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Rotten Apples
So I just made another music related purchase on the AppStore and properly read the pop up message I got just before authorising my purchase of Arpeggist. I'm sorry, English is my second or third parallel language so maybe I'm not perceiving the implied irony or sarcasm included in the message. No matter how I try to interpret it, it always some comes across as a corporate pisstake. Here it is, you probably have seen it before.
Comments
Yes, I noticed this message has started popping up. Not sure how you could press 'buy' and not download it when purchasing from the iPad.
But why do they even bother with this message. Has anything change since before they brought it in? I think it ties in with the recent thing where they started allowing 2 weeks money back on all purchases. I'm not sure if it is the European or UK customer rights law they have to comply with. If so, then this is really rotten way of complying. I understand what havoc it might have caused to them getting the money in and out all the time.
I got it too. I only used the "14 days no questions asked" thing once so I think it's stupid that I'm not able to use it anymore.
I have the same thing since recently. actually, it started after buying a gift card and having that credit in my account. this apparently triggered the "you can't return purchases any more" punishment.
i talked to an apple representative and they say there is an algorythm that automatically withdraws your right to return purchases, based on how many returns you have and possibly also how much money is in your account and other factors.
it is a weird algorythm, i think, because buying a gift card is a committment to spend money, so to punish that is kind of weird.
also, the wording of that message etc. makes it feel almost like a help for app addicts, like "hey, do you REALLY want to buy this? The money will be gone forever even if the app turns out to be lousy"
very strange from apple.
also, you have the right to return apps, "but not too many". the apple representative couldn't tell me exactly how much is too many, but he suggested more than one or two per month were certainly over the top and unacceptable.
Interesting - I've had this appear recently too, I thought I'd overstepped the unspecified amount of refunds allowed, but as I've hardly used this, and only when an app is completely borked, didn't think this was the case.
I tried to get a refund on an app last week (not music related) as it didn't work, but no longer had the option, so I'm stuck with it.
Nice work Apple - removing customer refund rights for bad purchases. I'm now being mega-careful before spending money on their store.
on the bright side -- they're helping us spending less money
apple politics sucks, it feels like your a dumb little kid, which need their hands to walk.....
but only inside of the little golden cage, please!
Okay, Some FAN-Boyz/Girlz like that, it makes them scary if you open the door and let them breath fresh free air....
Hmmm. I would guess that this is perceived as indeed being exploited as a loophole in some way. Not necessarily by our purchase demographic, but, let's say, any number of 12 year olds have decided it's fun to download 'Spunky's Revenge', play for a week, and then cash it back in.....bean counters observe behavior, shiver at the lack of power, call counsel, have meetings, rub hands, post weasel-round message, implemented as algorythm with no real heart or mind to judge on a per case basis.
Or they could just be buggers who don't want the customer (or their rights advocates) telling them what to do.
To quote Mister @nick on the bright side -- they're helping us spending less money.
I seem to remember reading something about Apple changing the App Store a bit making it easier to purchase apps (by not requiring a password every time) and the ability to return apps with little to no questions asked. So for the consumers this might be considered a good thing but for dev's I think this could be bad news!
not sure if this is actually true -- I personally would tend to spend more money if I can try out apps, especially expensive ones.
"If this is as good as it looks like, I want it. If it isn't I return it" -- I bought a number of apps based on the right to return them no questions asked. And kept many of them, returned a few.
From a legal perspective, if you've purchased a product that doesn't function as advertised you are entitled to a full refund. I'm not sure how Apple are able to get around this, as a customer may have bought ten apps that don't work, and so is legally entitled to be refunded regardless of Apples hidden limits.
If the new refund policy was being abused Apple needs to find a fix that doesn't affect genuine customer complaints.
Tricky one. Personally I haven't 'returned' any apps yet (though I've been tempted) as such, I suppose Apple's definition of something 'working' and a user's definition may well be very different.
All these music apps 'work', but some not as well as we'd like
. so I don't know what signal this message is intended to give out ?
That's why devs put out free with IAP (to unlock) or the "light' demo apps so we can try them. That's also why we will probably will not see anthother iFunBox because people could just buy an app to rip out the sounds and presets and simply return it. Plus it probably opens up a whole new can of worms for the pirating community. I personally think a partial refund or even a credit should only be provided after proof of an app not working, not because someone didn't like it. There are many resources previewing, reviewing, demoing, and dissecting almost all apps even with pics and videos.
Yeah I'm wondering if what they are doing is legal and within consumer rights etc.
If you bought via your credit card then I think it would still be easy to get your money back if there is a problem, just make a complaint to your credit card company.... but if app store credit is used then not.
Not really, Apple are legally required to provide an accurate description of the product at the point of sale. If the app says 'supports Audiobus', and when you download it, it doesn't...or 'works on iPad' and doesn't work on your iPad 2 then they are required to refund your purchase.
The issue for Apple is that once downloaded you've got it, but that's their problem.
They could be in contravention of UK distance selling regulations on this one.
This is because of the amount of people who do this to gain a paid app for free, so for instance you buy Cubasis at $50 or whatever, you could then go and get a refund for that app, and if its within 14 days it's a no questions asked refund, the money goes back into your account, however the app is still there and functions normally, the only thing you can't do is update it. It relied on people being honest and deleting the app.
So now people are getting punished for other people's dishonesty, after that 14 days you could still request a refund but you would need to fill in the form asking what the problem is and the reason you want your money back.
None this would be happening now if the system disabled or deleted the app in question, and of course if people hadn't abused the system just to get free apps
Apple are legally required to provide an accurate description of the product at the point of sale. If the app says 'supports Audiobus', and when you download it, it doesn't...or 'works on iPad' and doesn't work on your iPad 2 then they are required to refund your purchase.
