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Comments
Got it. Not saying I'd rather listen to Nirvana than "Last Splash." But apparently there are people who argue that George was the most talented Beatle!
Can't see how any argument could be made for that! McCartney was the best at his respective instrument, by a country mile. And as far as songwriting, well.. I love his Beatles material, and ATMP is a knockout... But it's spotty.
Kinda brings me back to the Breeders, tho. I consider Pod a record that puts anything in Nirvana's catalog to shame. By virtue of the lyricism, if nothing else. I feel like Kim brings equal parts Faulkner and Neil Young to her writing. I really mean that. Last Splash is ok, but the follow-up record, Title TK is amazing. There's a reason Albini keeps producing them for free. But I'm not trying to over-intellectualize it. They're just way better to me. I know I'm in the minority.
Good discussion, but it sounds a little like you may be in different phone boxes here, as regards criteria.
Cobain may not pass the literature test (is there one?), but he caught lightning in a bottle and that's an almost circumstantial thing (which may or may not have killed him, but that's a cruel aside). He caught the channel and held it for awhile, no small thing.
Cobain may not pass the literature test, but The Widow Cobain certainly does.
She's written some brilliant lyrics that stand with Lou Reed or Richard Hell.
She's a mess, though...
Yes!!!
I wore out 7 vinyl copies of Here Come The Warm Jets before the age of the CD. It may be my favorite record ever.
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Now you're out of the trees. Cobain was never an innovator, he repurposed the right sound at the right time. A time when the industry wanted it again.
As for your earlier point requesting links to those who have done work equal to or better than Eno, you know as well as I do that it's all subjective. Every single example would be subject to your opinion - valid as anyone else's, of course - and from what you've said here it includes commercial success. In other words, not a level playing field.
Further to illustrate this, some here may have heard of Ral Doner, a singer who sounded virtually indistinguishable from Elvis Presley, had the looks, etc.
https://youtu.be/pIbZvJXmSSg
Was he as good as Elvis, could he have been as successful. We will never know, because the great machine of the recording industry did not want to find out.
Another example springs to mind. Jeff Healey. Arguably, his live version of 'All Along the Watchtower' kicks the Hendrix version into the long grass. But Hendrix always gets the kudos, 'cause he was first to see the potential in Dylan's song. Doesn't mean he was the best, or that other guitarists have not equalled or surpassed him since.
Coming back to my Eno comment, while respecting him as an innovator, I've heard dozens of ambient works that I consider his equal or better. Some from folk here. But this is all just one man's opinion, and was only ever intended as such. So there is no point in me linking to works I like, only for you to say you prefer Eno.
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Again, MJ was who the industry wanted. It was never about artistic greatness, it was always about what would make the most money.
MJ had a truly great voice as a child, but was never as good in adult form. Indeed, he is equally remembered as a singer and as the plastic-faced baby dangler, embroiled in court cases concerning young boys. Even the fabled Moon Walk was actually done years earlier on UK TV by Jeffrey Daniels of Shalamar.
Gentleman, please.
I wonder if anybody would remember Nirvana if he didn't blow his head off.
The unplugged session was nice but they didn't play their own stuff, they played Bowie and meat puppets and stuff, which is kind of telling. And they had very bad timing, guitars and unwashed long haired hippies... I was shacking my booty to house and techno by that time.
I liked the freakshow MJ became and I liked fat, stoned Elvis in vegas. Troubled people are just more interesting.
Every Good Boy Deserves Fudge
I love ambient stuff, but not a massive fan of Eno. As for being an innovator - I'd pass that label to the bands he hung around with at the time, such as Cluster.
As for the app, I'm unlikely to spend thirty quid on something that has no sound samples, no vids, and isn't even listed on the devs out of date, amateur looking website.
A few smudgy screengrabs ain't gonna do it. Looks like the 'father of ambient' needs to step up his game.
By my calculations, Ral Donner was 13 when Elvis was doing this:
In other words he was first, and doing something that grabbed people's attention (yes, this was risqué for '56, for all you kids out there).
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You're missing the point. It doesn't matter who did it first. I'm pointing out a comparable talent.
But you wrote: "Was he as good as Elvis, could he have been as successful. We will never know, because the great machine of the recording industry did not want to find out."
