetical situation, all of the main development teams leave the codebase behind. Finding someone to bug-fix and recompile is easy. Finding a team to continue the development of new features is hard. There is a simple reason for that: the cost and time invested in the re-development of an unknown codebase are greater than programming from the ground up.

Who needs new features for Moof apps? They’re fine as-is.

Well.. honestly i would appreciate better filter on Model D, at least quality of the one used in Moogerfooger collection. Casue honestly resonance of Model D filter is shit.

That wasn’t gonna happen even before the acquisition.

Gavinski

@NeuM said:

@dendy said:

@NeuM said:
How are those "worker's rights" working out in China? I've been in the factories they don't want you to see where compliance is not followed and where kids are working in hazardous conditions. This stuff happens all over China because these people still have to eat somehow.

This. Also other part of reality is that if there wouldn't be those factories, those workers (includig kids) would be probably forced to live on street as homeless OR sell their bodies for food. China is extreme enviroment and sadly we can't apply rules of our western civilisation to them. No matter how much we don't like that.

Plus big companies like Apple are already providim much better conditions for workers even in China, than those.. less big.

Exactly. China is a country so vast that most outsiders simply have no clue what goes on there.

Well, it's very true that most foreigners have very little clue about the reality of life in China. I lived there for 14 years, so I know a hell of a lot more than most, and can speak better Chinese than many of the western 'experts' on China who, shamefully, despite decades working on the field, often can't even pronounce the names of major Chinese cities correctly. And yet, I would also not consider myself a China expert. I can talk a lot, from experience, about the particular city I lived in and about life in the city center and more affluent suburbs there, but that's it. China is a huge country with massive culture barriers to western understanding. And even the Chinese media can barely understand the obtuse policy texts the Chinese government publishes - those are basically designed to be obscure so the government has leeway to blame local administrators interpretations of policy, in the event that things later go wrong, lol

BroCoast

@dendy said:

@wim said:

@Luxthor said:
In that hypothetical situation, all of the main development teams leave the codebase behind. Finding someone to bug-fix and recompile is easy. Finding a team to continue the development of new features is hard. There is a simple reason for that: the cost and time invested in the re-development of an unknown codebase are greater than programming from the ground up.

Who needs new features for Moof apps? They’re fine as-is.

Well.. honestly i would appreciate better filter on Model D APP, at least quality of the one used in Moogerfooger collection. Casue honestly resonance of Model D app filter is shit.

Is it that bad? I have never really noticed.

NeuM

@Gavinski said:

@NeuM said:

@dendy said:

@NeuM said:
How are those "worker's rights" working out in China? I've been in the factories they don't want you to see where compliance is not followed and where kids are working in hazardous conditions. This stuff happens all over China because these people still have to eat somehow.

This. Also other part of reality is that if there wouldn't be those factories, those workers (includig kids) would be probably forced to live on street as homeless OR sell their bodies for food. China is extreme enviroment and sadly we can't apply rules of our western civilisation to them. No matter how much we don't like that.

Plus big companies like Apple are already providim much better conditions for workers even in China, than those.. less big.

Exactly. China is a country so vast that most outsiders simply have no clue what goes on there.

Well, it's very true that most foreigners have very little clue about the reality of life in China. I lived there for 14 years, so I know a hell of a lot more than most, and can speak better Chinese than many of the western 'experts' on China who, shamefully, despite decades working on the field, often can't even pronounce the names of major Chinese cities correctly. And yet, I would also not consider myself a China expert. I can talk a lot, from experience, about the particular city I lived in and about life in the city center and more affluent suburbs there, but that's it. China is a huge country with massive culture barriers to western understanding. And even the Chinese media can barely understand the obtuse policy texts the Chinese government publishes - those are basically designed to be obscure so the government has leeway to blame local administrators interpretations of policy, in the event that things later go wrong, lol

I'll never forget my time in China (especially since I nearly died there several times) and I hope to see more of it eventually. Would especially like to see the people change their government, but I'm not sure that's in the cards. There is a level of fatalistic acceptance of authoritarianism there I felt that I haven't seen in other countries. I got an impression of dissatisfaction of the government among those living in Shanghai though.

Luxthor

@Gavinski said:

@NeuM said:

@dendy said:

@NeuM said:
How are those "worker's rights" working out in China? I've been in the factories they don't want you to see where compliance is not followed and where kids are working in hazardous conditions. This stuff happens all over China because these people still have to eat somehow.

This. Also other part of reality is that if there wouldn't be those factories, those workers (includig kids) would be probably forced to live on street as homeless OR sell their bodies for food. China is extreme enviroment and sadly we can't apply rules of our western civilisation to them. No matter how much we don't like that.

