U.S sues Apple for monopolizing.

NeuM

I suppose this is the logical (illogical?) end of this thread.

A_Fox

@wim said:
(Sorry. Not trying to fuel an argument.)

🤣
My friend Jerry can be like that sometimes.

michael_m

@A_Fox said:

@wim said:
(Sorry. Not trying to fuel an argument.)

🤣
My friend Jerry can be like that sometimes.

Hopefully this has exhausted all the arguments.

Gavinski

@BiancaNeve said:
I recall needing to produce ID to buy a SIM card on a trip to Spain.> @NoncompliantBryant said:

@NoncompliantBryant said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Gavinski said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Gavinski said:
No. That's not how they have been defined by the poster, that's how you have decided to define them, and it is wrongly conflating two separate things. In this case, the term super app simply refers to apps with a large scope which combine the functions of many disparate apps into one app. This is not to say that there are not pros and cons to any app being that powerful. But in terms of govt access to info, there is nothing inherent in the definition of super app that says they need to be related to a social credit system etc.

Super apps are those you use for your daily communication and ordinary things, thus making them a lot more attractive for (government) spying due to the amount and depth of the data they collect.

True, but NeuM really should not be saying that Super App = Social Credit Score system. That's too much of a jump. Sure though, we always need to keep alert to govt monitoring - and to corporate monitoring and their use of our data.

The social credit system in the West is your organic reach, assuming that everybody will depend on this in one way or another in the future have at least a side gig going on in some way.

Social credit in my western world is more informal than China’s, but often far more restrictive. In my profession I basically cannot express a single verboten opinion without risking my employability for the rest of my career. My profession is worse in this regard than most, but many people in many jobs are in the same boat. This is why I only use pseudonyms online.

This to me is the primary danger of superapps. Why make it easy for people who want to hurt you? It’s bad enough that Apple and Microsoft know who I am!

But you can at least use pesudonyms in the West, you can't do that in China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_real-name_system_in_China

I would caution against using western media sources to make definitive conclusions about China. It is well known that our government feeds the media and scrubs Wikipedia... Manipulating the media has been admitted by the CIA publicly in the 70s.

Pseudomyms aside, it is a paltry thing for anyone in China to get a vpn and do whatever they want. X is filled with Chinese users on vpns. The primary reason for the Chinese firewall is to keep things from coming IN to China. Not to keep people from going OUT. This is what I've learned from knowing a lot of Chinese citizens, all of whom are confused at our western ideas of what their lives look like. Gavinski nailed it.

@kirmesteggno said:

@NoncompliantBryant said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Gavinski said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Gavinski said:
No. That's not how they have been defined by the poster, that's how you have decided to define them, and it is wrongly conflating two separate things. In this case, the term super app simply refers to apps with a large scope which combine the functions of many disparate apps into one app. This is not to say that there are not pros and cons to any app being that powerful. But in terms of govt access to info, there is nothing inherent in the definition of super app that says they need to be related to a social credit system etc.

Super apps are those you use for your daily communication and ordinary things, thus making them a lot more attractive for (government) spying due to the amount and depth of the data they collect.

True, but NeuM really should not be saying that Super App = Social Credit Score system. That's too much of a jump. Sure though, we always need to keep alert to govt monitoring - and to corporate monitoring and their use of our data.

The social credit system in the West is your organic reach, assuming that everybody will depend on this in one way or another in the future have at least a side gig going on in some way.

Social credit in my western world is more informal than China’s, but often far more restrictive. In my profession I basically cannot express a single verboten opinion without risking my employability for the rest of my career. My profession is worse in this regard than most, but many people in many jobs are in the same boat. This is why I only use pseudonyms online.

This to me is the primary danger of superapps. Why make it easy for people who want to hurt you? It’s bad enough that Apple and Microsoft know who I am!

But you can at least use pesudonyms in the West, you can't do that in China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_real-name_system_in_China

I would caution against using western media sources to make definitive conclusions about China. It is well known that our government feeds the media and scrubs Wikipedia... Manipulating the media has been admitted by the CIA publicly in the 70s.

Pseudomyms aside, it is a paltry thing for anyone in China to get a vpn and do whatever they want. X is filled with Chinese users on vpns. The primary reason for the Chinese firewall is to keep things from coming IN to China. Not to keep people from going OUT. This is what I've learned from knowing a lot of Chinese citizens, all of whom are confused at our western ideas of what their lives look like. Gavinski nailed it.

