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Comments
I think the American public hasn’t been able to collectively get it’s act together to raise its expectations for this or other administrations either. Perhaps during this time we’ll reflect upon just how sustainable our current behavior is in the long run rather than pushing everything so far and so fast that our civilization is stretched so thin that one virus can bring it all down to its knees because we’re asked to stay home for several weeks and we could run out of toilet paper and die without clean underwear.
Sure. Sometimes you'll voice an opinion and find out many disagree.
Can you back up the use of "error". Usually people use numbers (you can question them) but using them is not wrong. That's pretty common for "forecasting" the future. It's also called estimating and as you suggest. The number may not prove to be accurate... in fact they may be off significantly. But it would be
hard to expect the numbers of inflections to do anything but go up. All we can do is focus on slowing there rate of infection with positive rewards for getting that right. But at the expense of a lot of status quo economic activities. But those losses get weighed against the expenses of massive healthcare costs.
Certainly a start washed potential virus down the drain. More washing more rerouting danger. OK. More number flows and results.
I think this is where yo lost the audience. I see a lot of people I trust trying to cause enough concern to change behaviors and bend the infection rate curve down.
So, you have been heard and you make some good points. Not critical points for me in this case.
They are focused on dividing and vilify "others".
This post dialed a lot of your aggressive approach down and you got through to be heard. You still missing the key point IMHO. Questioning all sources of information just leaves you using the information you started with: based on life lived and nothing more. We can all listen, evaluate and communicate based upon new information. Do you know why soap is so effective on a corona virus? Why 20 seconds of contact with soap matters? I didn't and now I do. Shit like that. Stuff that won't just fall out of the act itself.
It takes lab equipment.
Sorry for the delay. I'm at work trying to figure some alternate workflows so people can work from home.
@InfoCheck I think your points regarding preparedness are definitely one pillar of this issue. Be it something recent or longstanding, citizens deserve better from their elected officials & those they appoint. Apathy has not been our friend. There are plenty of issues that need to be better addressed in gov't. Part of my response regarding the media was to highlight that inappropriate use of data/language only serves the fanatics. It's not only useless to most folks but counterproductive regardless of where we stand politically.
Thank you for your measured reply.
@LinearLineman I've read enough of this forum to know how you feel about this topic. Some of your points I find reasonable, others not so much. I can say that the not so much type of things you say are usually your subjective analysis that includes an emotional response additional to the information you wish to convey. Whether or not I agree with the particulars is not important to me. What is important is that we allow for others to participate meaningfully despite thinking that they are"the enemy" & there is no further debate. Insisting your subjective conclusion on others, regardless of their position, is never fruitful & usually comes across a bit despotic. After all, we are under no obligation to attack others. This is an internet forum, not a killing field. One may enjoy rationalizing that they are "the enemy" and only their destruction will suffice but that line of thinking dismisses all civilized tenants and makes barbarians of us all. Lastly, you state that
"Trump is not given any slack because he has lost credibility with innumerable lies and actions."
I'm convinced that you think that is the case but I would suggest that you allow room for some diversity of opinion before weaponizing your viewpoint to be used against others. I'm sure you don't intend that to be the case but you do sometimes radiate that vibe.
Thank you for also not engaging in personal attacks on me.
@espiegel123 The extent to which we are able to gather information is critical to any healthy society. If, for any reason, the Press, whom we rely on to inform us, is acting in bad faith, no matter their philosophical grounds to justify it, it becomes a hindrance to the population at large. Misinformed populaces fall prey to chaos rather quickly. See all of human history for details. Two wrongs never make a right.
I've been struck by the quality of your knowledge & your willingness to help others on this forum. I've benefited from your input on music here. When it comes to the political you seem different; less willing to help & more anxious to make your points. That's just my limited understanding of some of your behavior here. I'm fully aware that in reality you are a much more nuanced individual, as is true of each of us. Thank you for your reasonable reply.
