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Someone in this thread has suggested that this is similar or less of a big deal compared to SARS, and that needs to be corrected.
The SARS outbreak of 2003 infected about 8,000 people and killed 774. (With death rate nearly 10%, yes this was a big deal). https://www.cdc.gov/sars/about/fs-sars.html#outbreak
This COVID-19 pandemic is far worse, it has killed 7,000 people globally and before long that number will pass the total number of people who even had SARS infection.
I actually find this to be following logic off a cliff. I appreciate the reasonable approach to any and all information, but not all information is worth engaging. A guy claiming there's a vast conspiracy of left-wing child traffickers (with their headquarters in the basement of a pizzeria that does not have a basement) does not deserve being engaged.
Maybe initially these claims were worth looking into? It's certainly a startling assertion. But once you realize it's a baseless conspiracy theory, you need to cut it off.
As Garry Kasparov has said when asked how he can possibly know what move to make when there are a nearly infinite number of moves on a chess board: a master knows that a vast majority of moves are not even worth considering.
But as to the suggestion that we engage and help these damaged people? I agree that's worthy, but I don't know how. It's much easier to ridicule, and I have been guilty of that. Helping is hard.
It really is quite incredible the number of comments I read online, that still say ‘at least it’s not Corbyn/Labour’. Yeah, who’d have wanted him in, with his plans for massive investment into the NHS and public services? He’d only gone and wasted tax payers money on hospitals and stuff. We need an incompetent, lying, corrupt, racist idiot in charge!
I never fail to be taken aback by the total, utter stupidity of some of the general public. self-harm on a National scale.
One of the slogans the Tories were throwing around during their campaign was that ‘it’s’ time for a change’. BUT YOU’VE BEEN IN GOVERNMENT FOR A DECADE, HOW IS VOTING TO KEEP YOU IN, GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING!!!!!!
Anyway, that’s enough venting for tonight, and no, I won’t be engaging with comments from Tory/Brexit supporters, as it’d be as constructive as teaching the dirt on my boots to whistle Beethoven.
Yeah, I actually love working from home. If it wasn’t for the Mrs and Jnr coming and going, I probably wouldn’t even get this virus. It’d just be me left standing when the rich emerge from their bunkers.
With a big old axe in my hands.
I tried to engage him in a discussion of the merits. He wasn't interested. I would go so far as to say that his opening remarks indicated a lack of interest in positive engagement. That's fine that's his right. As I said, I was sorry that the thread got deleted because I was interested in seeing what sort of defense he would have for his ideas.
In my opinion, asking someone to justify their beliefs or explain the basis is part of engagement. I am skeptical of his ideas but quite willing to let him try to justify them, and I am even interested. Critiquing and questioning each other's reasoning in good faith is how we improve our ideas.
I did not get the sense that he was interested in a reasoned discussion. The guy in that video, I suspect, has no interest in listening to someone with a different view of the world. I have seen many attempts by people to positively engage with the QANon folks. I have yet to hear of a QAnon believer who changed their opinion based on reasoned discussion. And that is probably because they did not arrive at their belief system as the result of some rational analytical process.
But maybe I am wrong. And I am open to discussion/debate. Good faith debate is a good way to demonstrate the strength or weaknesses of an argument.
The group is opposed to vaccination so if you are someone who believes vaccines are effective, seeing groups like this grow would be a concern. I agree 100% that trying to convince such groups to change is extremely challenging. If there are people who have insight into why people join such groups, the information could be used as part of an effort to try and slow or reverse their growth. Perhaps none of us here would have the interest or skills to attempt such a feat, but hopefully there are others who are.
Somebody needs to take Robert Peston's twitter account away from him. That man's a menace.
I just forced myself to watch the entire video that the guy posted.
The video he posted was not primarily related to vaccination -- it states as fact that Oprah Winfrey is part of some sort of pedophile ring with tunnels under her house, that New York City schools were closed to prevent kids from being taken hostage, that Jews have a lot of mine that is used for human trafficking and that they have a huge (literally) underground infrastructure that they use to get away with their crimes. He claims that the coronavirus is nothing more than a cold -- that it is literally the same virus as the cold virus. He talks about the country being controlled by "pedophile elites".
This is not simply a vaccine-skeptical group. I found it pretty nauseating.
I won't post a link to the video as I don't want to give it more publicity.
but why?... what is it about these people that there should be a campaign of help for them, nobody is trying to help isis, why these people?
