Loopy Pro: Create music, your way.
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What if say, Ableton (or another big desktop DAW) drops an iPad version with those new powerful iPad.?
I think it’s just a matter of time...
My prediction if that happens: people will complain incessantly about feature [xyz] being left out of the iPad version, claiming it’s a ‘dumbed down’ version and saying they’ll wait for [other competitor] to finally come to iOS and do it properly.
Well, I was messing with iMaschine recently.. and the beauty of it is that you can transfer your projects to the desktop version.. iMaschine has not seen an update in years but imagine if it hosted Au/midi etc.. I think there is where the future is.. integration..
Nah, don't be so pesimistic, have faith in people !
/start of sarcasm/
ok, just people who doesn't have enough time to make music, just little bit time which is enough just for endless complaining about missing features and searching excuces why is somethig not possible
/end of sarcasm/
And as soon as they add support for AU, they lose support for transferring projects to desktop, which you thought was the beauty of it, so which is the future again ?
Doubt... it’s part of their marketing strategy...you may just buy imaschine for the hell of it... and end up getting the desktop version because of it.. It happened to me with iSpark.. BTW.. iSpark also needs an update..
I think this is a thing I don't particularly like - treating iOs as the "try it out" version before buying the full version on a "better" platform - increasingly the iPad is a much nicer environment to actually make music on , easier to move around the studio, less distractions, more focus on the actual music. I then often move over to a desktop DAW for final mixing, tweaking etc (largely because of the slate channel strip and izotope mastering stuff I use TBH)
I'll probably get in trouble for this when Adam finds out I did it, but I think it's an interesting conversation. One thing I know that is indisputable fact is that musicians always think that the music industry is much larger than it really is. Professional musicians and the tool-makers that serve them tend to have a more nuanced view, but we still look at the big companies and wonder where all those customers are.
We always forget that the big companies serve the educational and worship markets, and in general we don't. And schools, churches, piano lessons for tweens, and Indian casino cover bands are where the money is; a single visit to NAMM will show you this. Making things for experimental music is far more interesting, but will always be a corner case.
That being said, we do pretty well on iOS. We would approach the platform differently if it was all that we did; since all our iOS products except one are ported from the desktop, they necessarily don't take full advantage of the platform, and we don't really market specifically to iOS. On the other hand, we were very early to the game with respect to normal studio tools being available in AUv3. So that helps us along.
I would like to note that, as this screenshot proves, a single AUv3 will not pay anyone's salary, even if you lived in a developing nation. We have 16 apps in the app store, and some of them are of products are almost old enough to drink, in Europe anyhow. It took 38 man-years of full-time work to make these 16 products. It takes a minimum of a month to make a single simple product for one platform (assuming you already know how to do it), and another month of testing and tuning before you can sell one copy. A big product like Quanta or our upcoming Enso takes 6 to 10 months to develop end-to-end, from the first ideas to shipping the first unit.
With that said, here are the TOTAL (lifetime) units moved for the top 10 Audio Damage iOS products, from May of 2017 (when we put the first one in) to yesterday. The remaining six products are all around the 1.5K mark. Keep in mind that roughly half of all units were moved during sales. We had 6 of the top 10 paid positions for the entire week we ran the Black Friday sale, and that translated to almost exactly US$10,000 in real money in our bank account last week, or almost enough to cover our salaries and operating costs for two weeks of running Audio Damage. Our burn rate, for the entire company, is about $25,000 a month.
(I would like the record to reflect that I am in no way complaining. I love this business, and make plenty of money. I'm very glad you guys support our endeavors, and I wouldn't want to do anything else.)
Thank you so much for your input and perspective. You hit on a very key point that I articulated and am certain is the greatest area of opportunity to impact sales for indies...Reach
“We always forget that the big companies serve the educational and worship markets, and in general we don't. And schools, churches, piano lessons for tweens, and Indian casino cover bands are where the money is; a single visit to NAMM will show you this. Making things for experimental music is far more interesting, but will always be a corner case.
