Loopy Pro: Create music, your way.

What is Loopy Pro?Loopy Pro is a powerful, flexible, and intuitive live looper, sampler, clip launcher and DAW for iPhone and iPad. At its core, it allows you to record and layer sounds in real-time to create complex musical arrangements. But it doesn’t stop there—Loopy Pro offers advanced tools to customize your workflow, build dynamic performance setups, and create a seamless connection between instruments, effects, and external gear.

Use it for live looping, sequencing, arranging, mixing, and much more. Whether you're a live performer, a producer, or just experimenting with sound, Loopy Pro helps you take control of your creative process.

Download on the App Store

Loopy Pro is your all-in-one musical toolkit. Try it for free today.

OT: Vent About Global Pandemic Management *HERE*

11617192122159

Comments

  • Someone in this thread has suggested that this is similar or less of a big deal compared to SARS, and that needs to be corrected.

    The SARS outbreak of 2003 infected about 8,000 people and killed 774. (With death rate nearly 10%, yes this was a big deal). https://www.cdc.gov/sars/about/fs-sars.html#outbreak

    This COVID-19 pandemic is far worse, it has killed 7,000 people globally and before long that number will pass the total number of people who even had SARS infection.

  • @Fruitbat1919 said:

    @InfoCheck said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @InfoCheck : do you feel that the ideas in that video deserve serious consideration?

    I may be misinterpreting your words, but it sounds as if you might think that the world is being unfairly dismissive of the ideas and world-view being espoused in that video?

    The world is a big place and I don’t speak for the world.

    1. If people are concerned about such groups, I believe they need to have insights into them.
    2. Getting summaries or interpretations from other people without some sort of examination of the original material isn’t as informative in my opinion.
    3. Being dismissive whether justified or not doesn’t lead to any sort of dialogue and only serves to reinforce existing divisions and conflicts.
    4. Drawing upon both empathy and rationality to address concerns surrounding these issues will maximize positive results in my opinion.
    5. If we’re really concerned about these people, how about some positive engagement?
    6. Is avoiding them and hoping they’ll die out like the Corona virus really going to be effective?
    7. An open mind and curiosity can provide learning opportunities during any sort of experience and it certainly doesn’t mean you’ll be adopting the belief system of the group you’re engaging with.
    8. If you don’t feel confident or safe enough to positively engage with a group so different from your own, I believe it’s appropriate not to. Perhaps it’s a time for self reflection into why you have those beliefs as it could help you become more aware of what your own strongly held values are.
    9. It’s not my place to dictate how people associate with each other or not.

    This is one of the few things written on this thread that actually makes much sense imo.

    I actually find this to be following logic off a cliff. I appreciate the reasonable approach to any and all information, but not all information is worth engaging. A guy claiming there's a vast conspiracy of left-wing child traffickers (with their headquarters in the basement of a pizzeria that does not have a basement) does not deserve being engaged.

    Maybe initially these claims were worth looking into? It's certainly a startling assertion. But once you realize it's a baseless conspiracy theory, you need to cut it off.

    As Garry Kasparov has said when asked how he can possibly know what move to make when there are a nearly infinite number of moves on a chess board: a master knows that a vast majority of moves are not even worth considering.

    But as to the suggestion that we engage and help these damaged people? I agree that's worthy, but I don't know how. It's much easier to ridicule, and I have been guilty of that. Helping is hard.

  • edited March 2020

    @JohnnyGoodyear said:

    @MonzoPro said:
    Weird situation for me, since I've been working from home for the last 16 years, and the nearest city is an hours drive away. Lunchtimes I'll have a walk up the village lanes, and might pass one or two people, so Monday to Friday usually the only other humans I properly see are the Mrs and the boy. Weekends we'll probably go off somewhere, or meet up with friends, but some weekends we just stay in (storms), or go for country walks.

    So as long as I avoid the news, and this thread, I can almost pretend it's not hapening. Though obviously in a few weeks time that probably won't be the case.

    Yup. Even though I live in town I'm largely an introverted bastard, we both run the company from home, and the dog isn't on Twitter. It's the seventeen year old who causes the exposure and danger in our lives. Thinking of making him sleep in the car. Also saw this one and thought of you :)

    It really is quite incredible the number of comments I read online, that still say ‘at least it’s not Corbyn/Labour’. Yeah, who’d have wanted him in, with his plans for massive investment into the NHS and public services? He’d only gone and wasted tax payers money on hospitals and stuff. We need an incompetent, lying, corrupt, racist idiot in charge!

    I never fail to be taken aback by the total, utter stupidity of some of the general public. self-harm on a National scale.

