The New Beatles’ Song

wingwizard

@vlaad3 said:

@wim said:
Someone's point about resurrecting people's unfinished work posthumously struck a chord with me. Separating the wheat from the chaff is just as much a part of artistry as any other. Sure, maybe some artists just run out of time, and would have loved to be able to finish more of their unfinished projects. But I bet it's rare. I bet they put them aside for a reason. That would be true for me at least.

I'd be royally upset if someone found all the stuff I've done that I don't think is worthy of anyone hearing and did me the "honor" of making it all public. I'd be embarrassed. I'd feel violated. I'd come back and haunt them if I could.

Agree. I think releasing his posthumous songs as Beatles violates his will unfortunately. I do love Beatles but John didnt look like he would have wanted Beatles reunite, so if someone felt the song should be heard they could have it released as Johns demo.

Not sure about that, re John and reuniting. Double fantasy or was it milk and honey i can’t remember, John had basically escaped from yoko and was reconciling with Paul. Who knows what’s hearsay but Yoko buggered that up. Managed to get her tripe on half his album. (Love and dislike john simultaneously so nit entirely blaming her)

There’s a story about Yoko shopping Paul when he landed with some weed in possession but who knows if true. She was connected though as some distant royal family thing can’t remember now.

wingwizard

@McD said:
Something special happens to any music that you listen to a hundred of time. It re-wires your brain and elevates it.
I doubt this additional Beatles song will get that treatment by me.

Some acts get this treatment from Elvis to Taylor Swift (in my lifetime). I picked these two because I pretty much avoided their
music for pretty superficial reasons on my part. I eventually realized I underestimated Elvis. I don’t think I’ll live long enough for the later to disclose her special qualities.

There are clonal reef colonies that won’t

wim

@Michael_R_Grant said:

@wim said:
I finally listened to it. meh. It's not that it's bad. It isn't. It just isn't memorable in any way. If it wasn't a (sort-of) Beatles song I wouldn't have given it more than about 30 seconds of listening.

I honestly don't believe that the four of them together would ever have released this, at least not in any form resembling this release. I don't think the song would have made the cut of songs that they would have put time in to develop further. But moreso I believe it would have ended up a very, very different thing.

Listen to the early albums in particular and it’s clear that not everything they put out was While My Guitar Gently Weeps level. This would absolutely have met the quality bar.

I disagree. They had grown and evolved by the time the song was written. They had higher standards by then.

But maybe I should revise what I said. Perhaps it would have made the cut but no way would it have resembled this piece of mediocracy by the time it was done. They would have developed it into something far better.

Just my opinion.

michael_m

@wingwizard said:

@michael_m said:

@Vip8888 said:
There is also this comparison by David Bennett which I found quite interesting, worth a watch.

He’s right about the tempo and how it was cut up. It would definitely have been a more melancholic song if it remained closer to the demo.

I don’t like the song but Paul definitely trashes it with his bull in the China shop of johns delicate delivery. He doesn’t get the tone or even the melody right. I think it’s the difference between feeling something and performing which is why I can’t listen to all these anguish faced melodramatic performances in modern music and talent shows that everyone seems to lap up

What was that Verve lyric: you get your feelings from a vending machine

Some thing like that

That was one of the strengths of their partnership - they would rein in each other’s excesses for the most part, or inspire each other to develop songs in a different direction. Without John Paul had free rein to shape it how he wanted.

None of us know what the song arrangement could be as a 4 piece, and maybe John and George would have been behind it if it had been developed further with band input.

michael_m

@wim said:

@Michael_R_Grant said:

@wim said:
I finally listened to it. meh. It's not that it's bad. It isn't. It just isn't memorable in any way. If it wasn't a (sort-of) Beatles song I wouldn't have given it more than about 30 seconds of listening.

I honestly don't believe that the four of them together would ever have released this, at least not in any form resembling this release. I don't think the song would have made the cut of songs that they would have put time in to develop further. But moreso I believe it would have ended up a very, very different thing.

Listen to the early albums in particular and it’s clear that not everything they put out was While My Guitar Gently Weeps level. This would absolutely have met the quality bar.

I disagree. They had grown and evolved by the time the song was written. They had higher standards by then.

