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Comments
@gjcyrus - damn if I could get you on guitar(complete with wanking), and DD on drums(wont stop playing until infinity)... It's like my old band!
Lmfao on that post...
Now that's one beat I bet different drummer couldn't create.
"no app will ever be Moon, Bonham or Baker"
Not true. Slice up a few drum and percussion channels from easily obtainable vintage multitrack recordings and load them into DM1 (which was released for free at one point) et voila... you now have a pro drummer on your ipad! Any simple square beats that you make in 30 seconds will sound infinitely more natural than what any outrageously overpriced drum machine can do in half an hour.
I have Carlton Barrett, Roger Taylor, Ringo Starr, Phil Selway and Uriel Jones on my ipad right now.
Here's a free sample pack (in 24 bit) to get the idea:
http://www.rhythm-lab.com/processed-vinyl-drums
@solador you seem bent on putting DD down for whatever reason (well the price, I get it) but my friends who are great drummers like Michael Shrieve (see 16 year old drummer with Santana in Woodstock movie), Dave Taub who drummed for Billy Idol, Yes, John Lennon, Chakka Khan, Tower of Power and South Texas Soul Crushers are way more open to new ideas and tools and what you just proposed was not exactly a shining beacon of creative thinking. It's a free world so go ahead and loop yesteryear's drums as your own fresh content...you are right about one thing, those do sound great! If you think a static loop is the same as having a creative live human drum maestro it makes me wonder if you've ever played with one. You don't have Ringo Starr on your iPad...you have a Ringo Starr analog-to-digital recording of one moment in time from back in the day. Peace.
@AQ808 Distortion is relative to what's considered normal. Figure and GB distorted things the other way. iOS distorted the software market as a whole. Any healthy, mature market will have the full range of mainstream to niche. To me, DD's success indicates a maturing of the iOS music apps space. If general price points increase because of this (they already have been increasing for iOS music apps over the last 5 yrs) I see that as more of an overall 'correction' rather than a distortion.
Some products are better suited to the 'low volume high price' approach, and also the 'priced above its rational ROI' approach (e.g. many Apple products). The product has to be able to appeal very strongly to a certain audience. And the app creator has to be willing to focus on that small audience. That last point is important - many app creators (myself included) just wouldn't be motivated to work in this space without the goal of reaching lots of people, so we would always want to price lower and try to make it up in volume / IAPs / pro versions.
@Simon It's also fairly established by now that if they had laid out 3 scarves next to each other priced at $10, $20 and $40, then the $20 one would sell way more units than if they had just put it out at $10 by itself. Relative pricing and price anchoring are incredibly powerful things.
The SoundPrism 1M number is a huge milestone (congratulations Sebastian!), and from looking at the appannie historical rankings I'm pretty sure that it includes the free downloads. The only question is whether those account for 50% or 80% or 95% of the total. I'd guess around 80%.
And... ummm... yeah I don't have much to add to the 'elephant in the room' sub-topic on this thread except to say that this forum never disappoints
A sign has been posted. No wanking allowed on The Bus. My co-workers think ive lost it. I keep having random outburst of laughter. They want to know why im laughing, but I think i'll keep this one as a family secret. Only on The Bus. @gjcyrus thanks for sharing.
@technemedia
Where does the hip hop breakbeat come from?
For the record, it's not a static loop. The idea is to cut the tracks into prime elements (i.e. kick, snare, hat, tom, etc) and then build an infinite number of patterns out of those elements. You could mix and match them. Or layer them with an 808 as an example.
You don't even need to cut vintage recordings (those are just some of the most easily obtainable). You could use your friend's band, or Radiohead, or Nine Inch Nails, or slice up your own Impaktor beat. The possibilities are endless.
In theory, you could even load these samples into your outrageously overpriced drum machine, but I don't think you've answered the simple question of whether your app actually supports 24 bit samples.
http://i.imgur.com/qz9RL7L.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9kzIMFL.jpg
.
Technemedia.
Could you please post a video of the capabilities of DD.As you have a better understanding of it then us.
I think that would be the only thing that would put this argument to rest.
So far you've sold what it can do.
But the soundcloud posting and videos available have only scratched the surface.
Would be a shame for the debate to lose the plot..
@paulb re: 100 at $1.50 vs 1 at $150. Stack em high and watch em fly works really well for hamburgers or scarves but with software, that's 149 more potential support emails with varying requests, complaints and environments to support.
Great thread.
Drums, drummers, drum programmers, beat makers, drum apps...seem to excite and inspire people in lots of different ways..I started another thread ages ago called..IT'S ALL ABOUT THE DRUMS...and that thread went for a long while...I suppose it could be that rhythm and banging stuff has been around for so long...maybe it was even the first way to make music...that it brings out some sort of need to debate.....I'm playing it safe with my next video with a synth one..