    One of the slogans the Tories were throwing around during their campaign was that ‘it’s’ time for a change’. BUT YOU’VE BEEN IN GOVERNMENT FOR A DECADE, HOW IS VOTING TO KEEP YOU IN, GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING!!!!!!

    Anyway, that’s enough venting for tonight, and no, I won’t be engaging with comments from Tory/Brexit supporters, as it’d be as constructive as teaching the dirt on my boots to whistle Beethoven.

    Yeah, I actually love working from home. If it wasn’t for the Mrs and Jnr coming and going, I probably wouldn’t even get this virus. It’d just be me left standing when the rich emerge from their bunkers.

    With a big old axe in my hands.

  • @InfoCheck said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @InfoCheck : do you feel that the ideas in that video deserve serious consideration?

    I may be misinterpreting your words, but it sounds as if you might think that the world is being unfairly dismissive of the ideas and world-view being espoused in that video?

    The world is a big place and I don’t speak for the world.

    1. If people are concerned about such groups, I believe they need to have insights into them.
    2. Getting summaries or interpretations from other people without some sort of examination of the original material isn’t as informative in my opinion.
    3. Being dismissive whether justified or not doesn’t lead to any sort of dialogue and only serves to reinforce existing divisions and conflicts.
    4. Drawing upon both empathy and rationality to address concerns surrounding these issues will maximize positive results in my opinion.
    5. If we’re really concerned about these people, how about some positive engagement?
    6. Is avoiding them and hoping they’ll die out like the Corona virus really going to be effective?
    7. An open mind and curiosity can provide learning opportunities during any sort of experience and it certainly doesn’t mean you’ll be adopting the belief system of the group you’re engaging with.
    8. If you don’t feel confident or safe enough to positively engage with a group so different from your own, I believe it’s appropriate not to. Perhaps it’s a time for self reflection into why you have those beliefs as it could help you become more aware of what your own strongly held values are.
    9. It’s not my place to dictate how people associate with each other or not.

    I tried to engage him in a discussion of the merits. He wasn't interested. I would go so far as to say that his opening remarks indicated a lack of interest in positive engagement. That's fine that's his right. As I said, I was sorry that the thread got deleted because I was interested in seeing what sort of defense he would have for his ideas.

    In my opinion, asking someone to justify their beliefs or explain the basis is part of engagement. I am skeptical of his ideas but quite willing to let him try to justify them, and I am even interested. Critiquing and questioning each other's reasoning in good faith is how we improve our ideas.

    I did not get the sense that he was interested in a reasoned discussion. The guy in that video, I suspect, has no interest in listening to someone with a different view of the world. I have seen many attempts by people to positively engage with the QANon folks. I have yet to hear of a QAnon believer who changed their opinion based on reasoned discussion. And that is probably because they did not arrive at their belief system as the result of some rational analytical process.

    But maybe I am wrong. And I am open to discussion/debate. Good faith debate is a good way to demonstrate the strength or weaknesses of an argument.

  • edited March 2020

    @ExAsperis99 said:

    @Fruitbat1919 said:

    @InfoCheck said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @InfoCheck : do you feel that the ideas in that video deserve serious consideration?

    I may be misinterpreting your words, but it sounds as if you might think that the world is being unfairly dismissive of the ideas and world-view being espoused in that video?

    The world is a big place and I don’t speak for the world.

    1. If people are concerned about such groups, I believe they need to have insights into them.
    2. Getting summaries or interpretations from other people without some sort of examination of the original material isn’t as informative in my opinion.
    3. Being dismissive whether justified or not doesn’t lead to any sort of dialogue and only serves to reinforce existing divisions and conflicts.
    4. Drawing upon both empathy and rationality to address concerns surrounding these issues will maximize positive results in my opinion.
    5. If we’re really concerned about these people, how about some positive engagement?
    6. Is avoiding them and hoping they’ll die out like the Corona virus really going to be effective?
    7. An open mind and curiosity can provide learning opportunities during any sort of experience and it certainly doesn’t mean you’ll be adopting the belief system of the group you’re engaging with.
    8. If you don’t feel confident or safe enough to positively engage with a group so different from your own, I believe it’s appropriate not to. Perhaps it’s a time for self reflection into why you have those beliefs as it could help you become more aware of what your own strongly held values are.
    9. It’s not my place to dictate how people associate with each other or not.

    This is one of the few things written on this thread that actually makes much sense imo.