But maybe I should revise what I said. Perhaps it would have made the cut but no way would it have resembled this piece of mediocracy by the time it was done. They would have developed it into something far better.

Just my opinion.

I have to disagree too. Their early material outsold their later material, and George Martin described John and Paul’s early songwriting as something like a bottomless pit of genius.

The simpler days of finding new ways of playing or rewriting R&B standards was the way everyone worked at the time, but you can hear the development of unusual chord structures and harmonic content moving at a rate beyond that of most of their contemporaries.

Yes, they did sometimes fall back on their Hamburg/Cavern Club set list to keep up with demand, but they rarely stuck to straightforward replication of the source material.

wim

Bottom line for me: I ask myself, "Does this song enhance the Beatles legacy?"
For me the answer is a solid "No". Thankfully it's very, very forgettable (on my part). I'm movin' on. ✌🏼

abf

@wingwizard said:
Not sure about that, re John and reuniting. Double fantasy or was it milk and honey i can’t remember, John had basically escaped from yoko and was reconciling with Paul. Who knows what’s hearsay but Yoko buggered that up. Managed to get her tripe on half his album. (Love and dislike john simultaneously so nit entirely blaming her)

There’s a story about Yoko shopping Paul when he landed with some weed in possession but who knows if true. She was connected though as some distant royal family thing can’t remember now.

?
John and Yoko were a couple with a young son and they seemed to love each other very much. They did an interview together in the days before he died as well as a famous photo shoot of naked John clinging to Yoko. They were recording Yoko's Walking On Thin Ice on the day John was killed. By all accounts John loved the song, was excited about it, and thought it was going to be a huge hit. They created art like Double Fantasy (get the title?) together like close couples do.
The endless Yoko hate is so deeply weird. The man found his soul mate, he found real love. Good for him. When he sang " I just believe in me / Yoko and me / And that’s reality" I take him at his word.

wingwizard

@abf said:

@wingwizard said:
Not sure about that, re John and reuniting. Double fantasy or was it milk and honey i can’t remember, John had basically escaped from yoko and was reconciling with Paul. Who knows what’s hearsay but Yoko buggered that up. Managed to get her tripe on half his album. (Love and dislike john simultaneously so nit entirely blaming her)

There’s a story about Yoko shopping Paul when he landed with some weed in possession but who knows if true. She was connected though as some distant royal family thing can’t remember now.

?
John and Yoko were a couple with a young son and they seemed to love each other very much. They did an interview together in the days before he died as well as a famous photo shoot of naked John clinging to Yoko. They were recording Yoko's Walking On Thin Ice on the day John was killed. By all accounts John loved the song, was excited about it, and thought it was going to be a huge hit. They created art like Double Fantasy (get the title?) together like close couples do.
The endless Yoko hate is so deeply weird. The man found his soul mate, he found real love. Good for him. When he sang " I just believe in me / Yoko and me / And that’s reality" I take him at his word.

Not sure what you’re talking about. Life is a bit more complicated than that. John and Yoko were hardly simple characters and their relationship was hardly idyllic. They covered up john breaking someone’s collarbone (after supposedly getting caught in a toilet with some bloke) and a lot of violence, which he himself alludes to, and some really dark stuff in Hamburg. He did very much love her. He also called her mother, as a surrogate mother, tried to leave her numerous times, was involved in numerous violent episodes (and comically terrible things) with her, for a lot of their relationship—possibly most and possibly right up to the end when he got away to some island to record, he was much closer to mei (pang? Can’t remember surname) who was his lover and who he was close to leaving her for. They were separated many times, John was on a years long bender up to all sorts with Harry Nilsson and ringo and top guys like murderer Phil Spector (read a very creepy episode with him). Mei was hired by Yoko so that she would have control over who John was having relationships with. Not to mention both being into heroin until cold turkey, John treating Julien like shit because his old family weren’t cool enough, and the control of his estate,

It’s pretty well reported that John didn’t want to do the naked photo shoot or album cover, but Yoko made it happen. Of course you can’t be sure what’s true but seemed convincing,

That last album was intended to be just him. But there was a dramatic turnabout when she realised, and it ended up half her.