@Rhism I have to disagree in that iOS has actually removed the prior distortions of the PC market which proceeded it.
First thing is that most PC software has always been overpriced because pricing was targeted to encompass commercial organizations, at least in the US, who could write off the price of the software against their taxes. In every space of products where there is a commercial buyer which can buy without feeling the price, the price increases, punishing average consumers who can't write it off. You then see split tiers between consumer grade and commercial grade, with a small split in price between. The consumer version has to be priced high enough that the commercial organization wouldn't choose it over the "pro" tier, so consumers were historically screwed.
The iOS ecosystem is entirely based on smaller end-users by preventing all of the business tactics technemedia mentioned about the way he sold boxed software in the past, which overinflated prices.
Second, on iOS we are not having to pay a higher price in order to subsidize software piracy. I personally enjoy financially supporting software for the true value it offers, but in a heavily distorted piracy drenched marketplace, you end up having to pay way over actual value to simply be an honest and supportive consumer. If the dev knows that he can only get 2% of people who download it to buy, and many use it without paying, then you end up with severely distorted models of subsidization pricing. iOS is largely preventing falling into this as a platform by more than a few ways.
If I want to add a third, it would have to be that the distribution model, and the price of it, compared to every other model besides direct sales is actually cheaper than most other available channels.
I must say, I don't like seeing those distortions be revived without any justification other than "that's the way it used to be", "a small loyal clientele with amazing support", and boutique mysticalism.
All straight up marketing attempts to downplay the distortions iOS has helped erode.
In this maket you have to, and should, bring true comparative value to your pricing to individual consumers worldwide… not holdover psychology from the atrocious PC markets.
Fair point by @syrupcore. I hadn't considered that when posting a similar suggestion as PaulB's.
That really would make a huge difference and would need to be considered economically.
I find it pretty crazy that Audiobus, which has done more for iOS musicians than any app before and probably after, is a mere $10 while an app like Different Drummer prices itself at 15x that amount. Why, because its unique? Thats 5x more than Korg, Moog, or IK price their apps, and these are names that can be trusted and have proven their worth. It seems kind of insulting when I think about it too long.
@syrupcore makes a good point about pricing vs customer support, but I hardly think its justified to price yourself so high you become completely inaccessable to the majority of people who would use your product.
AB is a game changer, DD is just a game. I think I'll pass.
@CSwinn Why would you be insulted? It's his app. He's allowed to charge what he wants. I wouldn't be insulted if you sold your new record for $150 even though everyone else sells theirs for $9.99 - I just wouldn't buy it if the price didn't match up with what I wanted.
@Simon Sorry, my post was poorly-worded. I also said "this forum never ceases to disappoint" when I meant "this forum never disappoints" - that's what I get for posting first thing in the morning. Anyways your point is spot on, underpricing can definitely reduce unit sales just as much as overpricing, and on iOS it's easy to experiment with price to see what works best. My response was building on that: if you display together a low-quality scarf at $10, a mid-quality one at $20 and a luxury one at $40, the mid-range one will sell way more than if you'd displayed it on its own. It's a result of the price anchoring effect which I think has played a part here with DD.
@AQ808 Awesome points wrt the 'old way' having its own distortions that iOS has helped erode. I agree with all 3 of them. That said I do think iOS apps are vastly underpriced relative to the value they offer, even for consumers. It's absolutely insane that ThumbJam is cheaper than a movie ticket, given everything it does. If TJ were $30 very few people would buy it, even though most of us have probably gotten more than $30 of mileage from it. IMO any changes in the marketplace that can help apps capture their 'true' value are erosions of distortion. Raising price expectations to a level that's more sustainable for developers while still being affordable to consumers is not a bad thing in my book.
@mgmg4871 That's a t-shirt in the making
@Sryupcore You wouldn't think I was perhaps a bit pretentious, or out of touch with my audience selling my record at that price? If the Rolling Stones want to charge $150 for covert tickets, great, it makes sense. If I started charging $150 for my shows, not only would the room be empty, I'd have probably alienated a good portion of people who maybe would have come for a cheaper price.
