3 months and NO Logic Pro 4 iPad update?!?

mjm1138

@espiegel123 said:
Public roadmaps only work if you have a concrete long-term plan. Apple’s relationship to pro audio has always been somewhat whimsical…very much changing from year to year.

I think it is quite likely that Apple is putting something out there and watching the response and will adjust the roadmap and plan based on the particular market they are trying to reach/grow.

A public roadmap when you are trying to be agile is a mistake as it can lock you into a bad early guess about the way forward.

This is true. Maybe a community engagement approach would be better, but I suppose that's hard to do in a satisfying way if you keep the roadmap too close to the vest. It'd be great if there were Apple engineers on this forum taking feedback from the community, but it'd be frustrating if they had to say "yeah we can't tell you if we're working on that" to every question.

tahiche

You don't spend the resources needed for such a big project to abandon it on version 1.0. No worries in that department.
But this is no excuse:

@mjm1138 said:
Apple may be huge, but we shouldn't assume the team building Logic is any bigger than the team building Zenbeats for Roland, or Cubase/Cubasis for Steinberg, or Live/Note for Ableton, etc.

• Zenbeats isn’t charging me 5€ a month. LP4i is already and by far the most expensive DAW on iOS,
• It’s Apple who decided to label this “pro”, knowing there’s a very definite and exact comparison with the same product on desktop. So they know exactly what’s missing and what the expectations are.

Logic for iPad is great, but it needs some major work and improvements.
I was reluctant about LP4i (this acronym…🤦🏻) because of how it might disrupt the iOS music ecosystem and the other smaller devs. I was a hardcore Zenbeats advocate, but grew frustrated at how slow the new and needed features were implemented. So my opinion switched to : Other daws had the time to do it, but didn’t allocate the resources. None of them reach the level of features “old” Auria provided. So if it takes Apple to do it, be it.

Luxthor

@mjm1138 said:

@Luxthor said:

@mjm1138 said:
I think it's wayyyy to early to start talking about Apple "abandoning" Logic Pro for iPad. But I've long suspected that some of the most glaring issues with LP4i (Alchemy, Sampler, and other built-in plugin UIs) have a solution that goes beyond the bounds of just the Logic Pro software (I suspect they are using a UI framework based on UIKit that is not yet mature). So what might seem like a relatively simple problem (make the UI in Sculpture less ungainly) might not be possible until other teams deliver improvements to that framework. This is all, of course, pure speculation on my part.

The good news in that scenario is that as that framework matures we will hopefully see improvements across all of the plugin UIs come quickly. Maybe such improvements will ship with iPadOS 17.1 but really if I had to guess, I'd guess WWDC '24, and they'll do a wide release of the more-mature framework for public use. If that's the case, then we're actually waiting for improvements to the Swift programming language itself vs. iPadOS. Again, this is pure speculation based on absolutely no insider knowledge.

SwiftUI / UIKit will never be optimized for such a specific and niche task. They already have Alchemy's own framework (Sampler, Step FX, Phat FX, etc.). Even though this is too old for touch surfaces. They are probably redesigning the whole thing. The first results of the adapted framework we can see from Sample Alchemy and Beat Breaker.

I swear I saw on the WWDC '23 agenda that there was a session about SwiftUI and Apple's "pro apps", which I presume to be Logic and Final Cut, but I can't find the session on the website. Maybe the session was cut. Maybe I dreamed it 🤔. Again, I have no direct knowledge, but clearly they discarded whatever UI frameworks their legacy plugins used when they brought Logic to iPad, so I assume they're building Logic and Final Cut for iPad in SwiftUI since they're pitching it as the future of interface design. Anyway I wouldn't expect SwiftUI to be optimized for this use case specifically, but it seems like there's room for improvement with scaling of interface elements and cascading layout that would be of benefit to to all categories of software. That's at least my perception from looking at e.g. the UI for Sculpture or ES2.

No worries, nobody knows what Apple has on their mind, we just hope while shooting in the dark!

BTW, Sample Alchemy and Beat Breaker look cool enough. If they translate this to the Alchemy, Sculpture and others, I’ll be more than happy!

Dham

@mjm1138 said:
I think it's wayyyy to early to start talking about Apple "abandoning" Logic Pro for iPad. But I've long suspected that some of the most glaring issues with LP4i (Alchemy, Sampler, and other built-in plugin UIs) have a solution that goes beyond the bounds of just the Logic Pro software (I suspect they are using a UI framework based on UIKit that is not yet mature). So what might seem like a relatively simple problem (make the UI in Sculpture less ungainly) might not be possible until other teams deliver improvements to that framework. This is all, of course, pure speculation on my part.

The good news in that scenario is that as that framework matures we will hopefully see improvements across all of the plugin UIs come quickly. Maybe such improvements will ship with iPadOS 17.1 but really if I had to guess, I'd guess WWDC '24, and they'll do a wide release of the more-mature framework for public use. If that's the case, then we're actually waiting for improvements to the Swift programming language itself vs. iPadOS. Again, this is pure speculation based on absolutely no insider knowledge.