News media are reporting that most of the SF Bay Area is about to be under shelter-in-home restrictions.
They've been issued: https://cmo.smcgov.org/sites/cmo.smcgov.org/files/20200316 HHS 6CoPHOrder -- FINAL.pdf
You and a couple others on here really do get a buzz being condescending ......
Your so impressed at your own intelligence........
I feel debating or discussing anything with you will do nothing other than fan your ego ..
I have 46 years on this planet , 20+ of those living and working abroad .....
I’ve travelled and worked in entertainment and tourism for that length of time and had a wide variety of jobs skilled and unskilled ..... I don’t know if that would give me any more or less of a clue as to what is going on than you or anyone else on here .... I can only rely on my own experience of life and people to try and do what is right......
By Panic , i mean people fighting over toilet rolls etc .....I’ve never said taking precautions was a bad idea and have always believed that personal hygiene was the way forward and always has been .....
Any predictions of death rate at present are just that and I think i read it on WHO website that they expect the final % to fall..... so comparing rates at present to previous outbreaks is pretty much a waste of time ? Or am I missing something when I read everywhere that you can’t make an accurate calculation of % until after the event ? It’s basically just people speculating for the sake of it , to fill airtime on 24hr news channels ....Who wouldn’t start to panic when bombarded with drama 24/7
Personal hygiene......Wash your hands and continue to remain aware of yourself and others and everything will be fine n dandy .... simple ........
It can be very challenging to influence people to change their mind about deeply held beliefs. In this particular case I think it would need to be a long term commitment by someone with lots of empathy, lots of patience, and lots of skill. If they can’t develop some sort or rapport with the individual there won’t be any significant change. Their identity is so closely tied to their belief system that I don’t believe any sort of traditional debate format, even if agreed to, would have any effect simply because there wouldn’t be any agreement upon the underlying assumptions of the participants. You can see this sort of dynamic when deists and atheists debate on topics like creation/evolution or even Christians from different denominations using the Bible to support the validity of their beliefs (a.k.a Bible bashing). There’s a lot of talking past one another.
I think it is certainly possible to create a belief system with rational logic using premises that are built upon beliefs not shared by the mainstream. If you don’t accept their premises there’s no reason to accept their belief system upon which it’s based either. The concept of false equivalency revolves around these sorts of issues.
It’s also possible to reach conclusions that are based upon evidence that turns out to be unsupported by more extensive evidence down the road. An ingrained part of human nature seems to be the drive to be right or certain (e.g. uncertainty reduction theory). Even in science where they go to great lengths to try and eliminate subjective bias, there’s been a long history of there being personal fallacious attacks on the work of individuals who come up with results and conclusions which challenge the accepted scientific orthodoxy of the time. Sometimes people will point to such behaviors as a way to support their conclusions which contradict accepted mainstream beliefs which I believe to be a mistake. If your conclusions are sufficiently robust they should survive scrutiny and be supported by evidence unless they fall into something like an ethical value judgment where it’s not so clear cut.
Sometimes coming up with an outline to try and address an issue can be trivial relative to implementing it successfully. I think this is such a case.
I guess there is no room for conversation. You said no one was talking about how many people die from the flu. I provided numbers and an analysis and tried to demonstrate some of the reasons why the coronovirus is more of a threat. Was that condescending?
Was it condescending to be skeptical that you have the knowledge or expertise so that we should listen to you rather than experts in the field.
If there is an error in what I shared, please point it out?
Neither I nor anyone else here is suggesting that we know more than the experts -- we aren't claiming that we figured this out. We have read what experts have written and found it credible. And the experts are in overwhelming agreement.
I am speaking up because I think that if you are successful in convincing other people that all they need to do is wash their hands, you will be putting people at risk.
I must have a stronger stomach than you for these sorts of things. Yes, being against vaccination is just one of the many issues they have taken a stand on. I suspect it’d take me a long time to even list what I listened to during the live stream the other night and it seems as if that might have been barely scraping the surface of their belief system. Perhaps being curious about them involved wondering how they’ve derived their beliefs and responses which are so alien to my own experiences, beliefs, and values.
I never take peoples own level of intelligence for granted, by that I mean I never assume that people don't know any better because it feels like I'm insulting their intelligence if I do so, I tend to go with 'evil does evil'..... because logic is a two way street and I've never seen one logical reason to believe that these people actually believe what they are espousing... sure they espouse it fervently, loudly, and with mucho gusto not to mention they generally have the same citizenship that I have but outside of that these beliefs are baseless.
but I do subscribe to the view that no matter what there is a reason for everything... and with the absence of any proof, evidence, or anything to base their claims on with the exception of hatred of the 'other' I'm inclined to call 'hatred of the other' the only real reason they do anything.