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Exactly. As you know, Elvis didn't write his own material. So if the industry had wanted Doner to compete with him, it could've happened. Doner had the same tools as Elvis, but lacked the industry support.
So going back to the original point, I believe there are many musuc makers who are every bit as good as Eno, but don't have the fame or backing. Not, because Eno was so much better, but because he got there and claimed that territory.
I don't think he even did that, but a bit like Apple - he was canny enough to assimilate the best of what was going on around him, and had the resources and backing to repackage it to the public as his own thing.
That's not to knock what he's done, he has a successful style and is a clever bloke, but anyone thinking he did this first should listen to some 60/70's German electronic experimental music.
Saying all that I'd still buy the app if it wasn't such a silly price.
Yes, he brought the genre together, as it were, and packaged the result in a way that was more appealing than the sum of it parts.
Just as, with Elvis Presley, what Colonel Parker wanted was a white man who sang black. The fact that he was actually singing songs written mostly by middle-aged Jewish white men didn't matter.
What has his age (or inappropriate Elvis analogies) got to do with this release ?
Eno got me into ambient through such beautiful albums as 'The Pearl':
I'm not a fan of everything he's ever done, but he's still a primary influence to me. It's worth remembering that his ambient material was panned by the critics when it came out, but he stuck with it nonetheless and over the years, lazy music critics built up the whole 'godfather of ambient ' thing around him.
I think he's a really interesting bloke, one of the few artists who I'd actually like to meet and have a brew with.
On topic, here's a generative ambient app 'album' I recommend:
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/dreamstate-ephemeral-city/id940219509?mt=8
Rundgren - 1974
Having said all that, my favourite by far of Emo is his Before and After Science - I could listen to that almost to the end, and never seems to age. Funny how some stuff seems to age. I remember back in 2000, when usenet gave everyone more mp3s than they could hope to store, I re-explored my long-gone record collections, and eagerly listened to More Songs About Buildings and Food, and thought wtf? I didn't see what I first saw in it at all. Fast forward to now, it's a superb album as is the utterly turning-point ’77 album that preceded it. And tucked in between, there's Enzo's little single Kings Lead Hat (which is an anagram of Talking Heads, who he was about to go and produce, resulting in MSAB&F).
Nothing,
but nor have Warhol, Beckett, Nirvana or Michael Jackson.
Why not ask about that? lol
Because I didn't think they were relevant to the original post, your comment was just unnecessary - should he give it all up now just because he's pushing seventy ?
Yes @u0421793 his Talking Heads production work in itself, is something remarkable.
Does this answer your question?
So you're saying it benefited Elvis to be first. Hm, interesting... Because that's what I said.
Might as well throw Kandinsky in there as well.
Kandinsky lamented the whole rush to be first that he saw taking place in the art world. I think that rush was and is just inevitable with the merging of free market industry with art. If there is an opportunity to be taken, it will be took, and the god of mammon is smiling.
Pretty sure Cobain was well aware of the factor that timing played in his rise. The industry slapped the "Grunge" label on a small and budding music community in the Pacific Northwest, splashed their videos across MTV before MTV was the abomination it is now, a bunch of sad and aimless neglected kids latched on, and the rest is history.
+1
I happen to find Kandinsky's earlier "Blue Rider" period much more appealing than his later, more well-known design phase.
I had a blast of Elvis this morning. He is a pretty fucking special dude. Despite not being a songwriter.
How much was that björk app again?
10 bucks?
I don't know about this app now. It's more the kind of thing you do as art installation in a gallery. Now playing on Apple TV so you can feel arty too. Meh.
@JohnnyGoodyear's phrase "a cruel aside" is worth $40. They're just words, I know all of those words, I've used them all, but I've never put them together like that and certainly never as aptly.
Content of this record, er, aside, any fan of modern music that is unwilling to give Brian Eno his propers is either under informed or feeling internet fiesty. Taking issue with 'creator of ambient' is one thing, shitting on the entirety of his contribution to modern music to make a point is just silliness.
What do mean with his contribution to modern music?
Roxy music? music for airports? Another green world?
I can think of a lot of people that certainly had more influence on modern music.