Really interesting thread and everybody has valid points on many topics covered (except for one ;-). Honestly, I don't know if I'd say iOS has distorted the market more than it's sort of WalMarted it. I say let the market decide the value of an app, not individuals who don't like the price. If my few customers are happy, nice, supportive and we are in contact and I'm giving personal support and they are helping support my biz a la "mini-crowdfunding" (don't forget rent, internet, employees, etc. are very expensive, especially in NJ) then who am I hurting? It's just a specialized music software (much more than drums as you will find out when I post a video) that's not for everyone. If you don't like the price, don't buy it. If you don't like the concept, don't buy it. If you don't like me, don't buy it. If you don't like the way it sounds, don't buy it. You are the market and you have your rights! If you do buy it and don't like it, let me know or tell everyone how much it sucks. I can't stop you anyway because that's the market at work. Keep it real. 50 bucks is only like 12 lattes. I hope the AB guys make way more than I make...they deserve it. BTW...I'm listening and thinking on the price because I have an open mind...my actual customers so far are mostly telling me not to lower the price because they think it's worth it...which is indeed interesting.
If DD wasn't a sort of "Golden Goose" of music and only had one "egg" to offer I wouldn't dare charge so much. Remember, I almost wanted to keep it for myself to produce my own music so it's also a release to the public of a personal gem.
These things are all subjective though, I don't begrudge @technemedia and I'm not saying his app is pretentious. If that's what he wants to charge, great. I don't want to be negative.
However, I've purchased lots of apps (and records and concert tickets) and I think the developers (and artists) should know when an otherwise interested customer isn't buying their product due to the price.
Wow i had a lot of catching up to do....a lot of personal revelations about forum members.
@TechneMedia - I've noticed a couple reasons for the crashes. It crashes if you try to select the Audiocopy/paste logo versus "Paste New Sample" button it will crash. Also, under "ABA" menu, if you click the + sign to move a waveform over and forget to actually select a waveform to move it will crash.
@Everyone_Else - It is a unique app, I'm still trying to justify $50, but I have had a lot of fun with it. I have uploaded my own favorite samples and named then, but haven't gotten a chance to play with it yet. I will post examples with own samples if ppl want. I thought about making a video but would also need more time to learn so that's not for sure but Souncloud examples are easily done. My samples sound the same in and out. Can't remember who posted it maybe @gjcyrus but I think he meant Figure as DD kinda of changes up the sound of your "kick" or whatever, though goes far beyond Figure and it should because of price point, I don't think he was comparing it directly to figure. I'll be the first to say Figure is an awesome app. I am looking forward to the future updates of DD. Sure, I guess you can say I bought it because of my musical shortcomings, or I bought it because I was curious and wanted another tool. Yes there are some cool drum apps out there but compared to synths, the market isn't nearly as flooded with drum apps so I think there Is still room for something more/better. Of course, every app has things it can and cannot do, whether its 99 cents or $50, and I understand the argument if "it's $50 it should do this and that" I am not trying to get in an argument with anyone and I won't. I am pleased that @TechneMedia seems open and willing to any constructively critiscimed suggestions. Thank!
@technemedia
"don't forget rent, internet, employees, etc. are very expensive, especially in NJ)"
I noticed that you didn't include royalty payments in your expense report.
Do you have the rights to resell the 808 samples in your app?
I have The real 808
With midi mod
Techmedia:
"my actual customers so far are mostly telling me not to lower the price because they think it's worth it...which is indeed interesting"
Well,another point of view could be:they would be slightly pissed if they paid 50 bucks (or much more)and you lower the price more or less shortly after they purchased it.just sayin... ;-)
It's free market.I have really no problems with this price at all.And compared to PC software i'm absolutely sure the app is worth every penny.But this is iOS and for me it's easy to skip on this one for now.But i wish everyone involved good luck with this app for sure!
I'll go and play a little with impaktor now
@Sinapsya
And you can use it to make music. But to release a commerical app featuring samples from it, you need clearance from Roland.
@syrupcore Very good point, I had not factored in customer support, but while support issues compromise my point somewhat, I do not think they totally invalidate it.
Yes, licensing is also a big expense and it's 808-like, not 808 itself. If you want to run a business you can include apple 30%, dev license, tax, insurance, utilities, office expenses, accountant...much more it all adds up to a lot of apps and frankly what I heard most devs struggle to break even...try putting two kids through college on top of that...when you get older
I support the arts and other devs too and we have employed many dozens of people over the years...it's all good. BTW...people can sample their real 808s and see what DD does to it...maybe we'll rename it to 809.
This has gotten way to "political" now, I'm out! I bought the app, but it appears as the goal now isn't discussing the app, rather to harass the dev. If you don't like it, thats fine, don't buy it! but please remember we are all human beings. Im not sticking up for the dev/product but seriously....Move on and make music!
Good answer. Can you please elaborate now on some of the hardware used to capture the sounds, bit rates, etc? Thanks.
Am feeling that to JMS.
There's a disconnect here,as no one but the dev really knows what this app is capable of.
The in depth vid should show ppl what it's all about and then its up to them to decide if they want to buy it or not.