I really don’t know much about this group.
With respect to ISIS, their have been some documentaries on how they recruit people from various western countries to join their cause. Understanding these issues can help to reduce this recruitment.
I think the investment and decisions we make with respect to dealing with groups we oppose will have a lot to do with how it will evolve over time. Military actions, law enforcement, public policy, diplomacy, economics, and the justice system are just some aspects of this. It is of course all way over my skill or knowledge level. Hopefully we’re able to learn from the effects of our decisions.
In my original post I stated my opinion was based on life lived and nothing more ..... your general vibe is condescending I’m sure more than I can see that .... Your error is posting any %rate calculated before this is over and using it to back your view .... And again it’s like your try to put words in my mouth by suggesting I am trying to convince anyone that all they need do is wash their hands .... What I think you have achieved is prove my point of people trying to baffle, bullshit and create drama where there is only cause for concern ......
I agree with this sentiment whole heartedly, just whole heartedly can't invest in inequality at any stage or any level anymore. I can't see the purpose of treating terrorism on my side of the border any different than treating terrorism on the other side of the border, and all of the ideologies founded in division that imbue these people with the self prescribed rights to terrorize others physically, or through policies is just a non-starter for me at this point.
anyways, here's to things getting better
The full quote, which you did not post, makes it clear that Trump stated that the gov't is doing its part but for quicker expediting, it is suggested to use faster POS when purchasing.
QUOTE: "We will be backing you, but try getting it yourselves. Point of sales, much better, much more direct if you can get it yourself"
It's no wonder why the approval rating of Mass Media is in the toilet. This exact truncated quote is burning through social media right now. Exactly as if it is intentional disinformation meant to raise rage & panic levels. It can be safely assumed that journalists have the requisite IQ to understand what they are hearing from the president. Or can it be?
I don't give a toss what your politics are. I'm not defending Trump per se so your potential hate towards what I've written here will be laughed off. I'm just sick of disingenuous media making it more & more difficult to get straight facts when it matters more than ever.
Please be more discerning when spreading things around. It seems that many here are deranged with hate for Trump and others but that doesn't give you the right to negatively impact the People you so often claim to care about.
I thought it was already stated that checking sources is required before letting your patellar reflex engage. TIA.
Today’s vent is about the US Surgeon General. He stated today that we need to do all the CDC recommended distancing. BUT he also said this:
“We have a choice to make as a nation: Do we want to go the direction of South Korea and really be aggressive and lower our mortality rates, or do we want to go the direction of Italy?”
His recommendation may be correct: “really be aggressive”. But the truth is that the US chose to be like Italy over a week ago. The first cases we had with no direct link to an infected person or international travel were over two weeks ago. That was the time to recommend social distancing. That was when it was clear that the virus was spreading in communities. At this point, the trajectory is already set. The number of new, not yet tested infections today will be symptomatic and getting tests in 5 -7 days, and in 7-10 days the US will have testing data showing 20,000 + infections.
We’ve already matched Italy, Dr. Surgeon General. Italy is our best-case scenario now. Going “the direction of Korea” was never an option because the US missed their chance to do robust early testing and monitoring. The question now is if we are going to match Italy or pass up Wuhan.
[end of rant/ venting]
@Hmtx : the whole Trumpco line is what happens when you hire people for loyalty but not competence.
@LSV The full Trump quote is just insane. You're so desperate to find ANY redeeming words that come out of this addled, vain liar's mouth that you blame "the media" for reporting it! I'm sorry, but this is enraging.
"We will be backing you, but try getting it yourselves. Point of sales, much better, much more direct if you can get it yourself." You find something mitigating in that? He's telling American governors to find their own ventilators!
The ignorance is astounding. There ARE NO ventilators. You cannot buy them. This would be like telling the 101st Airborne to buy their own parachutes. Sure, the government will be backing you, but maybe try the parachute store in the meantime?
Seriously, the government needs to get into the ventilator production industry, like, last year. Jesus!
I agree some media outlets focus on getting more views by ramping up the drama via unethical editing techniques. This results in more panic, distrust, and anger. It undermines the public’s ability to respond appropriately.