“
To add, I haven’t seen or heard of App Devs having liaisons to industry A&Rs to find out which relevant artists are using their apps, doing workshops or curriculum for educators, schools (how to use our app), etc
REACH REACH REEEEEEACH
This isn’t accomplished by luck. It takes people who understand branding, product placement, relationship building, copy writing...and BUDGET. Thus the OP.
Obviously this is just one factor but I greatly appreciate your openness @Chris_Randall and you guys rock btw! Keep up the good work.
Do you guys handle your own Marketing? Would you say marketing is planned initially or after apps are complete and do you have a percentage(don’t have to share) of budget allotted to Marketing (reach)...or does marketing expenditure depend on the app?
How important would you say Marketing is to your success 1-10? Obviously, it’s very important as you said 50% of sales come during sales but just curious as to how much goes into letting people know about new app launches.
Thanks again! 🙏🏾
I´m one day in the new year and spend already over a grand for music creation, lol.
So bring something new and amazing and i will buy it. I guess Drumbo is for sure in this category f.e.
I would happily pay 30-50 for it but knowing it might cost just 10 bucks or so maybe.
@WillieNegus That's where the hockey stick comes in to play. It's way easier to make money releasing a new product than it is to market an existing one. And the hockey stick sales curve is VERY severe in iOS. Much more so than we see in desktop-land.
On my Instagram account, I put up a video every single day (sometimes twice) using a simple iPad music rig: a 4x4 audio interface, plus occasional USB MIDI devices to a USB hub to a USBC media dongle to an iPad Pro. Basically the normal rig that anyone here would use. I run AUM on it, one of the most common iOS music apps, and use easy-to-find plugins from us and Bram for the most part. In 100% of the posts, there is at least one, if not several, questions along the lines of "what app is that?" or "how do you use the iPad?" or "how is audio getting in there" or "what sound is the iPad making?"
Nearly all of my Instagram followers are musicians. There's a lesson in there. This is a niche corner of a niche market.
What you're saying is, we need to bring iPad into the church and schools! I wouldn't think that this goal is unattainable, in fact I'm quite certain it can be done.
I know of a few churches who use pad apps with their band, it's not much but it's a start...
Many churches are set up in movie theaters and schools and other temporary spaces and a quick tear down and set up is crucial, iPad deff has solutions for this for the band's, they always have keyboards and synths to make you feel emotional while they play...
And schools, man iOS for music education at schools could be the future!
Let's make it happen
Also, charge more for these great apps, ...
I think the biggest hold back to charging more is that we can't demo them before spending money,... So a 5$ app isn't a big lose if I don't like it...25$-100s$ tho would be, if we can make more demos, I don't think charging more for apps would be bad...
Sure we won't be able to buy everything we see like we can now, but we can get the ones we need and want and focus on them rather than being overwhelmed by everything.
It’s also that the market simply expects apps to be cheap. Because... app. The perception of value is way off in app-land. When I released Noir people on Facebook were complaining about the high price level and say they’d wait for a sale. That’s a $10 app.
Mind, I’m not complaining. Just another curious observation I have to take into my calculations for making it all work. Which may mean not keeping on adding features to existing products year after year.
Sounds really sad a bit. But i wonder sometimes if developers really want/need these customers in a longer term....
Adding to products does not translate into more sales. It’s just for good karma most of the time.
When I overhauled Ruismaker and Ruismaker FM and added the standalone sequencers with full MIDI support etc. I did not get any extra sales. Not even a tiny blip on the radar. People enjoyed it, but they already owned the product (and setting up an IAP system to ‘sell’ the new features is more work than it’s worth).
So.. it makes a lot more business sense (and is way more fun) to work on new products than to keep building on an existing product if you’re operating in very tiny niche markets like ours.