Other missing features will hopefully show up sooner, like sane ways of instantiating sub-channels for multi-output plugins, and better compatibility between AUv3 plugins on iPad and AU plugins on Mac. And, hopefully, the loop library and patch libraries will get filled out sooner than later. Some features may not ever make it to iPad, but again, I wouldn't take that as a sign that Apple has abandoned Logic for iPad or that they don't care about the product. I think Apple sees differentiated use cases for Logic on iPad vs. Logic for Mac, and probably expects that most LP4i users will have both (I know that's not a safe assumption in this space, but I have a sneaking suspicion that if we saw a real breakdown of who is using LP4i, members of this forum might be less represented than they think).

The other thing to keep in mind, per other comments on this thread, is that to say "Apple cares" is not to say that Tim Cook spends even a minute thinking about Logic in an average month. He probably doesn't. From a revenue perspective this software is a tiny drop in a very big bucket, same as for Logic on desktop. I think it's probably true that there's a small but dedicated team at Apple that are putting everything they have into this product, and they care very deeply. But we shouldn't assume that they have the full force of Apple's resources behind them. I work for a large company that makes billions in revenue and has thousands of employees. But some of our products are developed and maintained by surprisingly small teams, acting more like a startup or small software shop within the context of the larger company. It is the way of the world.

I know that doesn't sound like good news to folks in this crowd, who are understandably impatient to see LP4i reach the level of polish we're accustomed to expecting. For my part Logic is "good enough" that it has become my favorite/main workflow (with occasional diversions into AUM for quick experiments). I definitely look forward to seeing improvements, but I'll keep using it until then, and keep my expectations in check for the rate of development. Apple may be huge, but we shouldn't assume the team building Logic is any bigger than the team building Zenbeats for Roland, or Cubase/Cubasis for Steinberg, or Live/Note for Ableton, etc.

If we're still waiting for version 1.1 two years from now, sure, it will be time to talk about whether Apple has abandoned Logic.

I agree with much of what you wrote. However, I'm not so sure about the GUI blandness being a result of Apple waiting on UIKit enhancements. Apple seems to be migrating to SwiftUI: https://blog.scottlogic.com/2019/12/11/Exploring-SwiftUI-1.html

But in any case, 3rd party plugin developers are pumping out some pretty nice GUIs on their recent plugins such as Audiothing and Hainbach's Lines. The GUI is a big part of a plug-in's attraction for me and also adds a fun element.

mjm1138

@tahiche said:
You don't spend the resources needed for such a big project to abandon it on version 1.0. No worries in that department.
But this is no excuse:

@mjm1138 said:
Apple may be huge, but we shouldn't assume the team building Logic is any bigger than the team building Zenbeats for Roland, or Cubase/Cubasis for Steinberg, or Live/Note for Ableton, etc.

• Zenbeats isn’t charging me 5€ a month. LP4i is already and by far the most expensive DAW on iOS,
• It’s Apple who decided to label this “pro”, knowing there’s a very definite and exact comparison with the same product on desktop. So they know exactly what’s missing and what the expectations are.

Logic for iPad is great, but it needs some major work and improvements.
I was reluctant about LP4i (this acronym…🤦🏻) because of how it might disrupt the iOS music ecosystem and the other smaller devs. I was a hardcore Zenbeats advocate, but grew frustrated at how slow the new and needed features were implemented. So my opinion switched to : Other daws had the time to do it, but didn’t allocate the resources. None of them reach the level of features “old” Auria provided. So if it takes Apple to do it, be it.

To be really clear, I'm not trying to make excuses. And if you object to Logic's pricing model or price, yeah, I think there's room to object on both of those counts.

But I'll say this. Logic is a huge, extremely complex bit of software, and it appears as though it had to be thoroughly refactored to port it to iPad. There's a ton of work left to be done. But it strikes me as the sort of project where you can't just throw engineers at it and hope for faster output, exactly because it is so complex. Like, it probably takes months to onboard to the engineering team and reach the point where you can make a positive contribution, and a lot of the problems they have to solve will move faster with a small team working closely together rather than a large team trying to design by committee.

Maybe they can throw bodies at the problems of plugin design and the loop/patch libraries since they kind of operate at the edges, but I'd bet you hit a point of diminishing returns rather quickly when adding engineers to the core product team.

mjm1138

@Dham said:

@mjm1138 said:
I think it's wayyyy to early to start talking about Apple "abandoning" Logic Pro for iPad. But I've long suspected that some of the most glaring issues with LP4i (Alchemy, Sampler, and other built-in plugin UIs) have a solution that goes beyond the bounds of just the Logic Pro software (I suspect they are using a UI framework based on UIKit that is not yet mature). So what might seem like a relatively simple problem (make the UI in Sculpture less ungainly) might not be possible until other teams deliver improvements to that framework. This is all, of course, pure speculation on my part.

The good news in that scenario is that as that framework matures we will hopefully see improvements across all of the plugin UIs come quickly. Maybe such improvements will ship with iPadOS 17.1 but really if I had to guess, I'd guess WWDC '24, and they'll do a wide release of the more-mature framework for public use. If that's the case, then we're actually waiting for improvements to the Swift programming language itself vs. iPadOS. Again, this is pure speculation based on absolutely no insider knowledge.