I don’t hate Yoko though she did plenty of things that would make it very understandable disliking her. Interferenve in the Beatles is one thing I don’t really mind that much as that’s john’s life and decision (and I think writing existential art music only for Paul to say ‘guys let’s put in a marching band’ would give me the hump after a while)but the personal life stuff is pretty much characterised by abuse and hypocrisy on both of their parts . Prior to the Beatles she attempted suicide iirc and was a very extreme person herself. I actually quite like her art stuff but she has no musical talent or ability and forced her way back into his solo albums when he was making a break at least in that respect. Love..a psychological hold…his background with his mum dying after reuniting..her awarness of this and control issues,,, it’s a mess and a mix.

I recorded at a studio where Yoko has been a while before. The producer was telling me everyone played their parts then she came in with a box. She said the record needed somethimg extra. She opened the box - it contained a dead rat. She then placed it before the mic and told him to record. The bloke had put up with a fair bit that week so he just pretended to press record. After a bit they placed back the new version and she said it was much better. So. Yeah, full of shit at the least. Lol.

Of all the Beatles, john’s the one I love the most, but would take least at his word.

Simon

@wingwizard said:
That last album was intended to be just him. But there was a dramatic turnabout when she realised, and it ended up half her.

Are you sure about that?

I thought the deal David Geffin offered to get John to sign to Geffin Records was that both of them would have equal number of songs on the LPs.

wingwizard

@Simon said:

@wingwizard said:
That last album was intended to be just him. But there was a dramatic turnabout when she realised, and it ended up half her.

Are you sure about that?

I thought the deal David Geffin offered to get John to sign to Geffin Records was that both of them would have equal number of songs on the LPs.

I’m not absolutely sure it was the last one ,no it was a while back I was really into John’s stuff. Let me think. What I’d read is that John was trying to separate from her and a few things had shifted. He booked or someone booked for him a recording studio on an island somewhere. I can’t remember where. And I think it was during this time people involved said he was going to do a solo album again. John was talking all the time about this and seemed to be breaking away

Actually it must have been that album because it tallies with what you’re saying. He then went back and Yoko and realised what was happening - the both of them havung been very estranged - and suddenly the next album changed and she was doing half the songs. It was a very unexpected turnaround and friends were quoted as saying he had seemed to be doing the opposite until being back in contact with Yoko. Unless it was an earlier one - honestly I forget now . But I feel pretty certain it was double fantasy. It was wherever he recorded on an island just before

Of course you never know what’s true exactly. But people close to him’s accounts are always interesting and the drama and mei is so well established you can make a few judgements

There are just so many incidents of people from different places saying that yoko intervened in some way whenever John became close to someone who wasn’t her, whether that was women, friends, family, children, or Beatles members. Julien, Paul Etc they all have had to get bits and pieces drip fed through her vice like control.

I dunno anyways i don’t hate Yoko lol. I don’t know her but I’ve read enough re controlling everything, I find her control of the estate and also the way Julien was treated after his death, with access and stuff.. pretty telling. You just dont find many people who have met her (who don’t have some kind of identity politics going on) who find her to be a nice person.

The Julien stuff is appalling. I could say a lot more actually but I don’t have any interest in talentless famous people tbh.

I just cant hate John, even though there is so much about him that i have an instant trigger with in life, the hypocrisy and narcissism. And tbh when I read spoilt vapid sociology student tweens writing continual hit pieces in wokerags just next to articles demonising white men, i dunno… disingenuousness makes me want to scream. He had substance.

michael_m

@abf said:

@wingwizard said:
Not sure about that, re John and reuniting. Double fantasy or was it milk and honey i can’t remember, John had basically escaped from yoko and was reconciling with Paul. Who knows what’s hearsay but Yoko buggered that up. Managed to get her tripe on half his album. (Love and dislike john simultaneously so nit entirely blaming her)

There’s a story about Yoko shopping Paul when he landed with some weed in possession but who knows if true. She was connected though as some distant royal family thing can’t remember now.

?
John and Yoko were a couple with a young son and they seemed to love each other very much. They did an interview together in the days before he died as well as a famous photo shoot of naked John clinging to Yoko. They were recording Yoko's Walking On Thin Ice on the day John was killed. By all accounts John loved the song, was excited about it, and thought it was going to be a huge hit. They created art like Double Fantasy (get the title?) together like close couples do.
The endless Yoko hate is so deeply weird. The man found his soul mate, he found real love. Good for him. When he sang " I just believe in me / Yoko and me / And that’s reality" I take him at his word.