So it's not to control unwanted sentiments from bubbling up within China, mkay.

If this were truly the issue, then it wouldn't be commonplace practice for everyone to have a vpn. The government would easily be able to make the use of vpns impossible if they are nearly as big and bad as we make them out to sound.

Tbh... I would say a minority of ppl have a vpn. Even a minority of educated, wealthy, young people. They all know about vpns, but they sometimes don't know how to look for one, or they baulk at the price when they find one.

Krupa

@NeuM said:

@A_Fox said:

@NeuM said:

Apple is under no obligation whatsoever to support other hardware or software companies.

Someone please let me know when I can take a Toyota truck into a Lamborghini dealership and demand they fix it for me.

Thats not the best analogy.
If Toyota made their vehicles only run on their fuel via a secret patented fuel additive and you can only buy from their fuel stations. Other people can sell their fuel through these fuel stations but there is a 30% cut to Toyota. But if your fuel is known to be lots better than Toyotas, Toyota maybe won’t let you sell it, or they might, but reduce the vehicles performance via software hitches when running on such fuel.
Of course no one would buy the Toyota, cos people aren’t thick when it comes to fuel. But lots of people aren’t particularly clued up about computers and software, integration etc.
They are buying a smartphone (etc) based on Apples advertising.

Now of course some people would say “so what! whatever is agreed between two parties is nobody else’s business”. But… That’s only correct when it’s of no consequence to anybody else. A bit like kinky sex really.

we’re all just cogs in a big machine, and if somebody is at risk of really ****ing the machine up, governments step in. Big Companies can rig markets, and it’s not allowed.
If it was allowed, Apple would have been dead in the 80s, killed by IBM.

You've gone way off on a tangent barely related to the discussion.

I mean you brought Toyota into it, and now you’re presented with a fairly good (if amusingly hyperbolic) analogy you’re done, fair play 😅😂

kirmesteggno

@Gavinski said:

@BiancaNeve said:
I recall needing to produce ID to buy a SIM card on a trip to Spain.> @NoncompliantBryant said:

@NoncompliantBryant said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Gavinski said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Gavinski said:
No. That's not how they have been defined by the poster, that's how you have decided to define them, and it is wrongly conflating two separate things. In this case, the term super app simply refers to apps with a large scope which combine the functions of many disparate apps into one app. This is not to say that there are not pros and cons to any app being that powerful. But in terms of govt access to info, there is nothing inherent in the definition of super app that says they need to be related to a social credit system etc.

Super apps are those you use for your daily communication and ordinary things, thus making them a lot more attractive for (government) spying due to the amount and depth of the data they collect.

True, but NeuM really should not be saying that Super App = Social Credit Score system. That's too much of a jump. Sure though, we always need to keep alert to govt monitoring - and to corporate monitoring and their use of our data.

The social credit system in the West is your organic reach, assuming that everybody will depend on this in one way or another in the future have at least a side gig going on in some way.

Social credit in my western world is more informal than China’s, but often far more restrictive. In my profession I basically cannot express a single verboten opinion without risking my employability for the rest of my career. My profession is worse in this regard than most, but many people in many jobs are in the same boat. This is why I only use pseudonyms online.

This to me is the primary danger of superapps. Why make it easy for people who want to hurt you? It’s bad enough that Apple and Microsoft know who I am!

But you can at least use pesudonyms in the West, you can't do that in China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_real-name_system_in_China

I would caution against using western media sources to make definitive conclusions about China. It is well known that our government feeds the media and scrubs Wikipedia... Manipulating the media has been admitted by the CIA publicly in the 70s.

Pseudomyms aside, it is a paltry thing for anyone in China to get a vpn and do whatever they want. X is filled with Chinese users on vpns. The primary reason for the Chinese firewall is to keep things from coming IN to China. Not to keep people from going OUT. This is what I've learned from knowing a lot of Chinese citizens, all of whom are confused at our western ideas of what their lives look like. Gavinski nailed it.