In Friday‘s press conference they admitted the testing program wasn’t adequate for the crisis. The same is true for equipment capacity. I don’t know if we can ramp up the production of respirators, ventilators, or PPE in our country since we shifted to a service economy and global supply chain decades ago? Is there any possibility of releasing such equipment from the national strategic reserves? Just in time resupply could become out of time if the hospitals are overwhelmed.
Perhaps the story’s focus on portraying Trump as incompetent and callous are designed to distract the American public from the larger story of how unprepared we were for a health crisis of this scale? Are they trying to shield the healthcare industry from the American public’s response to this systemic problem? Who knows?
In any case this story’s headline and analysis of the issues was very shallow especially when many of the commentators on the story raised deeper questions. Short term blame isn’t the solution to ongoing decades old problems coming back to haunt us every step of the way.
That’s not at all what I did. I pointed out the inaccurate implication of a truncated quote.
You speak as though you know all about me. You make false assumptions like that I’m desperate to defend Trump or anyone else. You just make the assertion as though it’s the case when it’s not.
I couldn’t care less that you think I’m ignorant for not doing what you claim. You come across as extremely hostile. You misstate my position. You assume things about a total stranger without the benefit of discussion. I won’t engage in infantile insults.
My point was clear. Misusing information to generate false conclusions isn’t going to help the average person navigate the difficult time we are in. Spreading it is harmful.
I’ve no interest in engaging with hostile people. So what I’ve stated here stands for others to decide if I’m defending someone or if I’m making the larger point I’ve already explained.
@LSV, I do not think you have a partisan stance in this discussion. You have indicated that. And yes, the statement was not complete. I think the frustration is that, last I read, there are around 65,000 respirators for the entire country. When Trump advises Governors or hospitals might have an easier time on their own it is an obfuscation, IMO. There are no respirators to be had. When he says the government is exerting ”tremendous control” over the virus he is contradicting his experts standing shoulder to shoulder on the stage with him. He talks about social distancing yet he jams a crowd behind him because he thinks it looks good. If you have seen the accidental filming of the before and after of his Oval Office speech you will see that he does everything for the “look” of it and at the end he expells a long “o-o- k-a-a-y” like some teenager who did the best he could to fool his parents that he didn’t take the car out for a joyride.
Yes, the media is either sick of Trump or in love with him. But at this point the evidence is so mountainous re his incompetence to lead this nation in a crisis that his every action is suspect and full of deceit. We can be angry at the media, but it is not the media that failed in providing testing or taking the early position of behaving like S. Korea as the Surgeon General now suggests we act like.
It is the first chapter in the authoritarian playbook to try and disenfranchise the media. Past presidents likewise disliked negative press, but Trump, if he could, would silence all contrary voices. He did that with those around him, frightening them about giving bad news, and now we are here.
Now he admits the danger will be with us until August yet he has tremendous control. He has gone from hoax to 15 cases to everyone can be tested to uselessly closing the barn door and causing chaos for returning Americans.
Do you really think it is significant that someone here, or social media gives the essence of his remarks and not the exact letter of his statement which is a mixed message at its very best?
I respect your experience and opinions. Well worth saying. Trump is not given any slack because he has lost credibility with innumerable lies and actions.
Of course a huge part of our lack of preparedness is that two years ago Trump and Bolton got rid of the pandemic response folks and cut funding to the CDC significantly. And they have put mediocre people in places where you need really competent people.
Then when it was clear in January that a pandemic was a possibility, they weren't planning very well of being proactive...and were telling people this is no big deal.
The media behavior is not an excuse for this administration's incompetence. They demonstrated the same incompetence when Puerto Rico was devastated by the hurricane--a crisis the media covered poorly. So most people are unaware of the ineptness in the handling of that.
Here are DIY Ventilator Instructions. It seems way beyond my skill level and tools.
Yes, that was hostile of me. You felt the unfair brunt of my weariness with lazy generalized attacks on “the media,” especially since that definition is so absurdly broad. You said it once; wasn’t meant to attack you personally. The reference to ignorance was a reference to Trump.
However, the truncated quote is no more damning than the full quote. Blaming ANY of Trump’s failings on the media I find disingenuous at best.
Consider that the first confirmed Cornavirus case in the U.S. was on January 20th.
That's 8 weeks the Trump administration could have spent preparing tests, quarantine plans, respirators for hospitals, and stimulus packages. But chose not to.
And he gives himself a “10 out of 10.”