I’m a little puzzled by that too. Many of the songs on those last two albums were written about each other, and they were doing everything together.

Yoko definitely got a lot of unwarranted hate over the years.

bluegroove

Some of these posts read more like a rumor mill rather than anything else. Never a good idea to jump to conclusions based on hearsay.

Lady_App_titude

This is obviously controversial, but I don't hate this. Maybe l should. Maybe I should fear A.I. But if I'm being honest I may even like this better than the original. (What!) Notes explain how it was done.

abf

@bluegroove said:
Some of these posts read more like a rumor mill rather than anything else. Never a good idea to jump to conclusions based on hearsay.

Yeah, this thread suddenly turned into a story from the National Enquirer.

@Lady_App_titude I think it's a nice song and I think I like it more than anything else Paul has recorded in a great while.

wim

That's more like it.
It would be interesting to hear a White-Album era AI treatment. I'm sure someone will go there.

I might have to retract my notion that I'd be pissed off if anyone resurrected my rejected stuff after death. If they made it actually listenable, it'd be kinda funny actually. 😎 (not that I'd know)

Simon

@abf said:
Yeah, this thread suddenly turned into a story from the National Enquirer.

I heard from a bloke at the pub that Paul is dead. He once sold a lawnmower to Mal Evans' auntie, so he should know...

abf

@Simon said:

@abf said:
Yeah, this thread suddenly turned into a story from the National Enquirer.

I heard from a bloke at the pub that Paul is dead. He once sold a lawnmower to Mal Evans' auntie, so he should know...

Excellent sleuthing. If a bloke who briefly met Mal's auntie says so, it must be true.

michael_m

@abf said:

@bluegroove said:
Some of these posts read more like a rumor mill rather than anything else. Never a good idea to jump to conclusions based on hearsay.

Yeah, this thread suddenly turned into a story from the National Enquirer.

@Lady_App_titude I think it's a nice song and I think I like it more than anything else Paul has recorded in a great while.

Definitely better than anything Paul has done for a very long time.

I also think it’s better than the two songs resurrected for the Anthology. Both of them were fine, but just went that memorable. I don’t even think I could hum the tune to either of them off the top of my head.

wingwizard

@Lady_App_titude said:
This is obviously controversial, but I don't hate this. Maybe l should. Maybe I should fear A.I. But if I'm being honest I may even like this better than the original. (What!) Notes explain how it was done.

This is absolutely amazing! P——ses all over the released and original. Down with the humans. I knew the chorus had some magic

It’s way better as a rattling early Beatles song than a dreary solo b side.

sevenape

Late to this party but that song was awful and sounded like latter era Oasis. And it just goes on forever.

Gavinski

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/nov/16/the-lost-weekend-a-love-story-review-vivid-snapshot-of-lennons-dysfunctional-liaison-yoko-ono

michael_m

@Gavinski said:
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/nov/16/the-lost-weekend-a-love-story-review-vivid-snapshot-of-lennons-dysfunctional-liaison-yoko-ono

This seems like an odd thing to make a documentary about.

Simon

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/nov/16/the-lost-weekend-a-love-story-review-vivid-snapshot-of-lennons-dysfunctional-liaison-yoko-ono

This seems like an odd thing to make a documentary about.

It is the 2nd doco about Lennon's "Lost Weekend". The first one was a pro-Yoko "white wash job". Turns out one of the main producers behind it was a guy who did PR for Yoko.

michael_m

@Simon said:

@michael_m said:

@Gavinski said:
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/nov/16/the-lost-weekend-a-love-story-review-vivid-snapshot-of-lennons-dysfunctional-liaison-yoko-ono

This seems like an odd thing to make a documentary about.

It is the 2nd doco about Lennon's "Lost Weekend". The first one was a pro-Yoko "white wash job". Turns out one of the main producers behind it was a guy who did PR for Yoko.

Whichever side anyone takes it still isn’t something that I would watch. Never really found the private lives of people whose music I like to be of any interest.