@kirmesteggno said:

@NoncompliantBryant said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Gavinski said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Gavinski said:
No. That's not how they have been defined by the poster, that's how you have decided to define them, and it is wrongly conflating two separate things. In this case, the term super app simply refers to apps with a large scope which combine the functions of many disparate apps into one app. This is not to say that there are not pros and cons to any app being that powerful. But in terms of govt access to info, there is nothing inherent in the definition of super app that says they need to be related to a social credit system etc.

Super apps are those you use for your daily communication and ordinary things, thus making them a lot more attractive for (government) spying due to the amount and depth of the data they collect.

True, but NeuM really should not be saying that Super App = Social Credit Score system. That's too much of a jump. Sure though, we always need to keep alert to govt monitoring - and to corporate monitoring and their use of our data.

The social credit system in the West is your organic reach, assuming that everybody will depend on this in one way or another in the future have at least a side gig going on in some way.

Social credit in my western world is more informal than China’s, but often far more restrictive. In my profession I basically cannot express a single verboten opinion without risking my employability for the rest of my career. My profession is worse in this regard than most, but many people in many jobs are in the same boat. This is why I only use pseudonyms online.

This to me is the primary danger of superapps. Why make it easy for people who want to hurt you? It’s bad enough that Apple and Microsoft know who I am!

But you can at least use pesudonyms in the West, you can't do that in China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_real-name_system_in_China

I would caution against using western media sources to make definitive conclusions about China. It is well known that our government feeds the media and scrubs Wikipedia... Manipulating the media has been admitted by the CIA publicly in the 70s.

Pseudomyms aside, it is a paltry thing for anyone in China to get a vpn and do whatever they want. X is filled with Chinese users on vpns. The primary reason for the Chinese firewall is to keep things from coming IN to China. Not to keep people from going OUT. This is what I've learned from knowing a lot of Chinese citizens, all of whom are confused at our western ideas of what their lives look like. Gavinski nailed it.

So it's not to control unwanted sentiments from bubbling up within China, mkay.

If this were truly the issue, then it wouldn't be commonplace practice for everyone to have a vpn. The government would easily be able to make the use of vpns impossible if they are nearly as big and bad as we make them out to sound.

Tbh... I would say a minority of ppl have a vpn. Even a minority of educated, wealthy, young people. They all know about vpns, but they sometimes don't know how to look for one, or they baulk at the price when they find one.

I know I may sound like an Apple shill but the $0,99 iCloud+ plan with private relay (Apples VPN), hide my email functionality, 50gb iCloud storage etc. is really a nobrainer for Apple users.

Gavinski

@kirmesteggno said:
I know I may sound like an Apple shill but the $0,99 iCloud+ plan with private relay (Apples VPN), hide my email functionality, 50gb iCloud storage etc. is really a nobrainer for Apple users.

Not available in China lol.

kirmesteggno

@Gavinski said:

@kirmesteggno said:
I know I may sound like an Apple shill but the $0,99 iCloud+ plan with private relay (Apples VPN), hide my email functionality, 50gb iCloud storage etc. is really a nobrainer for Apple users.

Not available in China lol.

Bummer yeah. I guess they don't want to risk retaliation by the Chinese government being that dependent on them for the manufacturing, and I'm not sure how their shareholders would react in such a case. Typical VPN providers don't have that much to lose.

lasselu

Gavinski

. > @lasselu said:

😂

SevenSystems

@lasselu said:

😄 that's so good that I'll even forgive its it's 😉 (and I'm not even a native English speaker...)

Gavinski

@SevenSystems said:

@lasselu said:

😄 that's so good that I'll even forgive its it's 😉 (and I'm not even a native English speaker...)

Probably caused by Apple's own autocorrect! 😉

SevenSystems

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@lasselu said:

😄 that's so good that I'll even forgive its it's 😉 (and I'm not even a native English speaker...)

Probably caused by Apple's own autocorrect! 😉

Actually you might be on to something there. I've often almost tapped on the wrong "its" suggestion instinctively... I think each predictive keyboard manufacturer should deploy a separate team to ensure it's proper itsness 😉

Gavinski

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@lasselu said:

😄 that's so good that I'll even forgive its it's 😉 (and I'm not even a native English speaker...)

Probably caused by Apple's own autocorrect! 😉

Actually you might be on to something there. I've often almost tapped on the wrong "its" suggestion instinctively... I think each predictive keyboard manufacturer should deploy a separate team to ensure it's proper itsness 😉

I see what you did there!