Other missing features will hopefully show up sooner, like sane ways of instantiating sub-channels for multi-output plugins, and better compatibility between AUv3 plugins on iPad and AU plugins on Mac. And, hopefully, the loop library and patch libraries will get filled out sooner than later. Some features may not ever make it to iPad, but again, I wouldn't take that as a sign that Apple has abandoned Logic for iPad or that they don't care about the product. I think Apple sees differentiated use cases for Logic on iPad vs. Logic for Mac, and probably expects that most LP4i users will have both (I know that's not a safe assumption in this space, but I have a sneaking suspicion that if we saw a real breakdown of who is using LP4i, members of this forum might be less represented than they think).

The other thing to keep in mind, per other comments on this thread, is that to say "Apple cares" is not to say that Tim Cook spends even a minute thinking about Logic in an average month. He probably doesn't. From a revenue perspective this software is a tiny drop in a very big bucket, same as for Logic on desktop. I think it's probably true that there's a small but dedicated team at Apple that are putting everything they have into this product, and they care very deeply. But we shouldn't assume that they have the full force of Apple's resources behind them. I work for a large company that makes billions in revenue and has thousands of employees. But some of our products are developed and maintained by surprisingly small teams, acting more like a startup or small software shop within the context of the larger company. It is the way of the world.

I know that doesn't sound like good news to folks in this crowd, who are understandably impatient to see LP4i reach the level of polish we're accustomed to expecting. For my part Logic is "good enough" that it has become my favorite/main workflow (with occasional diversions into AUM for quick experiments). I definitely look forward to seeing improvements, but I'll keep using it until then, and keep my expectations in check for the rate of development. Apple may be huge, but we shouldn't assume the team building Logic is any bigger than the team building Zenbeats for Roland, or Cubase/Cubasis for Steinberg, or Live/Note for Ableton, etc.

If we're still waiting for version 1.1 two years from now, sure, it will be time to talk about whether Apple has abandoned Logic.

I agree with much of what you wrote. However, I'm not so sure about the GUI blandness being a result of Apple waiting on UIKit enhancements. Apple seems to be migrating to SwiftUI: https://blog.scottlogic.com/2019/12/11/Exploring-SwiftUI-1.html

But in any case, 3rd party plugin developers are pumping out some pretty nice GUIs on their recent plugins such as Audiothing and Hainbach's Lines. The GUI is a big part of a plug-in's attraction for me and also adds a fun element.

Whoops, yes, I misspoke 😳. Where I say "UIKit" I really mean "SwiftUI".

NeuM

@mjm1138 said:

@Luxthor said:

@mjm1138 said:
I think it's wayyyy to early to start talking about Apple "abandoning" Logic Pro for iPad. But I've long suspected that some of the most glaring issues with LP4i (Alchemy, Sampler, and other built-in plugin UIs) have a solution that goes beyond the bounds of just the Logic Pro software (I suspect they are using a UI framework based on UIKit that is not yet mature). So what might seem like a relatively simple problem (make the UI in Sculpture less ungainly) might not be possible until other teams deliver improvements to that framework. This is all, of course, pure speculation on my part.

The good news in that scenario is that as that framework matures we will hopefully see improvements across all of the plugin UIs come quickly. Maybe such improvements will ship with iPadOS 17.1 but really if I had to guess, I'd guess WWDC '24, and they'll do a wide release of the more-mature framework for public use. If that's the case, then we're actually waiting for improvements to the Swift programming language itself vs. iPadOS. Again, this is pure speculation based on absolutely no insider knowledge.

SwiftUI / UIKit will never be optimized for such a specific and niche task. They already have Alchemy's own framework (Sampler, Step FX, Phat FX, etc.). Even though this is too old for touch surfaces. They are probably redesigning the whole thing. The first results of the adapted framework we can see from Sample Alchemy and Beat Breaker.

I swear I saw on the WWDC '23 agenda that there was a session about SwiftUI and Apple's "pro apps", which I presume to be Logic and Final Cut, but I can't find the session on the website. Maybe the session was cut. Maybe I dreamed it 🤔. Again, I have no direct knowledge, but clearly they discarded whatever UI frameworks their legacy plugins used when they brought Logic to iPad, so I assume they're building Logic and Final Cut for iPad in SwiftUI since they're pitching it as the future of interface design. Anyway I wouldn't expect SwiftUI to be optimized for this use case specifically, but it seems like there's room for improvement with scaling of interface elements and cascading layout that would be of benefit to to all categories of software. That's at least my perception from looking at e.g. the UI for Sculpture or ES2.

I'm not seeing anything on the WWDC23 site that specifically addresses Apple's pro software.

https://developer.apple.com/wwdc23/topics/swiftui-ui-frameworks/

mjm1138

@Luxthor said:

No worries, nobody knows what Apple has on their mind, we just hope while shooting in the dark!

BTW, Sample Alchemy and Beat Breaker look cool enough. If they translate this to the Alchemy, Sculpture and others, I’ll be more than happy!