Plus big companies like Apple are already providim much better conditions for workers even in China, than those.. less big.

Exactly. China is a country so vast that most outsiders simply have no clue what goes on there.

Well, it's very true that most foreigners have very little clue about the reality of life in China. I lived there for 14 years, so I know a hell of a lot more than most, and can speak better Chinese than many of the western 'experts' on China who, shamefully, despite decades working on the field, often can't even pronounce the names of major Chinese cities correctly. And yet, I would also not consider myself a China expert. I can talk a lot, from experience, about the particular city I lived in and about life in the city center and more affluent suburbs there, but that's it. China is a huge country with massive culture barriers to western understanding. And even the Chinese media can barely understand the obtuse policy texts the Chinese government publishes - those are basically designed to be obscure so the government has leeway to blame local administrators interpretations of policy, in the event that things later go wrong, lol

Also, one minuscule thing is that there are 56 ethnic groups with different languages and cultures all mixed up.

NeuM

@Luxthor said:

@Gavinski said:

@NeuM said:

@dendy said:

@NeuM said:
How are those "worker's rights" working out in China? I've been in the factories they don't want you to see where compliance is not followed and where kids are working in hazardous conditions. This stuff happens all over China because these people still have to eat somehow.

This. Also other part of reality is that if there wouldn't be those factories, those workers (includig kids) would be probably forced to live on street as homeless OR sell their bodies for food. China is extreme enviroment and sadly we can't apply rules of our western civilisation to them. No matter how much we don't like that.

Plus big companies like Apple are already providim much better conditions for workers even in China, than those.. less big.

Exactly. China is a country so vast that most outsiders simply have no clue what goes on there.

Well, it's very true that most foreigners have very little clue about the reality of life in China. I lived there for 14 years, so I know a hell of a lot more than most, and can speak better Chinese than many of the western 'experts' on China who, shamefully, despite decades working on the field, often can't even pronounce the names of major Chinese cities correctly. And yet, I would also not consider myself a China expert. I can talk a lot, from experience, about the particular city I lived in and about life in the city center and more affluent suburbs there, but that's it. China is a huge country with massive culture barriers to western understanding. And even the Chinese media can barely understand the obtuse policy texts the Chinese government publishes - those are basically designed to be obscure so the government has leeway to blame local administrators interpretations of policy, in the event that things later go wrong, lol

Also, one minuscule thing is that there are 56 ethnic groups with different languages and cultures all mixed up.

I learned just a few brief phrases in Shanghainese when I was there and you wouldn't believe the delighted looks on people's faces when I used these in our interactions. Shanghainese was highly discouraged from use by the Beijing government.

Gavinski

@Luxthor said:

@Gavinski said:

@NeuM said:

@dendy said:

@NeuM said:
How are those "worker's rights" working out in China? I've been in the factories they don't want you to see where compliance is not followed and where kids are working in hazardous conditions. This stuff happens all over China because these people still have to eat somehow.

This. Also other part of reality is that if there wouldn't be those factories, those workers (includig kids) would be probably forced to live on street as homeless OR sell their bodies for food. China is extreme enviroment and sadly we can't apply rules of our western civilisation to them. No matter how much we don't like that.

Plus big companies like Apple are already providim much better conditions for workers even in China, than those.. less big.

Exactly. China is a country so vast that most outsiders simply have no clue what goes on there.

Well, it's very true that most foreigners have very little clue about the reality of life in China. I lived there for 14 years, so I know a hell of a lot more than most, and can speak better Chinese than many of the western 'experts' on China who, shamefully, despite decades working on the field, often can't even pronounce the names of major Chinese cities correctly. And yet, I would also not consider myself a China expert. I can talk a lot, from experience, about the particular city I lived in and about life in the city center and more affluent suburbs there, but that's it. China is a huge country with massive culture barriers to western understanding. And even the Chinese media can barely understand the obtuse policy texts the Chinese government publishes - those are basically designed to be obscure so the government has leeway to blame local administrators interpretations of policy, in the event that things later go wrong, lol

Also, one minuscule thing is that there are 56 ethnic groups with different languages and cultures all mixed up.

That too, lol. But also, yeah, @NeuM I am definitely not a fan of the current regime, that’s for sure. And I noticed a real change of opinion from people I met and knew towards the end of my time there, an increaingly anti-Xi sentiment that was something you rarely heard from people a few years ago.

ervin

@dendy said:

@NeuM said:
How are those "worker's rights" working out in China? I've been in the factories they don't want you to see where compliance is not followed and where kids are working in hazardous conditions. This stuff happens all over China because these people still have to eat somehow.