@everyone else who cares: The particular misquote that I took issue with was just one example of what many people are starting to see as normalized in culture. Regardless of position, it is counterproductive to the forward movement of everyday folks. The idea being that one is justified in bringing down those you oppose by any means necessary. BOTH sides of the political spectrum engage in this aberrant practice. That includes disingenuous uses of facts & analysis which instead should be offered as fairly as possible. Trump made a "Both/And" statement not an exclusionary "Either/Or" statement in this instance. Some dishonest and partisan members of the Press tried to mislead the public and/or gin up hatred. Neither of those tactics/motives are acceptable to me. No matter where you are in your life journey, I believe they should not be acceptable to any of us. There's plenty legit to complain about. The Trump admin's current position on conservation, for example, is very much lacking. The trophy hunting and such. I find it barbaric. By the same token, there are things they have gotten right. I won't mention any that I have in mind for fear of reprisal so suffice it to say that even a broken clock is correct twice a day. Things aren't where they need to be in our societies by a long shot but adding disinformation or politically gaming data will not get any of us closer to a peaceful & sustainable future. Like it or not, we are all in this together.
@ExAsperis99 I appreciate you taking the time to clarify what you previously stated.
@LSV, the only person I have attacked here has since been banned from the forum. He was an attacker and I gave back appropriately. I have no reason to attack you. I have kept silent and apolitical for many a moon. This thread is defined as rants and I think I am inbounds ( most of the time). I also think there is room for emotion coupled with sensible argument. This is not a science forum. That some of us express things emotionally is in keeping with the artistic nature of many who are drawn here.
I believe the Washington Post has fact checked the president. Last I heard he was approaching 15,000 easily proven misstatements. Is there any other way to describe this other than blatant mendacity? Or at least an inability to retain facts? In either case he his not fit to be amongst the most powerful people in the world. Are we supposed to believe our eyes and ears or, as the prez wishes, listen only to his truths?
As far as insisting my objective conclusions... how can I insist that? I can not force anyone to do anything. By expressing myself fully and guided by my own star I say what I am thinking and feeling, not what anyone else should be thinking. I can no more control anyone’s opinions than you can. Your opinions, I imagine, will not be changed one whit by anything anyone says here. Yes, there may be clarifications so there is no misunderstanding, but most intelligent people arrive at their conclusions, as you have, thru a lot of sincere thinking. Things people say rarely can change that. Only events and actions can demonstrate the truth or incorrect conclusions people live by.
I went searching in that page for the date and from a comment I saw it was 12 years ago that there was concern about the idea of a global pandemic from a "bird" flu and this was the first comment:
That was a fear based reaction that someone might take the prospect seriously and voiced in anger.
It has been believed for many years that a virus could surface to become an unmanageable pandemic and the respirator is the last line of defense if there is no pharmaceutical preventative.
The triangular tension between fear, caution and science continues and I'm hoping we all learn to value
science and those that learn to apply it for the service of humanity.
It is your prerogative to conclude as you see fit using one or many sources as your guide. You use words here like "believe" and "heard that there are 15,000" etc. Again, it's your right to use anything from facts to rumors to magical thinking to form your opinions. I'm not a fan of the "all eggs in one basket" approach to sourcing but what you say might be factual. If you would care to post the list you mention so that others can analyze your claim, it may well prove to be a teachable moment.
We are supposed to be charitable, even, and some would say, especially, with those with whom we disagree. It's exceedingly difficult to do when it's most needed, I have found. That last statement is simply a general one, not directed at any particular individual. I think my critique on this thread is more about tactics than positions.
To be clear, I thanked you for not attacking me, not because I'm under the impression that you attack others often but rather because I had previously been attacked and wanted to express my appreciation for your considerate delivery. Many times our words carry unintended meaning for those who hear them. The error many times comes from the hearers own bias & preconceived notions. It may have seemed to me that you brought more heat than light to several encounters you had here. I meant no offense & may have mistaken your choice of words for hostility.
@LSV
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html
It's really a nice thing to add a disclaimer to a "fact remembered" and @LinearLineman did that but
it took me about 5 minutes to check the public record.
It's hard to find a US President that could patch this record.