Good point, it's very possible that they have the frameworks they need, and "plugin UIs" are just way down in the backlog. It's a shame because a lot of the legacy plugins sound good, but are probably not going to get uptake by new users of Logic on iPad because the interfaces are such a mess. Like, just about literally every AUv3 in the App Store has a better UI than Sculpture, and there are some questionable UIs out there

tahiche

@mjm1138 said:

@tahiche said:
You don't spend the resources needed for such a big project to abandon it on version 1.0. No worries in that department.
But this is no excuse:

@mjm1138 said:
Apple may be huge, but we shouldn't assume the team building Logic is any bigger than the team building Zenbeats for Roland, or Cubase/Cubasis for Steinberg, or Live/Note for Ableton, etc.

• Zenbeats isn’t charging me 5€ a month. LP4i is already and by far the most expensive DAW on iOS,
• It’s Apple who decided to label this “pro”, knowing there’s a very definite and exact comparison with the same product on desktop. So they know exactly what’s missing and what the expectations are.

Logic for iPad is great, but it needs some major work and improvements.
I was reluctant about LP4i (this acronym…🤦🏻) because of how it might disrupt the iOS music ecosystem and the other smaller devs. I was a hardcore Zenbeats advocate, but grew frustrated at how slow the new and needed features were implemented. So my opinion switched to : Other daws had the time to do it, but didn’t allocate the resources. None of them reach the level of features “old” Auria provided. So if it takes Apple to do it, be it.

To be really clear, I'm not trying to make excuses. And if you object to Logic's pricing model or price, yeah, I think there's room to object on both of those counts.

I’m not objecting, I think it’s a fair price.

.. it strikes me as the sort of project where you can't just throw engineers at it and hope for faster output, exactly because it is so complex.

I mentioned the price because you pointed out that they had the same number of developers working on Logic as Cubasis, Zenbeats… If I’m paying a recurring fee and a much higher price overall, it’s only logical to expect more frequent updates.

mjm1138

@NeuM said:

I'm not seeing anything on the WWDC23 site that specifically addresses Apple's pro software.

https://developer.apple.com/wwdc23/topics/swiftui-ui-frameworks/

Yeah maybe it was a fever dream. I swear I saw (at the start of the event) a session called "building Apple's Pro Apps with SwiftUI" or some such, but I can't find a trace of it now. I still say it's a fair assumption that Logic and Final Cut are built with SwiftUI, since they hit the market well after Apple started making big noise that SwiftUI is the future. The framework was introduced in 2019. It makes sense to me that Logic and Final Cut became ready for the world after improvements came later on (I'm thinking of the introduction of the "grid container" view in 2022, which I suspect might be the basis of a lot of the plugin UIs). But as of 2022 there were still folks saying that SwiftUI is not ready for "production", thus my speculation that the Logic team might be bumping up against some of the limitations of the framework. Again, as always, I don't actually know s**t about nuthin', I'm just speculating

mjm1138

@tahiche said:
I mentioned the price because you pointed out that they had the same number of developers working on Logic as Cubasis, Zenbeats… If I’m paying a recurring fee and a much higher price overall, it’s only logical to expect more frequent updates.

That's a fair viewpoint.

Dham

@mjm1138 said:

@NeuM said:

I'm not seeing anything on the WWDC23 site that specifically addresses Apple's pro software.

https://developer.apple.com/wwdc23/topics/swiftui-ui-frameworks/

Yeah maybe it was a fever dream. I swear I saw (at the start of the event) a session called "building Apple's Pro Apps with SwiftUI" or some such, but I can't find a trace of it now. I still say it's a fair assumption that Logic and Final Cut are built with SwiftUI, since they hit the market well after Apple started making big noise that SwiftUI is the future. The framework was introduced in 2019. It makes sense to me that Logic and Final Cut became ready for the world after improvements came later on (I'm thinking of the introduction of the "grid container" view in 2022, which I suspect might be the basis of a lot of the plugin UIs). But as of 2022 there were still folks saying that SwiftUI is not ready for "production", thus my speculation that the Logic team might be bumping up against some of the limitations of the framework. Again, as always, I don't actually know s**t about nuthin', I'm just speculating

Apple should simply communicate with subscribers (and potential subscribers) about the road plan for Logic. They don't have to go into great detail. Just a simple "Thanks for subscribing, we're hard at work on the Logic Family. Expect to see some exciting updates in the next few weeks". That would be much more reassuring than the months of silence following the initial build up and release followed by a sample pack release then an extremely minor update. When it comes to Customer Communication/Appreciation Apple pretty much sucks lately.