    I actually find this to be following logic off a cliff. I appreciate the reasonable approach to any and all information, but not all information is worth engaging. A guy claiming there's a vast conspiracy of left-wing child traffickers (with their headquarters in the basement of a pizzeria that does not have a basement) does not deserve being engaged.

    Maybe initially these claims were worth looking into? It's certainly a startling assertion. But once you realize it's a baseless conspiracy theory, you need to cut it off.

    As Garry Kasparov has said when asked how he can possibly know what move to make when there are a nearly infinite number of moves on a chess board: a master knows that a vast majority of moves are not even worth considering.

    But as to the suggestion that we engage and help these damaged people? I agree that's worthy, but I don't know how. It's much easier to ridicule, and I have been guilty of that. Helping is hard.

    The group is opposed to vaccination so if you are someone who believes vaccines are effective, seeing groups like this grow would be a concern. I agree 100% that trying to convince such groups to change is extremely challenging. If there are people who have insight into why people join such groups, the information could be used as part of an effort to try and slow or reverse their growth. Perhaps none of us here would have the interest or skills to attempt such a feat, but hopefully there are others who are.

  • Somebody needs to take Robert Peston's twitter account away from him. That man's a menace.

  • @InfoCheck said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:

    @Fruitbat1919 said:

    @InfoCheck said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @InfoCheck : do you feel that the ideas in that video deserve serious consideration?

    I may be misinterpreting your words, but it sounds as if you might think that the world is being unfairly dismissive of the ideas and world-view being espoused in that video?

    The world is a big place and I don’t speak for the world.

    1. If people are concerned about such groups, I believe they need to have insights into them.
    2. Getting summaries or interpretations from other people without some sort of examination of the original material isn’t as informative in my opinion.
    3. Being dismissive whether justified or not doesn’t lead to any sort of dialogue and only serves to reinforce existing divisions and conflicts.
    4. Drawing upon both empathy and rationality to address concerns surrounding these issues will maximize positive results in my opinion.
    5. If we’re really concerned about these people, how about some positive engagement?
    6. Is avoiding them and hoping they’ll die out like the Corona virus really going to be effective?
    7. An open mind and curiosity can provide learning opportunities during any sort of experience and it certainly doesn’t mean you’ll be adopting the belief system of the group you’re engaging with.
    8. If you don’t feel confident or safe enough to positively engage with a group so different from your own, I believe it’s appropriate not to. Perhaps it’s a time for self reflection into why you have those beliefs as it could help you become more aware of what your own strongly held values are.
    9. It’s not my place to dictate how people associate with each other or not.

    This is one of the few things written on this thread that actually makes much sense imo.

    I actually find this to be following logic off a cliff. I appreciate the reasonable approach to any and all information, but not all information is worth engaging. A guy claiming there's a vast conspiracy of left-wing child traffickers (with their headquarters in the basement of a pizzeria that does not have a basement) does not deserve being engaged.

    Maybe initially these claims were worth looking into? It's certainly a startling assertion. But once you realize it's a baseless conspiracy theory, you need to cut it off.

    As Garry Kasparov has said when asked how he can possibly know what move to make when there are a nearly infinite number of moves on a chess board: a master knows that a vast majority of moves are not even worth considering.

    But as to the suggestion that we engage and help these damaged people? I agree that's worthy, but I don't know how. It's much easier to ridicule, and I have been guilty of that. Helping is hard.

    The group is opposed to vaccination so if you are someone who believes vaccines are effective, seeing groups like this grow would be a concern. I agree 100% that trying to convince such groups to change is extremely challenging. If there are people who have insight into why people join such groups, the information could be used as part of an effort to try and slow or reverse their growth. Perhaps none of us here would have the interest or skills to attempt such a feat, but hopefully there are others who are.

    I just forced myself to watch the entire video that the guy posted.

    The video he posted was not primarily related to vaccination -- it states as fact that Oprah Winfrey is part of some sort of pedophile ring with tunnels under her house, that New York City schools were closed to prevent kids from being taken hostage, that Jews have a lot of mine that is used for human trafficking and that they have a huge (literally) underground infrastructure that they use to get away with their crimes. He claims that the coronavirus is nothing more than a cold -- that it is literally the same virus as the cold virus. He talks about the country being controlled by "pedophile elites".

    This is not simply a vaccine-skeptical group. I found it pretty nauseating.

    I won't post a link to the video as I don't want to give it more publicity.

  • @ExAsperis99 said:

    Maybe initially these claims were worth looking into? It's certainly a startling assertion. But once you realize it's a baseless conspiracy theory, you need to cut it off.

    As Garry Kasparov has said when asked how he can possibly know what move to make when there are a nearly infinite number of moves on a chess board: a master knows that a vast majority of moves are not even worth considering.