The Washington Post has been closer to the Washington turf and keeps a more precise tally:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/12/16/president-trump-has-made-false-or-misleading-claims-over-days/
I get that you and a leg segment of the american public are willing to look past these character flaws because he has made changes to the US government that are in your interests. I get that. You have a right
to that opinion.
But I do believe that people are ready for a change at the top and you'll see a lot of repairs made to
our shared government in response to what has happened since 2016. I hope you can accept that too.
There's a reasonable amount of concern that this regime may refuse to allow the election to run as intended if he believes he will loose and that is another level of fear that the majority do NOT want to transpire. I hope you agree that that would not be good for a democracy. A fair election must matter and be accepted as final.
@LSV ... this is what WP offers. I appreciate your understanding that I respect considered opinion.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/
I am just an idiot so whatever but here is a thing about stuff...
https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/melbourne-scientists-make-major-coronavirus-breakthrough/news-story/7bc7d9ebd54ef4dfa0aa4483855c3669
I don't think anyone here has claimed to be an expert virologist. A number of us have shared articles either written by experts or summarizing the work of experts. I've run all the articles I've posted by people with some expertise in medicine or public health. None of the material I've summarized originated with me.
If you spot errors , please bring them to our attention. I'd like to know if I have posted something erroneous or or made a mistake.
I don't know of anyone who has claimed to be an expert in this thread.
I have seen a number of people here attack the notion that experts know anything but none have seen fit to demonstrate flaws in the articles people have cited beyond saying they don't believe them .
@LSV, I keep thinking about this and want to express a little more about Trump’s character. I spent the first fifty years of my life as a New Yorker, ultimately moving into Manhattan from Queens. Though I wasn’t intensely keeping up with Trump’s escapades, bankruptcies, racist actions toward low income families... still what stands out is his large ad ( full page, I think) condemning the, as of then, unconvicted Central Park Five and calling for their execution. Now, decades later, after serving years in prison, some of these convicted “Murderers” have been totally exonerated ( now who is it who loves that phrase?) and the corruption behind their incarcerations revealed. Yet Trump has no remorse or second thoughts. He merely says they were convicted so obviously, even though “totally exonerated” they are guilty and deserved to be executed. No apologies. No regrets for tearing up innocent people’s ( and their families) lives. Trump was taught by Roy Cohn never to admit he was wrong or ever apologize. Why, after he was convicted for discrimination against low income families in buildings his father owned, he and Cohn claimed victory.
Not many days go by when I don’t read about another scam Trump has perpetrated on the public. The last was Trump Supplements. For $150 you sent in a urine sample and received “Customized” vitamins.
Point of fact: there never has been a valid urine test for vitamin deficiency. Trump never vetted the company. He sold his name like a prostitute sells a fuck. Only he did the fucking... of the public.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-vitamins-were-fortified-with-bs
You see, LSV, Trump is a bad man., who would have been indicted were he not president. His myriad schemes and actions condemn him without polemics from such as me. He has no morals, no ethics, no conscience, no empathy, no capacity for understanding anything but his own self interest and no bone spurs. He has no vocabulary, a good fifth grader could easily surpass him in putting thoughts together ( just listen “ objectively” when he speaks. Everything is beautiful or nasty). He was not always so incoherent. In fact, in his younger years he was rather eloquent. But not now. His capacities have deteriorated for all to see and yet he is CIC with the nuclear codes at his disposal. He has no hesitation to besmirch American heroes, Supreme Court Justices, Judges, the jury process, precedents, Rule of law and democratic institutions.
As, in retrospect, the great George Bush once stammered... “Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice...
Well... that isn’t gonna happen”. I will always be a New Yorker and every New Yorker who grew up with Trump knew him for what he was. A narcissistic conman who lost millions of inherited and given wealth from a father arrested in 1927 in a KKK brawl with police. A man who mentored under Joseph McCarthy’s thug lieutenant, Roy Cohn. “Where’s my Roy Cohn!” Trump lamented.. until he got him with Bill Barr,
I don’t expect to change your mind, my friend. You say you are nonpartisan. But facts is facts. Maybe a few are incorrect, but the Mt Everest of shambling misdeeds on Trump’s part speak volumes.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/fred-trump-arrest-1927-kkk
We know that the birthrates and the divorces will go up as a result of this Covidity. I wonder whether suicides will rise or fall? I believe during wartime there is enough real dread that more people part with the existential kind and its personal consequences. When we have to fight to live we less commonly choose to die. I wonder, is that right?