This. Also other part of reality is that if there wouldn't be those factories, those workers (includig kids) would be probably forced to live on street as homeless OR sell their bodies for food. China is extreme enviroment and sadly we can't apply rules of our western civilisation to them. No matter how much we don't like that. It's not that i approve that. I don't like that very much. But i also understand, there are still much worse scenarios for those poor people.

Western hipsters woke activists tends to scream about rejecting products made in China because of this, thinking it helps to solve problem - but i am pretty sure most of those people would not thank them if they lost job because company decides do close operation in China because of protests/activists.

Plus big companies like Apple are already providim much better conditions for workers even in China, than those.. less big.

If the two arguments are:

1 ("hipster"): I'm not buying a product if it is demonstrably made by children or political prisoners or people without rights (= a fact)

VS

2 (dendy [not a hipster]): that's silly because I think they would be even worse off if we didn't buy the stuff (= a conjecture)

Well, your argument doesn't come across as the stronger one 🤷🙂

BTW, I agree an individual purchasing decision won't sway China. But that doesn't mean we cannot follow our own principles, like not buying stuff made with forced labour or not condoning bribing African decision makers to get business in their country etc.

ErrkaPetti

@NeuM said:

@AlmostAnonymous said:

@HotStrange said:

@NeuM said:

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
On the bright side, there is no longer any reason to feel guilty about buying Behringer's Moog knockoffs!

LOL. I suppose so. They may end up using the exact same suppliers.

Doesn’t Music Tribe already make a lot of the circuits that other companies use or am I misremembering?

They own coolaudio, which basically makes all those audio chips, vco chips, etc…
Honestly buying that company up was uli’s smartest move business wise

To clarify, Behringer owns the IP of the company they acquired, manufacturing is done by companies owned by China-based companies (and nearly all companies of this type are partly or completely owned by the Chinese government, or have investments in them from their government).

This is similar to Apple's connection to China-based manufacturing and assembly work. Apple doesn't own the facilities or directly employ the workers in the factories. The majority of that is controlled by Foxconn, a Taiwan-based company with longstanding agreements with China.

Apple built products in both Brazil as India - and, the plan forward is more plants in several other countries around the world (Apple doesn’t trust the awful regime in China)…

Gavinski

@ervin said:

@dendy said:

@NeuM said:
How are those "worker's rights" working out in China? I've been in the factories they don't want you to see where compliance is not followed and where kids are working in hazardous conditions. This stuff happens all over China because these people still have to eat somehow.

This. Also other part of reality is that if there wouldn't be those factories, those workers (includig kids) would be probably forced to live on street as homeless OR sell their bodies for food. China is extreme enviroment and sadly we can't apply rules of our western civilisation to them. No matter how much we don't like that. It's not that i approve that. I don't like that very much. But i also understand, there are still much worse scenarios for those poor people.

Western hipsters woke activists tends to scream about rejecting products made in China because of this, thinking it helps to solve problem - but i am pretty sure most of those people would not thank them if they lost job because company decides do close operation in China because of protests/activists.

Plus big companies like Apple are already providim much better conditions for workers even in China, than those.. less big.

If the two arguments are:

1 ("hipster"): I'm not buying a product if it is demonstrably made by children or political prisoners or people without rights (= a fact)

VS

2 (dendy [not a hipster]): that's silly because I think they would be even worse off if we didn't buy the stuff (= a conjecture)

Well, your argument doesn't come across as the stronger one 🤷🙂

BTW, I agree an individual purchasing decision won't sway China. But that doesn't mean we cannot follow our own principles, like not buying stuff made with forced labour or not condoning bribing African decision makers to get business in their country etc.

I’ll add to this that anyone who uses the word ’woke’ carelessly as a blanket perjorative generally comes across very badly to me, as someone who has drunk the wrong koolaid, someone who thinks they took the pill that has freed them from delusion but is actually often more deluded than the average person. This word needs to be restored to its more original meaning from the taint put on it by right-wing thinkers with their own often sinister agendas. This is not to say that there aren’t some people who might identify as ‘woke’ that don’t behave badly. But I’m definitely more concerned about the people who identify as anti-woke.

michael_m

This thread has been well and truly derailed now. Maybe we should go back to the original discussion or just close it?

I much prefer that we avoid this sort of going round in circles that occurs whenever anyone interjects politics. It was nice when @Michael got rid of this sort of crap. There are plenty of other places on the internet to do this.

knewspeak

@michael_m said:
This thread has been well and truly derailed now. Maybe we should go back to the original discussion or just close it?

I much prefer that we avoid this sort of going round in circles that occurs whenever anyone interjects politics. It was nice when @Michael got rid of this sort of crap. There are plenty of other places on the internet to do this.

It’s called western exceptionalism and it’s system is wobbling…and so you hear the call to arms.