    But as to the suggestion that we engage and help these damaged people? I agree that's worthy, but I don't know how. It's much easier to ridicule, and I have been guilty of that. Helping is hard.

    but why?... what is it about these people that there should be a campaign of help for them, nobody is trying to help isis, why these people?

  • edited March 2020

    News media are reporting that most of the SF Bay Area is about to be under shelter-in-home restrictions.

    They've been issued: https://cmo.smcgov.org/sites/cmo.smcgov.org/files/20200316 HHS 6CoPHOrder -- FINAL.pdf

  • @espiegel123 said:
    @silverk: You raise more points than it is possible to address. But let us start with the point you keep raising which is "A lot of people die from the flu, why make a fuss about the coronavirus?"

    This is really the key issue. You can look up the facts in any number of places that aren't "the media" (whatever that means).

    The flu does not kill massive numbers of people in industrialized nations. That large number you give is deceptive because it is out of context -- and it is hard for us to process big numbers out of context.

    So, let's analyze.

    While, the raw numbers seem large. when you look at the numbers as a percentage of the population, the lethality is small. In countries with wide-spread vaccination, the lethality rate is on the order of 0.05 - 0.1%. That means that of 2000 infected people only 1 to 2 people die.

    In countries that did nothing to avert this epidemic early, the lethality has been on the order of 3% or more of identified cases. What does that mean? It means that if 2000 people were symptomatic, 60 would die.

    Do you see the difference?

    Why haven't we seen hundreds of thousands die?

    1) Countries are taking extreme measures. The countries (like Japan) that took measures very early, seem to have stopped the virus dead. This doesn't mean the virus wasn't a threat: it means they acted very quickly and prevented an epidemic. It didn't turn into a catastrophe because they did something.

    2) So far, in the U.S. we are early enough in the epidemic that our hospital system is not yet overwhelmed. Our hospital system has very limited "extra" capacity. It is designed to be monetarily efficient -- which means hospitals run at close to full occupancy in normal years. The lethality of the virus is largely related to the ability of hospitals to provide respirators and intensive care for the people that develop lung infections. So far, we have not exceeded the capacity to do that. The skyrocketing death tool in Italy happened because they hit that limit. They had to decide which people got respirators and which didn't. Those that didn't died. In the SF Bay Area, a number of hospitals happen to have access to limited supplies of an experimental drug that seems to be helping. But we won't know for a couple of weeks how widely the epidemic has spread. If we acted early enough, there will be few enough cases that the hospitals will be able to keep up and the death rate will be low.

    The only reason things aren't worse are extreme measures that places are taking. These measures aren't being taken as the result of media manipulation.

    Anyway, read the articles I posted. Even if you don't trust the media, the authors share the math and methodology. You can then do the math yourself and see if it checks out.

    If it doesn't check out come back and tell us why.

    If "the media" says 2+2=4, you can check it out. If you find an error, you can call it out.

    I'd like to address one other point. You wrote: "Am I so stupid / gullible or paranoid to think it’s possible and very easy for us to be manipulated on a massive scale ? "

    What are your bona fides for thinking that your analysis is more rigorous than other people's? What gives you confidence that you are less gullible than the people that you see as gullible?

    Do you have expertise in some field where you have risen above your peers?

    In your life, has it turned out that your analytical skills were superior to those around you and that your insights have been acknowledged by those with expertise?

    All of us need to consider the possibility that we are the gullible and incorrect ones. In fact, that is what scientists and mathematicians do when they work out their theories -- they try to knock them down -- they rigorously doubt themselves and try to disprove their conclusions. And then they invite their peers to find the flaws.

    The good ideas are the ones that survive being contested. And contesting involves pointing to a flaw in the logic or math.

    You and a couple others on here really do get a buzz being condescending ......
    Your so impressed at your own intelligence........
    I feel debating or discussing anything with you will do nothing other than fan your ego ..
    I have 46 years on this planet , 20+ of those living and working abroad .....
    I’ve travelled and worked in entertainment and tourism for that length of time and had a wide variety of jobs skilled and unskilled ..... I don’t know if that would give me any more or less of a clue as to what is going on than you or anyone else on here .... I can only rely on my own experience of life and people to try and do what is right......
    By Panic , i mean people fighting over toilet rolls etc .....I’ve never said taking precautions was a bad idea and have always believed that personal hygiene was the way forward and always has been .....
    Any predictions of death rate at present are just that and I think i read it on WHO website that they expect the final % to fall..... so comparing rates at present to previous outbreaks is pretty much a waste of time ? Or am I missing something when I read everywhere that you can’t make an accurate calculation of % until after the event ? It’s basically just people speculating for the sake of it , to fill airtime on 24hr news channels ....Who wouldn’t start to panic when bombarded with drama 24/7
    Personal hygiene......Wash your hands and continue to remain aware of yourself and others and everything will be fine n dandy .... simple ........