As good as LP4i is for a 1st gen app. I'm beginning to realize that Cubasis 3 is very close in terms of overall features and has the added advantages of running on both Ipads and iphones, has Mackie/HUI support (which works great with my Korg Nanokontrol Studio:), mature internal plug-in GUIs and also supports my classic IAA instruments such as The Mighty Thor! Cubasis also has a very helpful, informative representative on this forum. Can't wait to see what exciting updates Cubasis 4 brings:)

NeuM

@Dham said:

@mjm1138 said:

@NeuM said:

I'm not seeing anything on the WWDC23 site that specifically addresses Apple's pro software.

https://developer.apple.com/wwdc23/topics/swiftui-ui-frameworks/

Yeah maybe it was a fever dream. I swear I saw (at the start of the event) a session called "building Apple's Pro Apps with SwiftUI" or some such, but I can't find a trace of it now. I still say it's a fair assumption that Logic and Final Cut are built with SwiftUI, since they hit the market well after Apple started making big noise that SwiftUI is the future. The framework was introduced in 2019. It makes sense to me that Logic and Final Cut became ready for the world after improvements came later on (I'm thinking of the introduction of the "grid container" view in 2022, which I suspect might be the basis of a lot of the plugin UIs). But as of 2022 there were still folks saying that SwiftUI is not ready for "production", thus my speculation that the Logic team might be bumping up against some of the limitations of the framework. Again, as always, I don't actually know s**t about nuthin', I'm just speculating

Apple should simply communicate with subscribers (and potential subscribers) about the road plan for Logic. They don't have to go into great detail. Just a simple "Thanks for subscribing, we're hard at work on the Logic Family. Expect to see some exciting updates in the next few weeks". That would be much more reassuring than the months of silence following the initial build up and release followed by a sample pack release then an extremely minor update. When it comes to Customer Communication/Appreciation Apple pretty much sucks lately.

As good as LP4i is for a 1st gen app. I'm beginning to realize that Cubasis 3 is very close in terms of overall features and has the added advantages of running on both Ipads and iphones, has Mackie/HUI support (which works great with my Korg Nanokontrol Studio:), mature internal plug-in GUIs and also supports my classic IAA instruments such as The Mighty Thor! Cubasis also has a very helpful, informative representative on this forum. Can't wait to see what exciting updates Cubasis 4 brings:)

That's simply not how Apple does things. They don't preannounce products and they very rarely preannounce software. They won't do this.

HotStrange

@espiegel123 said:
Public roadmaps only work if you have a concrete long-term plan. Apple’s relationship to pro audio has always been somewhat whimsical…very much changing from year to year.

I think it is quite likely that Apple is putting something out there and watching the response and will adjust the roadmap and plan based on the particular market they are trying to reach/grow.

A public roadmap when you are trying to be agile is a mistake as it can lock you into a bad early guess about the way forward.

That can be true also, but with a lot of people curious about the future of the app, it wouldn’t hurt for Apple to at least give some kind of indication that they’re listening and have plans for it. Even a couple producers outside of this forum I know personally are wondering.

Dham

@NeuM said:

@Dham said:

@mjm1138 said:

@NeuM said:

I'm not seeing anything on the WWDC23 site that specifically addresses Apple's pro software.

https://developer.apple.com/wwdc23/topics/swiftui-ui-frameworks/

Yeah maybe it was a fever dream. I swear I saw (at the start of the event) a session called "building Apple's Pro Apps with SwiftUI" or some such, but I can't find a trace of it now. I still say it's a fair assumption that Logic and Final Cut are built with SwiftUI, since they hit the market well after Apple started making big noise that SwiftUI is the future. The framework was introduced in 2019. It makes sense to me that Logic and Final Cut became ready for the world after improvements came later on (I'm thinking of the introduction of the "grid container" view in 2022, which I suspect might be the basis of a lot of the plugin UIs). But as of 2022 there were still folks saying that SwiftUI is not ready for "production", thus my speculation that the Logic team might be bumping up against some of the limitations of the framework. Again, as always, I don't actually know s**t about nuthin', I'm just speculating

Apple should simply communicate with subscribers (and potential subscribers) about the road plan for Logic. They don't have to go into great detail. Just a simple "Thanks for subscribing, we're hard at work on the Logic Family. Expect to see some exciting updates in the next few weeks". That would be much more reassuring than the months of silence following the initial build up and release followed by a sample pack release then an extremely minor update. When it comes to Customer Communication/Appreciation Apple pretty much sucks lately.

As good as LP4i is for a 1st gen app. I'm beginning to realize that Cubasis 3 is very close in terms of overall features and has the added advantages of running on both Ipads and iphones, has Mackie/HUI support (which works great with my Korg Nanokontrol Studio:), mature internal plug-in GUIs and also supports my classic IAA instruments such as The Mighty Thor! Cubasis also has a very helpful, informative representative on this forum. Can't wait to see what exciting updates Cubasis 4 brings:)

That's simply not how Apple does things. They don't preannounce products and they very rarely preannounce software. They won't do this.

I'm not really concerned with them preannouncing (new) products. I would simply like them to communicate with their customers a bit more regarding their existing products. They don't have to give away any proprietary information or trade secrets just a simple acknowledgement that the product and their customers are important. They actually did that when Steve was running the company.