I think that’s down to the platform, which is perceived as a more short-term solution than desktop: more iOS updates, which can affect the stability of hardware and longevity of software, shorter hardware lifespan, increased risk of abandonment, relatively higher hardware costs, Apple’s seemingly random development strategies, and of course limitations with file management and storage etc. make it less attractive to professionals.
Then there’s the added attraction of upgrades/crossgrades on desktop, and the potential to sell off your unused software.
For me the iPad provides a fantastic creative tool to work new ideas on, and the portability is a big plus. But I’m not as confident in it as a long term solution, compared to desktop alternatives. Saying that though I’ll thoroughly enjoy using it for as long as it’s here.
That is wild, 10$ is not too much for noir by any stretch, it's way under priced,..
Sometimes I wonder if the low cost of the apps makes the world look at them like they are no more than toys..
In some ways the low prices brings people in and then we are like wow this is amazing and I can do so much for so little!
Then in other ways when a community is used to paying 50$ or more for a great effect, then sees one for 5$, they might think, well that can't be good...
I don't know, I was really skeptical at first when I saw how inexpensive things were,..
Patterning and model 15 are what brought me to iOS initially.
Right. But what if a major artist/producer was seen using your apps on IG/YouTube? (They do use your apps and many others daily just no one really knows and they never really mention it because why would they?)
Wouldn’t that then effect which niches your app reaches?
Example... @Michael experience with Fallon. Fallon’s producer uses his apps and others DAILY. Michael was lucky to find out about it or...lucky the producer pitched it to Jimmy. What if he didn’t have to get lucky?
What if finding out which influencers use your apps was less luck and more about a strategy to know and place them? That would fall somewhere under a publicist or account managers responsibility at a major Corp. At hip hop labels we called it “poppin Tags”.
What if a major influencer or mega famous drummer launched Noir for @brambos and did a sneak peak video like SoundtestRoom Doug to show it off to their bazillion followers...would folks whine to the influencer about the price like they do to Bram? Doubt it.
Fashionova, Puma, Kylie Lip Filler and everything from junk to great products are sold by influencers. It’s much cheaper than traditional advertising and wayyyy more effective. It’s also easier to accomplish.
When launching one of my vape products...I had a few strippers I met at Magic City in atl create a iG profile and take sexy pics for 2 months until they got 300k followers. Then I switched the page to the vape brand and launched products. Didn’t cost me anything.
I do it for clients and my daughter now builds up IG pages and sells em because she’s pretty, it’s easy and profitable.
That’s just one simple example but there a million ways to attract influencers or build influence on social media. Many people think it’s luck to go viral...most times it isn’t. Either takes talent, alotta time or budget.
Not suggesting I’m Mr Know it all about this topic or that it translates to Music Apps but i think it would. It translates to everything else why wouldn’t it?
Making things cool and sexy is how to sell shit now and in the future. I think it’s always been this way it’s just easier and cheaper to do today.
I’ve done it launching several of my vape brands, a cyber security brand and most recently...legal cannabis brands. Didn’t work as well for cyber security for obvious reasons. Just ain’t nothing cool about it no matter what i do. I could have had naked bitches playing with the app on Pornhub and no one would click.lmao
I digress...
Influencers and trendsetters typically determine what products are cool and sexy....not so much the people that create them.
Nike executives and designers don’t show off their sneakers for a reason. They find cool people to do that because that’s what influences consumer behavior.
Not only that. While an app might sale better for 5 dollar and you got more customers, they expect the next app to be also cheap and yet they lurking for a 50% sale. I just ask me if developers higher their prices and „loose“ casual customers, if it would be better in a long term. Means a smaller but more loyal customer base willing to pay more because they might better understand the value of these tools.
(Of course value is in the eye of the beholder).
That’s sad.. sure would like custom scales on Scaler..