SevenSystems

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@lasselu said:

😄 that's so good that I'll even forgive its it's 😉 (and I'm not even a native English speaker...)

Probably caused by Apple's own autocorrect! 😉

Actually you might be on to something there. I've often almost tapped on the wrong "its" suggestion instinctively... I think each predictive keyboard manufacturer should deploy a separate team to ensure it's proper itsness 😉

I see what you did there!

Note that it actually is correct either way, so I did a grammatical double-whammy there!

Gavinski

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@lasselu said:

😄 that's so good that I'll even forgive its it's 😉 (and I'm not even a native English speaker...)

Probably caused by Apple's own autocorrect! 😉

Actually you might be on to something there. I've often almost tapped on the wrong "its" suggestion instinctively... I think each predictive keyboard manufacturer should deploy a separate team to ensure it's proper itsness 😉

I see what you did there!

Note that it actually is correct either way, so I did a grammatical double-whammy there!

I noticed that and silently nodded in awe

SevenSystems

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@lasselu said:

😄 that's so good that I'll even forgive its it's 😉 (and I'm not even a native English speaker...)

Probably caused by Apple's own autocorrect! 😉

Actually you might be on to something there. I've often almost tapped on the wrong "its" suggestion instinctively... I think each predictive keyboard manufacturer should deploy a separate team to ensure it's proper itsness 😉

I see what you did there!

Note that it actually is correct either way, so I did a grammatical double-whammy there!

I noticed that and silently nodded in awe

Maybe I should become a comedian. Even appearing on the stage without doing anything would be enough 😄

Gavinski

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@lasselu said:

😄 that's so good that I'll even forgive its it's 😉 (and I'm not even a native English speaker...)

Probably caused by Apple's own autocorrect! 😉

Actually you might be on to something there. I've often almost tapped on the wrong "its" suggestion instinctively... I think each predictive keyboard manufacturer should deploy a separate team to ensure it's proper itsness 😉

I see what you did there!

Note that it actually is correct either way, so I did a grammatical double-whammy there!

I noticed that and silently nodded in awe

Maybe I should become a comedian. Even appearing on the stage without doing anything would be enough 😄

If you were wearing (hey, I spelt those right, wrote that right too!) lederhosen, yes, it would, I reckon 😛

SevenSystems

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@lasselu said:

😄 that's so good that I'll even forgive its it's 😉 (and I'm not even a native English speaker...)

Probably caused by Apple's own autocorrect! 😉

Actually you might be on to something there. I've often almost tapped on the wrong "its" suggestion instinctively... I think each predictive keyboard manufacturer should deploy a separate team to ensure it's proper itsness 😉

I see what you did there!

Note that it actually is correct either way, so I did a grammatical double-whammy there!

I noticed that and silently nodded in awe

Maybe I should become a comedian. Even appearing on the stage without doing anything would be enough 😄

If you were wearing (hey, I spelt those right, wrote that right too!) lederhosen, yes, it would, I reckon 😛

Nah I emigrated from Germany specifically to avoid the Lederhosen!

NeuM

@kirmesteggno said:

@Gavinski said:

@kirmesteggno said:
I know I may sound like an Apple shill but the $0,99 iCloud+ plan with private relay (Apples VPN), hide my email functionality, 50gb iCloud storage etc. is really a nobrainer for Apple users.

Not available in China lol.

Bummer yeah. I guess they don't want to risk retaliation by the Chinese government being that dependent on them for the manufacturing, and I'm not sure how their shareholders would react in such a case. Typical VPN providers don't have that much to lose.

I seriously doubt it was Apple's choice. They're required to follow the laws and regulations of every country in which they operate.

vitocorleone123

Here's some additional analysis on The Verge that does a good job of outlining the strengths, challenges, and what the DOJ seems to be asking for (it doesn't appear to be their goal to break up the company, but to get them to stop any practices the court deems illegal - if any)

https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/22/24109033/doj-apple-antitrust-lawsuit-legal-expert-praise

kirmesteggno

@NeuM said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Gavinski said:

@kirmesteggno said:
I know I may sound like an Apple shill but the $0,99 iCloud+ plan with private relay (Apples VPN), hide my email functionality, 50gb iCloud storage etc. is really a nobrainer for Apple users.

Not available in China lol.