HotStrange

@Dham said:

@NeuM said:

@Dham said:

@mjm1138 said:

@NeuM said:

I'm not seeing anything on the WWDC23 site that specifically addresses Apple's pro software.

https://developer.apple.com/wwdc23/topics/swiftui-ui-frameworks/

Yeah maybe it was a fever dream. I swear I saw (at the start of the event) a session called "building Apple's Pro Apps with SwiftUI" or some such, but I can't find a trace of it now. I still say it's a fair assumption that Logic and Final Cut are built with SwiftUI, since they hit the market well after Apple started making big noise that SwiftUI is the future. The framework was introduced in 2019. It makes sense to me that Logic and Final Cut became ready for the world after improvements came later on (I'm thinking of the introduction of the "grid container" view in 2022, which I suspect might be the basis of a lot of the plugin UIs). But as of 2022 there were still folks saying that SwiftUI is not ready for "production", thus my speculation that the Logic team might be bumping up against some of the limitations of the framework. Again, as always, I don't actually know s**t about nuthin', I'm just speculating

Apple should simply communicate with subscribers (and potential subscribers) about the road plan for Logic. They don't have to go into great detail. Just a simple "Thanks for subscribing, we're hard at work on the Logic Family. Expect to see some exciting updates in the next few weeks". That would be much more reassuring than the months of silence following the initial build up and release followed by a sample pack release then an extremely minor update. When it comes to Customer Communication/Appreciation Apple pretty much sucks lately.

As good as LP4i is for a 1st gen app. I'm beginning to realize that Cubasis 3 is very close in terms of overall features and has the added advantages of running on both Ipads and iphones, has Mackie/HUI support (which works great with my Korg Nanokontrol Studio:), mature internal plug-in GUIs and also supports my classic IAA instruments such as The Mighty Thor! Cubasis also has a very helpful, informative representative on this forum. Can't wait to see what exciting updates Cubasis 4 brings:)

That's simply not how Apple does things. They don't preannounce products and they very rarely preannounce software. They won't do this.

I'm not really concerned with them preannouncing (new) products. I would simply like them to communicate with their customers a bit more regarding their existing products. They don't have to give away any proprietary information or trade secrets just a simple acknowledgement that the product and their customers are important. They actually did that when Steve was running the company.

Exactly my point. If they don’t wanna reveal their hand they could at least give us a little something to make everyone feel more comfortable and like they have some kind of plans for it.

NeuM

@Dham said:

@NeuM said:

@Dham said:

@mjm1138 said:

@NeuM said:

I'm not seeing anything on the WWDC23 site that specifically addresses Apple's pro software.

https://developer.apple.com/wwdc23/topics/swiftui-ui-frameworks/

Yeah maybe it was a fever dream. I swear I saw (at the start of the event) a session called "building Apple's Pro Apps with SwiftUI" or some such, but I can't find a trace of it now. I still say it's a fair assumption that Logic and Final Cut are built with SwiftUI, since they hit the market well after Apple started making big noise that SwiftUI is the future. The framework was introduced in 2019. It makes sense to me that Logic and Final Cut became ready for the world after improvements came later on (I'm thinking of the introduction of the "grid container" view in 2022, which I suspect might be the basis of a lot of the plugin UIs). But as of 2022 there were still folks saying that SwiftUI is not ready for "production", thus my speculation that the Logic team might be bumping up against some of the limitations of the framework. Again, as always, I don't actually know s**t about nuthin', I'm just speculating

Apple should simply communicate with subscribers (and potential subscribers) about the road plan for Logic. They don't have to go into great detail. Just a simple "Thanks for subscribing, we're hard at work on the Logic Family. Expect to see some exciting updates in the next few weeks". That would be much more reassuring than the months of silence following the initial build up and release followed by a sample pack release then an extremely minor update. When it comes to Customer Communication/Appreciation Apple pretty much sucks lately.

As good as LP4i is for a 1st gen app. I'm beginning to realize that Cubasis 3 is very close in terms of overall features and has the added advantages of running on both Ipads and iphones, has Mackie/HUI support (which works great with my Korg Nanokontrol Studio:), mature internal plug-in GUIs and also supports my classic IAA instruments such as The Mighty Thor! Cubasis also has a very helpful, informative representative on this forum. Can't wait to see what exciting updates Cubasis 4 brings:)

That's simply not how Apple does things. They don't preannounce products and they very rarely preannounce software. They won't do this.

I'm not really concerned with them preannouncing (new) products. I would simply like them to communicate with their customers a bit more regarding their existing products. They don't have to give away any proprietary information or trade secrets just a simple acknowledgement that the product and their customers are important. They actually did that when Steve was running the company.

Steve was complicated. He often didn't care what customers thought as long as they kept recognizing him and his baby (Apple) for their genius. And didn't suffer critics lightly. I recall one story of a reporter who made a criticism of an Apple product and Steve called him up for days and days ripping the guy's comments apart over the phone.

There used to be a web site dedicated to Steve Jobs and Apple stories by people who worked there, but I cannot seem to find it now.

mjm1138

Steve Jobs, more than anyone, is the person who built the culture of secrecy and silence at Apple. Pre-Jobs Apple used to step on themselves all the time by pre-announcing products and failing to deliver (Copeland, anyone?). And the Apple of today leaks like a sieve. I think about when Apple announced the headset, and people already knew like 80% of the details, including many of the design details, before Apple said a word publicly. Heads would have rolled if that happened under Jobs. He was also a master of looking market segments right in the eye, saying "we're not serving you with product x anymore", and ruthlessly cutting products that customers (and third party ecosystem partners) used, loved, and relied on. OpenDoc folks felt completely burned by Jobs when he took over and killed the project dead.