Fair point, but (perhaps a little off-topic) what if an app 'supports' audiobus - but doesn't do it very well, or it works fine on an Air2, but not very well on an iPad2 ?
wait,are you saying that even the option is gone to refund an app that is broken and not working on your device?Seriously??
That's what they need to do, instead of punishing customers with genuine complaints.
An app either works with Audiobus or it doesn't - if it crashes or freezes after being loaded some of the time then it doesn't. I have a few apps that do this, because they haven't updated the Audiobus API, so they should remove claims of compatibility they're still displaying until they've updated. If an app doesn't work very well on an iPad 2 then the developer should remove the 'compatible with ipad' tag at the bottom of the product description, and in the main details be clear about how well it's going to perform on older models. Most good developers do this already.
as far as I know, an app not working properly has never been an accepted reason by Apple for a refund.
I remember a case once where the app was actually not working and Apple refused the refund, saying something not working was an issue between me and the app developer and I should sort it out with them.
I'm sure the abuse of the system IS a real problem. I'm not entirely sure why Apple/Developers still haven't come up with something solid and secure that makes everyone happy. There's plenty of examples in the PC world. Get a trial app: either timed or with no ability to save your work and voila. In IOS world this could be done via IAP's.
Edit: LiveFx do this by running an audio message occasionally with their trial version and neosoul keys' trial pianos stop making a sound after 10 mins or so.
What @thesoundtestroom is suggesting is not a bad idea either. There should be a way of disabling the app if it isn't rightfully owned as soon as the device is connected to the internet and verification is possible. I remember when I first bought BM2 alongside another app I got a refund for the other app but somehow also BM2 got refunded. They were on the same bill so I didn't realise that had happened. About a year later I deleted the app and wanted to reinstall it but was greeted with the full price. I ended up calling Apple customer service complaining which eventually revealed I was in the wrong. The moral of the story is that I used an app for a year for free which shouldn't have happened. I bought BM2 back right away of course.
That wouldn't stand up in court - you pay Apple, not the developer. Issues with their suppliers (app developers) are their problem, not yours. If you buy a rotten apple from a greengrocer and ask for a refund they can't tell you to contact Cape Orchards of South Africa to get your 50p back.
A lot of marketplace sites try this one, and even list it in their T&C's. It doesn't hold any water though, your contract is with the company that accepts payment, not the supplier, and it's their responsibility that product descriptions on their website are accurate and don't mislead customers.
As the advert says. Simples! People are abusing the system. End of. Try a lite version if available or buy because you REALLY want to buy and not to test the app.
If the original poster runs a business, especially a software apps business, and sets up a system whereby people can just download an app and return it within two weeks but the download still continues to work, he will be bankrupt before he can say hello.
VSTs/AUs cost hundreds of £/$ but you can try a full working version for say 10 or 15 days before it craps out. However, you provide contact details to get a download so it is much easier to get a demo version and for the software to time out. iOS developers don't have that kind of buying/selling mechanism so if an app costs say £10 or whatever, please just buy it to support the developer as they have families to support as well.
i'm not getting into another discussion about iOS vs PC software pricing @FrankieJay. There is $$ in software development for IOS otherwise the market wouldn't be so saturated.
I never asked Apple to give me 2 weeks refund right, they did it themselves. My issue is with the pointless message I'm having to look at every time I purchase an app.
If the original poster (sorry @supadom) or any other poster sets up a business and sells products online that don't work as advertised at the point of sale then they have to provide a refund. By law.
It's up to the company taking payment to ensure that their business model is profitable. Since, aside from a bit of bandwidth and storage space, downloadable products don't cost the marketplace seller much to provide (as opposed to physical products which have associated shipping costs) the profits can be huge (as Apple can attest to, being one of the largest companies on the planet). It's easy money. Problem is the system that makes such big, easy profits is also easy to abuse, so they need to invest in technology that automatically removes rights to a downloaded product if a refund has been provided.
If the right to receive a refund is revoked then anyone can put up any old piece of crap for sale without fear of recourse.
@FrankieJay
I think no one here is suggesting iOS developers shouldn't make money.
But the way Apple handles the return policy is quite unelegant. Each time now I buy an app, I get an e-mail "this is a confirmation that you renounced your right to cancel the purchase"
this is basicslly saying "dear customer, you live in a country where you have certain customer rights, but luckily we found a way to undermine those rights. thank you."
The rotten Apple in a nutshell. Thank you, well said.
After reading this thread it seems Apples PR dept, is really pissing people off, consistently of late. M$oft used to hold that mantle.
@Supadom - I have to say the first time I saw that message, I thought to myself it didn't take long for Apple to see a pattern of fake buys and customers demanding refunds within 14 days. Now I just ignore the message as I realise people are abusing the system. I wouldn't get too hung up on that message popping up when you make a purchase. Remember it is not only music apps that we are talking about.
For example, I could be a designer who needs to edit loads of photos. I go into the App Store and buy Pixelmator to process my photos. I use the app, get my job done, get paid and still ask Apple for a refund. Now if a hundred thousand people behave in this way, you could begin to understand why this message keeps emerging almost from nowhere and onto your screen.
Personally, if I buy an app it is for keeps hence my previous reference to helping iOS developers. The big picture is to ensure these guys keep coming out with super quality apps. This "warning message" from Apple is a small price to pay for the joy of composing music. The sun is shining.
Why do you assume everyone asking for a refund is abusing the system?
Funny you should mention Pixelmator - I bought that for my Mac but it never worked, due to an incompatibility between the software and the graphics card in my Mac. It slowed down as you used it until after a few minutes it froze completely. They acknowledged the issue (lots of us complained), but couldn't fix it. I got a refund - does that make me a system abuser?