Bummer yeah. I guess they don't want to risk retaliation by the Chinese government being that dependent on them for the manufacturing, and I'm not sure how their shareholders would react in such a case. Typical VPN providers don't have that much to lose.

I seriously doubt it was Apple's choice. They're required to follow the laws and regulations of every country in which they operate.

I guess it's anticipatory obedience (vorrauseileneder Gehorsam in German) because VPNs are not illegal in China, it's necessary for foreign businesses.

Not sure how that works if you bring your own device into China and are already an Apple Relay user, if they just deactivate it or if the unavailability only applies to Chinese citizens and devices aquired within China.

NeuM

@kirmesteggno said:

@NeuM said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Gavinski said:

@kirmesteggno said:
I know I may sound like an Apple shill but the $0,99 iCloud+ plan with private relay (Apples VPN), hide my email functionality, 50gb iCloud storage etc. is really a nobrainer for Apple users.

Not available in China lol.

Bummer yeah. I guess they don't want to risk retaliation by the Chinese government being that dependent on them for the manufacturing, and I'm not sure how their shareholders would react in such a case. Typical VPN providers don't have that much to lose.

I seriously doubt it was Apple's choice. They're required to follow the laws and regulations of every country in which they operate.

I guess it's anticipatory obedience (vorrauseileneder Gehorsam in German) because VPNs are not illegal in China, it's necessary for foreign businesses.

Not sure how that works if you bring your own device into China and are already an Apple Relay user, if they just deactivate it or if the unavailability only applies to Chinese citizens and devices aquired within China.

Here’s some background from a 2017 article:
https://www.macworld.com/article/230330/apple-in-china-why-the-company-withdrew-vpn-apps-from-its-app-store.html

And more recent information which demonstrates the levels of restrictiveness they face:
https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/29/23895650/apple-app-store-loophole-china-firewall-regulation-licensing

Gavinski

@kirmesteggno said:

@NeuM said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Gavinski said:

@kirmesteggno said:
I know I may sound like an Apple shill but the $0,99 iCloud+ plan with private relay (Apples VPN), hide my email functionality, 50gb iCloud storage etc. is really a nobrainer for Apple users.

Not available in China lol.

Bummer yeah. I guess they don't want to risk retaliation by the Chinese government being that dependent on them for the manufacturing, and I'm not sure how their shareholders would react in such a case. Typical VPN providers don't have that much to lose.

I seriously doubt it was Apple's choice. They're required to follow the laws and regulations of every country in which they operate.

I guess it's anticipatory obedience (vorrauseileneder Gehorsam in German) because VPNs are not illegal in China, it's necessary for foreign businesses.

Not sure how that works if you bring your own device into China and are already an Apple Relay user, if they just deactivate it or if the unavailability only applies to Chinese citizens and devices aquired within China.

"iCloud in China mainland is operated by GCBD (AIPO Cloud (Guizhou) Technology Co. Ltd). This allows us to continue to improve iCloud services in China mainland and comply with Chinese regulations"
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/111754

NeuM

@Gavinski said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@NeuM said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Gavinski said:

@kirmesteggno said:
I know I may sound like an Apple shill but the $0,99 iCloud+ plan with private relay (Apples VPN), hide my email functionality, 50gb iCloud storage etc. is really a nobrainer for Apple users.

Not available in China lol.

Bummer yeah. I guess they don't want to risk retaliation by the Chinese government being that dependent on them for the manufacturing, and I'm not sure how their shareholders would react in such a case. Typical VPN providers don't have that much to lose.

I seriously doubt it was Apple's choice. They're required to follow the laws and regulations of every country in which they operate.

I guess it's anticipatory obedience (vorrauseileneder Gehorsam in German) because VPNs are not illegal in China, it's necessary for foreign businesses.

Not sure how that works if you bring your own device into China and are already an Apple Relay user, if they just deactivate it or if the unavailability only applies to Chinese citizens and devices aquired within China.

iCloud in China mainland is operated by GCBD (AIPO Cloud (Guizhou) Technology Co. Ltd). This allows us to continue to improve iCloud services in China mainland and comply with Chinese regulations
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/111754

As I mentioned, basically nothing is possible without Chinese government approval for foreign businesses there.