HotStrange

@mjm1138 said:
Steve Jobs, more than anyone, is the person who built the culture of secrecy and silence at Apple. Pre-Jobs Apple used to step on themselves all the time by pre-announcing products and failing to deliver (Copeland, anyone?). And the Apple of today leaks like a sieve. I think about when Apple announced the headset, and people already knew like 80% of the details, including many of the design details, before Apple said a word publicly. Heads would have rolled if that happened under Jobs. He was also a master of looking market segments right in the eye, saying "we're not serving you with product x anymore", and ruthlessly cutting products that customers (and third party ecosystem partners) used, loved, and relied on. OpenDoc folks felt completely burned by Jobs when he took over and killed the project dead.

Yeah Jobs has a pretty storied and complicated time with Apple. Not everything was bad but I think people tend to look back with rose colored glasses at times.

mjm1138

@HotStrange said:

@mjm1138 said:
Steve Jobs, more than anyone, is the person who built the culture of secrecy and silence at Apple. Pre-Jobs Apple used to step on themselves all the time by pre-announcing products and failing to deliver (Copeland, anyone?). And the Apple of today leaks like a sieve. I think about when Apple announced the headset, and people already knew like 80% of the details, including many of the design details, before Apple said a word publicly. Heads would have rolled if that happened under Jobs. He was also a master of looking market segments right in the eye, saying "we're not serving you with product x anymore", and ruthlessly cutting products that customers (and third party ecosystem partners) used, loved, and relied on. OpenDoc folks felt completely burned by Jobs when he took over and killed the project dead.

Yeah Jobs has a pretty storied and complicated time with Apple. Not everything was bad but I think people tend to look back with rose colored glasses at times.

I mean, the guy was a genius as an executive and he saved the company. Those are just facts. But yeah, the reality of the Jobs era is considerably more "nuanced" than many of us remember now, a decade after his untimely departure (I'll include myself there).

ErrkaPetti

@mjm1138 said:

@HotStrange said:

@mjm1138 said:
Steve Jobs, more than anyone, is the person who built the culture of secrecy and silence at Apple. Pre-Jobs Apple used to step on themselves all the time by pre-announcing products and failing to deliver (Copeland, anyone?). And the Apple of today leaks like a sieve. I think about when Apple announced the headset, and people already knew like 80% of the details, including many of the design details, before Apple said a word publicly. Heads would have rolled if that happened under Jobs. He was also a master of looking market segments right in the eye, saying "we're not serving you with product x anymore", and ruthlessly cutting products that customers (and third party ecosystem partners) used, loved, and relied on. OpenDoc folks felt completely burned by Jobs when he took over and killed the project dead.

Yeah Jobs has a pretty storied and complicated time with Apple. Not everything was bad but I think people tend to look back with rose colored glasses at times.

I mean, the guy was a genius as an executive and he saved the company. Those are just facts. But yeah, the reality of the Jobs era is considerably more "nuanced" than many of us remember now, a decade after his untimely departure (I'll include myself there).

Steve Jobs wasn’t just an era, Apples DNA is 100% Steve Jobs…

fisherro

I’ve wished Apple would be more open about their plans for decades. What…nearly four of them now? (And I’m bothered by the fact that fans have bullied Mojang into being more secretive. And that Behringer gets such vitriol and misunderstanding thrown at it for being as open as they are.)

But I’ve also seen my feedback (along with the feedback of many other) eventually show up in what they’re shipping.

In the case of Logic for iPad, though, it is simple. Don’t subscribe or cancel if the product isn’t useful to you right now. Check it out again when you do hear about an update.

For me, it’s been well worth the price in its current state, so I’m not worrying about when/if an update comes.

espiegel123

The flack and vitriol Behringer gets has, imo, nothing to do with their openness.

stormywaterz

Apple received a ton of feedback and bug reports, I submitted a bunch myself. Takes time to trouble shoot and fix so I’m not worried that it won’t get fixed and updated. The growth of the desktop took a long time. I’m sure they have a roadmap.

I like that with Apple we are getting one version of an app with upgrades. Some of these devs are working on version 4 and you have had to buy each version and then figure out how to transfer files. As much as we like cubasis, bm3 and so on you are still paying a lot for the apps.

If only it was like iOS and had beta teams to find all the issues.

A studio piano would be nice for next update and to add the rest of the instruments from the GarageBand ios.

I still like to sketch on GB and then transfer to lp4i and finish with the pro features. To each their own.