Hello @McD
I'd like to ask you a question that should help illustrate a larger point. Have you ever been arrested with Susan Sarandon & Sister Helen Prejean for crossing the line at the School of Americas while protesting the American government's use of terrorism abroad? I have. Twice, in fact. I'm also an Air Force veteran. I hope that you are able to process the seeming dichotomy of those two statements.
I'm not mentioning this for any reason other than to point out that your broad brush characterization of me couldn't be further from the truth. I'm an Independent who has voted for people in both parties over the years. I realize that Tribalism is very popular today & saying something good or not piling on to the current focus of disdain can be a tricky road. Perhaps, that's why you mischaracterized me by including me in that group.
I choose not to engage in vitriol, as I find it childish and somewhat a sign of personality disorder. My opinion is that many people today refuse to see any nuance in the political arena. Just black OR white. My guy good. Their guy bad. I find most political discussions tedious. Few people are interested in being persuaded and they prefer the comfort of their confirmation bias. Some even go as far as to personally attack another in the most vile ways simply because they hold to a different opinion. Not saying you are doing this but if you read back in the forum you will find the characters who have done just that. Again, this applies to both sides of the spectrum, in my experience.
I realize this doesn't speak to the specifics of your links and such. I just wanted to be clear about not wanting protracted debate about politics on this forum. I've played music seriously since I was handed a violin at 8 years old. I didn't think I could make it as a serious musician so I relegated my skill/desire to an avocation went on to study and acquire a degree in Broadcast Journalism, which started with Armed Forces Radio & Television & then into commercial radio and tv. Along the way I ran a restaurant outside Chicago for six years and worked in a bookstore for some time. Currently, I'm back in news & wondering why. I come here because it makes me feel good to sharpen what few skills I have as a musician. So forgive me but I have no interest in further political discussion. I asked @LinearLineman to post a link/links for the benefit of others.
I didn't post here so that I could defend myself from sweeping generalizations that don't speak to who I really am but twice today someone on this forum accused me of being a very different person than who I am. I am a stranger to both and stated little to nothing about specific political leanings I may or may not have. Yet, there it was.
As I see it, this is a music forum and is at it's best when music related topics are discussed. I understand the argument for Off-Topic but I simply disagree with having these sorts of political threads that tend to the worst in folks. I have neither the time nor the inclination to get into the weeds about politics here. I hope you can see that I've not given any specific facts about where my political stance falls on the spectrum beyond a few examples. I merely took issue with what I see as disingenuous behavior (on both sides as I stated) with a misleading misquote. I simply felt it necessary to address tactics as they affect all of us but have no intention of parsing out anyone's personal politics.
To the extent that music is discussed I will say that I find your knowledge & willingness to help rather extraordinary & I thank you for you participation in that area.
@LinearLineman I respect your right to your opinions. I do. Please see my reply to @McD
Thanks.
I'm now off to the Drambo thread to eagerly await it's imminent 2025 release.
And not for nothing but I was born in Mineola hospital on Long Island. My parents are from Brooklyn and Astoria. I lived on East 14th Street in the mid-Eighties for a spell. Cheers!
I wish you good hunting @lsv. It was good of you to reveal some of your background.
@LSV Thank you for your articulate and detailed response. It's gives me a better sense of you and your beliefs. I also try to judge people by their words and actions without bias. But I can err. @Linearline's passion about ethical behavior serves to help me understand his sometimes outrageous statements.
He specifically avoided the politics of Covid-19 until this thread which was set up as a forum to vent rage and frustration. In that context he released a massive backlog of rage.
That' what this thread is for... get that out. But this thread ideally should be treated like a "Psychiatric Group" where we can all give vent to our frustrations and traumas without judgement.