Gavinski

@NeuM said:

@Gavinski said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@NeuM said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Gavinski said:

@kirmesteggno said:
I know I may sound like an Apple shill but the $0,99 iCloud+ plan with private relay (Apples VPN), hide my email functionality, 50gb iCloud storage etc. is really a nobrainer for Apple users.

Not available in China lol.

Bummer yeah. I guess they don't want to risk retaliation by the Chinese government being that dependent on them for the manufacturing, and I'm not sure how their shareholders would react in such a case. Typical VPN providers don't have that much to lose.

I seriously doubt it was Apple's choice. They're required to follow the laws and regulations of every country in which they operate.

I guess it's anticipatory obedience (vorrauseileneder Gehorsam in German) because VPNs are not illegal in China, it's necessary for foreign businesses.

Not sure how that works if you bring your own device into China and are already an Apple Relay user, if they just deactivate it or if the unavailability only applies to Chinese citizens and devices aquired within China.

iCloud in China mainland is operated by GCBD (AIPO Cloud (Guizhou) Technology Co. Ltd). This allows us to continue to improve iCloud services in China mainland and comply with Chinese regulations
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/111754

As I mentioned, basically nothing is possible without Chinese government approval for foreign businesses there.

Yes, and that is fair enough in my opinion, as a general principle, whether or not I personally like the Chinese regime. Do you think that every country should just accept whatever aligns with the American government's values and preferences? I don't.

NeuM

@Gavinski said:

@NeuM said:

@Gavinski said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@NeuM said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Gavinski said:

@kirmesteggno said:
I know I may sound like an Apple shill but the $0,99 iCloud+ plan with private relay (Apples VPN), hide my email functionality, 50gb iCloud storage etc. is really a nobrainer for Apple users.

Not available in China lol.

Bummer yeah. I guess they don't want to risk retaliation by the Chinese government being that dependent on them for the manufacturing, and I'm not sure how their shareholders would react in such a case. Typical VPN providers don't have that much to lose.

I seriously doubt it was Apple's choice. They're required to follow the laws and regulations of every country in which they operate.

I guess it's anticipatory obedience (vorrauseileneder Gehorsam in German) because VPNs are not illegal in China, it's necessary for foreign businesses.

Not sure how that works if you bring your own device into China and are already an Apple Relay user, if they just deactivate it or if the unavailability only applies to Chinese citizens and devices aquired within China.

iCloud in China mainland is operated by GCBD (AIPO Cloud (Guizhou) Technology Co. Ltd). This allows us to continue to improve iCloud services in China mainland and comply with Chinese regulations
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/111754

As I mentioned, basically nothing is possible without Chinese government approval for foreign businesses there.

Yes, and that is fair enough in my opinion, as a general principle, whether or not I personally like the Chinese regime. Do you think that every country should just accept whatever aligns with the American government's values and preferences? I don't.

Here’s the issue: Right now, China-based TikTok does not have their servers in the US, they do not have a government appointed “minder” on their board of directors (that’s something no company should be required to have anywhere, in my opinion) and TikTok is not forced to employ a certain percentage of US citizens for their workforce. All of those things are required of non-Chinese businesses operating in China. So the playing field right now is absolutely not equal.

Oh, and let’s not forget about China’s mandatory “technology transfer” requirements!

kirmesteggno

@NeuM said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@NeuM said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Gavinski said:

@kirmesteggno said:
I know I may sound like an Apple shill but the $0,99 iCloud+ plan with private relay (Apples VPN), hide my email functionality, 50gb iCloud storage etc. is really a nobrainer for Apple users.

Not available in China lol.

Bummer yeah. I guess they don't want to risk retaliation by the Chinese government being that dependent on them for the manufacturing, and I'm not sure how their shareholders would react in such a case. Typical VPN providers don't have that much to lose.

I seriously doubt it was Apple's choice. They're required to follow the laws and regulations of every country in which they operate.

I guess it's anticipatory obedience (vorrauseileneder Gehorsam in German) because VPNs are not illegal in China, it's necessary for foreign businesses.

Not sure how that works if you bring your own device into China and are already an Apple Relay user, if they just deactivate it or if the unavailability only applies to Chinese citizens and devices aquired within China.

Here’s some background from a 2017 article:
https://www.macworld.com/article/230330/apple-in-china-why-the-company-withdrew-vpn-apps-from-its-app-store.html

And more recent information which demonstrates the levels of restrictiveness they face:
https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/29/23895650/apple-app-store-loophole-china-firewall-regulation-licensing

Thanks for the links, they confirm some of my assumptions.