NeuM

@ErrkaPetti said:

@mjm1138 said:

@HotStrange said:

@mjm1138 said:
Steve Jobs, more than anyone, is the person who built the culture of secrecy and silence at Apple. Pre-Jobs Apple used to step on themselves all the time by pre-announcing products and failing to deliver (Copeland, anyone?). And the Apple of today leaks like a sieve. I think about when Apple announced the headset, and people already knew like 80% of the details, including many of the design details, before Apple said a word publicly. Heads would have rolled if that happened under Jobs. He was also a master of looking market segments right in the eye, saying "we're not serving you with product x anymore", and ruthlessly cutting products that customers (and third party ecosystem partners) used, loved, and relied on. OpenDoc folks felt completely burned by Jobs when he took over and killed the project dead.

Yeah Jobs has a pretty storied and complicated time with Apple. Not everything was bad but I think people tend to look back with rose colored glasses at times.

I mean, the guy was a genius as an executive and he saved the company. Those are just facts. But yeah, the reality of the Jobs era is considerably more "nuanced" than many of us remember now, a decade after his untimely departure (I'll include myself there).

Steve Jobs wasn’t just an era, Apples DNA is 100% Steve Jobs…

Quite right. Apple was legitimately his baby.

espiegel123

Steve Wozniak would like a word.

mjm1138

@ErrkaPetti said:

@mjm1138 said:

@HotStrange said:

@mjm1138 said:
Steve Jobs, more than anyone, is the person who built the culture of secrecy and silence at Apple. Pre-Jobs Apple used to step on themselves all the time by pre-announcing products and failing to deliver (Copeland, anyone?). And the Apple of today leaks like a sieve. I think about when Apple announced the headset, and people already knew like 80% of the details, including many of the design details, before Apple said a word publicly. Heads would have rolled if that happened under Jobs. He was also a master of looking market segments right in the eye, saying "we're not serving you with product x anymore", and ruthlessly cutting products that customers (and third party ecosystem partners) used, loved, and relied on. OpenDoc folks felt completely burned by Jobs when he took over and killed the project dead.

Yeah Jobs has a pretty storied and complicated time with Apple. Not everything was bad but I think people tend to look back with rose colored glasses at times.

I mean, the guy was a genius as an executive and he saved the company. Those are just facts. But yeah, the reality of the Jobs era is considerably more "nuanced" than many of us remember now, a decade after his untimely departure (I'll include myself there).

Steve Jobs wasn’t just an era, Apples DNA is 100% Steve Jobs…

I see where you’re coming from, but there was a period of several years (the Scully/Amelio era) where he had nothing to do with the company. Prior to that he was not the chief executive and wasn’t trusted by the BOD. So I think it’s perfectly fair to call the period following his return “the Steve Jobs era”. Wozniak was totally sidelined/retired by then. Everyone else was his hand-picked team. Really for the first time, Apple was totally under Jobs’ control, and he had a sympathetic board.

HotStrange

@mjm1138 said:

@HotStrange said:

@mjm1138 said:
Steve Jobs, more than anyone, is the person who built the culture of secrecy and silence at Apple. Pre-Jobs Apple used to step on themselves all the time by pre-announcing products and failing to deliver (Copeland, anyone?). And the Apple of today leaks like a sieve. I think about when Apple announced the headset, and people already knew like 80% of the details, including many of the design details, before Apple said a word publicly. Heads would have rolled if that happened under Jobs. He was also a master of looking market segments right in the eye, saying "we're not serving you with product x anymore", and ruthlessly cutting products that customers (and third party ecosystem partners) used, loved, and relied on. OpenDoc folks felt completely burned by Jobs when he took over and killed the project dead.

Yeah Jobs has a pretty storied and complicated time with Apple. Not everything was bad but I think people tend to look back with rose colored glasses at times.

I mean, the guy was a genius as an executive and he saved the company. Those are just facts. But yeah, the reality of the Jobs era is considerably more "nuanced" than many of us remember now, a decade after his untimely departure (I'll include myself there).

Oh yeah I’m not denying that at all. Guy had it in spades without a doubt. Nuance is exactly what gets lost when he’s brought up. I don’t love or hate him but I do respect what he did immensely.

HotStrange

@stormywaterz said:
Apple received a ton of feedback and bug reports, I submitted a bunch myself. Takes time to trouble shoot and fix so I’m not worried that it won’t get fixed and updated. The growth of the desktop took a long time. I’m sure they have a roadmap.

I like that with Apple we are getting one version of an app with upgrades. Some of these devs are working on version 4 and you have had to buy each version and then figure out how to transfer files. As much as we like cubasis, bm3 and so on you are still paying a lot for the apps.

If only it was like iOS and had beta teams to find all the issues.

A studio piano would be nice for next update and to add the rest of the instruments from the GarageBand ios.

I still like to sketch on GB and then transfer to lp4i and finish with the pro features. To each their own.

I don’t feel like I paid a lot of Cubasis 3 and BM3 considering 1) how much use I’ve got out of them and 2) how much desktop DAWs cost (though yes they are a bit more fully featured). And often devs will give a discount to people who invested in the previous versions.

I didn’t hate Logic, I just didn’t gel with it and didn’t use it or like it enough to justify $60+ a year since my state charges taxes on App Store purchases. I’m glad it’s here for those that do use it though and I think it’ll overall be a net positive for iOS.

Butterfrog

Not saying it's perfect but I'm finally finishing songs in LP4I. I really like it