So, if we crossed the line into judgement please review your writings and see if you triggered the replies with some judgements. As I recall you comment was restrained but still was probably out of line for
"group". You can make the decision for your own benefit and either set the record straight as a stand up guy who may have also been triggered by opinions that frustrate you. The 15,000 lies detail has been documented here and that could be addressed. It's also typical for conflicts here to just be left to roll away.
But the karma lives on. I have seen @linearline admit to having erred when approached with civility. He has a good heart but his passion about ethics and courtesy is profound and fundamental.
There are also pitfalls with the nature of the written word and many can read and hear a voice that isn't really what the writer intended or sounds like in person.
Please keep injecting your point of view into the dialogue here. These Off Track threads are not a favorite of many who come here for the music details and can live perfectly well without political or topical news threads living at the top of page 1 for weeks.
But this pandemic thing is unprecedented in my lifetime and an opportunity to vent, rage, learn, care, engage, inform and influence without leaving the couch. And pound for pound there are fewer jerks here than any forum I'm aware of. It's a little bit of the corner bar where everyone is there for the band and not to get drunk or brawl.
@LinearLineman
I see many truths in things you've said, but I also think I'm hearing genuine frustration intermixed. And venting frustrations is what I think this thread is for.
I get frustrated with the current "State of the world" also. But, over the years, I discovered that the stress that frustration causes me, is very unhealthy. I've worked on developing my own personal "therapeutic techniques", that I can implement to help myself put the "negative energy" into more positive pathways of thought. I try to "understanding the cause of the frustration" .... rather than.... "react to the cause of the frustration".
Over time, I've learned that "for me" the best method I have to mitigate the frustration, is to research the crap out of whatever I believe may be the cause of it. This method helps me "retrain" my mind to prevent my thoughts from congregating around some-thing I usually have zero control over, and instead of "waisting" energy being frustrated by the thing I probably have no control over. I can then put that energy to use doing something I find enjoyable.... Researching why the world is the way it is.... And why people sometimes behave the way they do.
I just wanted to that share with you.. A thing I do that helps me coupe with aspects of "the world" that bother me.
If you'd like me to share some of my "research" about the nature of the world, just ask.
But I promise it will consist of a multiple long analyses encompassing eons of world history. In-depth explorations of human nature. Speculations regarding the influence of environment over gene expression relative to psychological development, and quite a few theories about the adaptation of the human mind by process of neuroplasticity in response to specific categories environmental stimuli. Amongst other stuff....
@McD, I appreciate the mixed blessing of your kind words, and they are true. I held my tongue quite nicely.
However, the opulent and unconscious malevolence of Mr. Rackersr could not go unaddressed in my book. Most espouse no personal attacks... and I usually agree, but this is a guy who revealed that he believes Oprah is engaging in child sex trafficking in tunnels beneath her house... and, it goes without saying, that the Jews are at the bottom (no pun intended) of it all. Now, there is a personal fucking attack. And about my dear friend, Oprah. There is a moment where civility must be subordinated to unmasking a cancer in our mists. No, not a cancer... a virus. I am unapologetic about my comments laid at Rackersrs doorstep. I regret going round and round with @robertreynolds, but we seem to do that. Beyond that I apologize to any who I mistakenly put in my crosshairs.
Additionally, I am unrepentant about the con man in chief. To walk back my comments would be equivalent to George Orwell saying “Four feet bad, two feet good” when it comes to a sheep’s opinion of itself. Trump is a Baaa-ad man. We deserve better... maybe.
@horsetrainer, thanks for your remarks. You have earned my respect from your first postings. However, tho I am far from a conscious being, I have done my own share of research into what the hell is going on on this crazy plane of existence... a state that many gurus and spiritual people describe as perhaps one of the lowest places in the universe. Is that true? Perhaps.
More importantly, like the gentle Rabbi who raged at an audience about something or other... when asked by a student how could such a gentle man be so angry and lose control of his feelings... he replied, anger is a tool I use when necessary. Now I am no Rabbi, but I am an artist... in fact a dramatist of sorts. I use emotion as a tool to express myself. And sometimes anger is the perfect tool. I am not very attached to it, tho I do realize I may get some harshness back. No problem. That is fair play and it does smart.