Macworld:

"It all seems about leverage. Apple needs Chinese approval to sell its hardware and software in China and allow people to access its App Store and services. China has proven willing to bump major companies out of its market if they don’t comply."

kirmesteggno

@Gavinski said:

@NeuM said:

@Gavinski said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@NeuM said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Gavinski said:

@kirmesteggno said:
I know I may sound like an Apple shill but the $0,99 iCloud+ plan with private relay (Apples VPN), hide my email functionality, 50gb iCloud storage etc. is really a nobrainer for Apple users.

Not available in China lol.

Bummer yeah. I guess they don't want to risk retaliation by the Chinese government being that dependent on them for the manufacturing, and I'm not sure how their shareholders would react in such a case. Typical VPN providers don't have that much to lose.

I seriously doubt it was Apple's choice. They're required to follow the laws and regulations of every country in which they operate.

I guess it's anticipatory obedience (vorrauseileneder Gehorsam in German) because VPNs are not illegal in China, it's necessary for foreign businesses.

Not sure how that works if you bring your own device into China and are already an Apple Relay user, if they just deactivate it or if the unavailability only applies to Chinese citizens and devices aquired within China.

iCloud in China mainland is operated by GCBD (AIPO Cloud (Guizhou) Technology Co. Ltd). This allows us to continue to improve iCloud services in China mainland and comply with Chinese regulations
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/111754

As I mentioned, basically nothing is possible without Chinese government approval for foreign businesses there.

Yes, and that is fair enough in my opinion, as a general principle, whether or not I personally like the Chinese regime. Do you think that every country should just accept whatever aligns with the American government's values and preferences? I don't.

The problem with authoritarianism and dictatorships on a global trade level is comparable to playing and competing against cheaters. The more the cheaters succeed the more likely others will start to cheat as well in order to keep up.

Super apps and the control it would enable if those become a monopoly is basically such a cheatcode.

Gavinski

@kirmesteggno said:

@Gavinski said:

@NeuM said:

@Gavinski said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@NeuM said:

@kirmesteggno said:

@Gavinski said:

@kirmesteggno said:
I know I may sound like an Apple shill but the $0,99 iCloud+ plan with private relay (Apples VPN), hide my email functionality, 50gb iCloud storage etc. is really a nobrainer for Apple users.

Not available in China lol.

Bummer yeah. I guess they don't want to risk retaliation by the Chinese government being that dependent on them for the manufacturing, and I'm not sure how their shareholders would react in such a case. Typical VPN providers don't have that much to lose.

I seriously doubt it was Apple's choice. They're required to follow the laws and regulations of every country in which they operate.

I guess it's anticipatory obedience (vorrauseileneder Gehorsam in German) because VPNs are not illegal in China, it's necessary for foreign businesses.

Not sure how that works if you bring your own device into China and are already an Apple Relay user, if they just deactivate it or if the unavailability only applies to Chinese citizens and devices aquired within China.

iCloud in China mainland is operated by GCBD (AIPO Cloud (Guizhou) Technology Co. Ltd). This allows us to continue to improve iCloud services in China mainland and comply with Chinese regulations
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/111754

As I mentioned, basically nothing is possible without Chinese government approval for foreign businesses there.

Yes, and that is fair enough in my opinion, as a general principle, whether or not I personally like the Chinese regime. Do you think that every country should just accept whatever aligns with the American government's values and preferences? I don't.

The problem with authoritarianism and dictatorships on a global trade level is comparable to playing and competing against cheaters. The more the cheaters succeed the more likely others will start to cheat as well in order to keep up.

Super apps and the control it would enable if those become a monopoly is basically such a cheatcode.

True, though the US doesn't exactly have a great track record when it comes to playing fair on the international stage, lol. American policy is far more about preserving its own dominance than about objective assessment of rights and wrongs. To take one example, the US is very quick to point out Chinese human rights abuses while turning a blind eye to human rights in allied counties like Saudi Arabia. Double standards much?!

This is not to say we should have a race to the bottom, but it is important to point out in a discussion like this, and the US's own behaviour has contributed to other countries feeling that they don't need to follow the rules.