@WillieNegus so yeah - that's how it's done and you aren't wrong (although I wouldn't be comfortable using some of your techniques - just from a personal point of view - I recognise that they work and I'm sure you are just being pragmatic - just my take)
I guess the big issue is how do any of us devs get there from here - I'm no longer green about marketing - been learning it the hard way and of late from professionals but it's a full on job. I guess as well none of us are going to say "oh let's do a profit split" because as you've seen - 1/2 of bugger all is still bugger all ;-)
It feels as well as what really needs marketing is not any individual app but iOS music making as a whole - grow the whole market place and bring prices up. There are very few people plugging away at it
@Chris_Randall and @brambos thank you for sharing your real world experiences with us here. I have, appreciate, and use all of the apps you’ve created. I hope more people get into creating music with iOS which could also have the side effect of providing more developers with income especially for a very niche market like ours.
My experience has been that even the music specialists in the Apple Stores do not have any significant knowledge about iOS music creation apps or workflows.
I totally agree with your last premise. When iOS music making becomes something widely seen as cool or beneficial to do...I believe app sales will go up.
PS...no offense taken about my “practices”. My out of the box tactics are what I owe every success I have to date and trust...I’ve had partners/clients run out of meetings after hearing some of my ideas.lol
Connecting with buyers is much like creating music and connecting with audiences...it should be intimate and particular. Gotta be open to approaching things relevant to what you’re selling and to whom.
If you aren’t brash or edgy...you probably wouldn’t target younger demographics. If you are targeting more mature demographics you probably want to be sophisticated and classy etc...
It's also worth noting that just fighting Apple is almost enough to make it not worth it to make iOS-only apps. If you only have a single IAA/AUV3 combo, you have to have a fairly large stack of iOS products (along with the inevitable Mac) just to make something that won't immediately get a bunch of "duznt wrk on m4 iPhone X" 1-star reviews.
Let's say a Mac Mini, at least one iPad Pro, one normal iPad, and at least two iPhones are necessary to make a "real" AudioUnit V3 that you can charge a reasonable amount of money for. That right there, along with the $99/yr ADC fee and the 30% vig, is your operating cost before you even write one line of code. Call it $2500 if you're careful and buy refurbs. So you have to sell 714 units of a $5 app before you see a single dollar of profit. If you look at my chart above, we're one of the more popular AUv3 devs, so... it just doesn't math out.
so what do we do about it then? (apart from supporting Doug at soundtest battling away single handedly ;-) )
But yeah am a fan of action not talking so is this something we can all as a community do something about? is this something that needs money investment (might be in the realms of possibility in the next year or so but not right now) or ?
Yikes. I saw where Netflix just cut Apple out of that 30% vig which was almost a cool Billy ($800m/yr)
@brambos I guess the cure for the "Updates don't bring sales" problem is: use updates only for critical fixes, and instead keep working on new features in the backyard for a year or two, and then just release a new app "2.0". And hope people aren't pissed
@analog_matt , @brambos and @Chris_Randall so cool of you to share your sales data. Since we are sharing, I just checked and I'm on 5988 units since releasing at the end of June which I'm very happy with.
I've gradually raised the price from £3 to £6 since then after implementing the missing features (AUv3 support, MIDI and state saving/presets). The minimum viable product approach seems to be a good strategy for an unknown indie dev such as myself. I've observed the most significant boost in sales happen when:
1. an influential artist posts on insta using the app
2. app is featured by youtubers such as @thesoundtestroom , @jakoB_haQ and @djpuzzle (so thank you guys!)
Android version is currently in beta so that should be interesting (could go either way). VST is also in final stages, no idea what is in store for me there. But whatever happens from here on, it's been one of the toughest, most rewarding and damn exciting things I've ever done in my life. I still get a kick from seeing people post in social media using my app! It's worth it for that alone!
reading all this, i have more and more bad feeling about future of ios music apps... mostly regarding big apps like DAWs which needs extreme amount of work... if things will not go better, i'm afraid that sooner or later devs of existing DAWs will give up for next updates...
which is totally not cool and not sexy...