But if I cause some smarting then I should accept some pain in return.
For those who believe that civility should be unrelenting, I am sorry, I disagree. Taking a knife to a gunfight is not always the wisest choice. Do I have an obligation to be 100% civil before an audience of untold thousands and a few regular posters? I am breaking no law and all I owe any reader is my honest opinion, no matter how I choose to present it,
Look, in William Golding’s Lord of the Flies the character Piggy was killed by a group of boys no longer subject to the rules of adults. Why? Because he was weakish, wore glasses and had asthma... and he was the “other”.. actually a rather gentle and civil creature. In Cambodia Pol Pot annihilated anyone who wore glasses. Civility, in other words, has a way of collapsing under stress. And no amount of polite talking can stop the death marches Or the genocide. So, yes, be civil when you can, but test it’s limits from time to time. As Emerson so wisely wrote, and I often repeat... “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.” (this includes my own consistencies) Now that is fucking inflammatory, but it didn’t stop Ralph Waldo from saying it. And I am not accusing anyone who is still here of being foolish or having a small mind. I am just trying to convey that anger, tho it can be messy, can have it’s uses and place. ‘Splain me how I am wrong. I will listen.
Fair enough. I agree that this forum offers many more positive experiences than negative. Well said.
Some of what you wrote is addressed in my previous reply.
I admit it. I love the smell of napalm in the morning; yet, my intention is to leave a clean footprint wherever I choose to step, in the hopes that others will see who I really am so they can know who they really are in relation. A Personal Truth for Everyone? A Universal Truth that's all mine? Something like that.
I strive for harmony which allows for contentment & the pleasing effect of peace amongst the ordnance. Unlike personal politics on music forums though, my own shortcomings are something I'll gladly parse out. It's mandatory in order to stave off rank hypocrisy. I'll attend to a re-read and requisite reflection.
"To handle a language skillfully is to practice a kind of evocative sorcery." From the hand of a decadent poet. If it's true for him it's true for all of us. Not to mention that we're attempting to generate understanding at great distances without benefit of at least half of the usual feedback needed to give accurate & appropriate responses. I find there is a lot of faith practiced on the internet.
Thanks for the hospitality.
I see most here as passionate & well-intentioned. There are a few very exceptional folks, too.
We're all trying to figure things out best we can. I appreciate the consideration and thoughtfulness that can exist here.
@LSV, amen, brother.
60,000 people met at Cheltenham Races only a few weeks ago, and now we should avoid contact with each other. Who was in control then, and who is in control now?
I went for a hospital Xray yesterday for my hip, and if I didn’t have my stick I would have run away down the corridor. A man being pushed in a bed by staff all wearing masks and the head man was wearing Darth Vader mask ventilator and plastic face sheild.
Madness!
This is it, but worry not, trumpet is history, how many years has his hostility amongst the United States or around the world made cooperation with anyone, any better, no he is the force of chaos and disorder.
Just readed interesting info about my country (Slovakia). We are world superpower in production of lung ventilation (not sure if it is correct name, i mean that tech which vital for sever Covid cases). Atm we have ready 3x as much as Italy (and we have only around 5.000.000 citizens), and our company "Chirana Stara Tura" which is producing those devices supplies with them whole world.
Small moment when i'm proud about my country
Just the world needs Behringer to clone them.
If you check out the charts on action taken, the UK is doing the least of almost any country in the world. We’re like a rogue, third world state gone mad.
On a more positive note though, Johnson appears to be on the verge of abandoning his disastrous sacrificial ‘herd’ plan, and now listening to experts and a proper lockdown is on the cards.
On a less positive one, I spent last night talking to my sister on the phone, recovering from lung cancer, about organising her funeral arrangements.
Dark times.
It’s sad reading, if I make it through this, I’m going make funeral arrangements for this fucked up system.
Sorry to hear that Monzo, I have a close friend doing exactly the same with her mother right now, she's falling to bits...