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @InfoCheck said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @InfoCheck : do you feel that the ideas in that video deserve serious consideration?

    I may be misinterpreting your words, but it sounds as if you might think that the world is being unfairly dismissive of the ideas and world-view being espoused in that video?

    The world is a big place and I don’t speak for the world.

    1. If people are concerned about such groups, I believe they need to have insights into them.
    2. Getting summaries or interpretations from other people without some sort of examination of the original material isn’t as informative in my opinion.
    3. Being dismissive whether justified or not doesn’t lead to any sort of dialogue and only serves to reinforce existing divisions and conflicts.
    4. Drawing upon both empathy and rationality to address concerns surrounding these issues will maximize positive results in my opinion.
    5. If we’re really concerned about these people, how about some positive engagement?
    6. Is avoiding them and hoping they’ll die out like the Corona virus really going to be effective?
    7. An open mind and curiosity can provide learning opportunities during any sort of experience and it certainly doesn’t mean you’ll be adopting the belief system of the group you’re engaging with.
    8. If you don’t feel confident or safe enough to positively engage with a group so different from your own, I believe it’s appropriate not to. Perhaps it’s a time for self reflection into why you have those beliefs as it could help you become more aware of what your own strongly held values are.
    9. It’s not my place to dictate how people associate with each other or not.

    I tried to engage him in a discussion of the merits. He wasn't interested. I would go so far as to say that his opening remarks indicated a lack of interest in positive engagement. That's fine that's his right. As I said, I was sorry that the thread got deleted because I was interested in seeing what sort of defense he would have for his ideas.

    In my opinion, asking someone to justify their beliefs or explain the basis is part of engagement. I am skeptical of his ideas but quite willing to let him try to justify them, and I am even interested. Critiquing and questioning each other's reasoning in good faith is how we improve our ideas.

    I did not get the sense that he was interested in a reasoned discussion. The guy in that video, I suspect, has no interest in listening to someone with a different view of the world. I have seen many attempts by people to positively engage with the QANon folks. I have yet to hear of a QAnon believer who changed their opinion based on reasoned discussion. And that is probably because they did not arrive at their belief system as the result of some rational analytical process.

    But maybe I am wrong. And I am open to discussion/debate. Good faith debate is a good way to demonstrate the strength or weaknesses of an argument.

    It can be very challenging to influence people to change their mind about deeply held beliefs. In this particular case I think it would need to be a long term commitment by someone with lots of empathy, lots of patience, and lots of skill. If they can’t develop some sort or rapport with the individual there won’t be any significant change. Their identity is so closely tied to their belief system that I don’t believe any sort of traditional debate format, even if agreed to, would have any effect simply because there wouldn’t be any agreement upon the underlying assumptions of the participants. You can see this sort of dynamic when deists and atheists debate on topics like creation/evolution or even Christians from different denominations using the Bible to support the validity of their beliefs (a.k.a Bible bashing). There’s a lot of talking past one another.

    I think it is certainly possible to create a belief system with rational logic using premises that are built upon beliefs not shared by the mainstream. If you don’t accept their premises there’s no reason to accept their belief system upon which it’s based either. The concept of false equivalency revolves around these sorts of issues.

    It’s also possible to reach conclusions that are based upon evidence that turns out to be unsupported by more extensive evidence down the road. An ingrained part of human nature seems to be the drive to be right or certain (e.g. uncertainty reduction theory). Even in science where they go to great lengths to try and eliminate subjective bias, there’s been a long history of there being personal fallacious attacks on the work of individuals who come up with results and conclusions which challenge the accepted scientific orthodoxy of the time. Sometimes people will point to such behaviors as a way to support their conclusions which contradict accepted mainstream beliefs which I believe to be a mistake. If your conclusions are sufficiently robust they should survive scrutiny and be supported by evidence unless they fall into something like an ethical value judgment where it’s not so clear cut.

    Sometimes coming up with an outline to try and address an issue can be trivial relative to implementing it successfully. I think this is such a case.

  • @SilverK said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @silverk: You raise more points than it is possible to address. But let us start with the point you keep raising which is "A lot of people die from the flu, why make a fuss about the coronavirus?"

    This is really the key issue. You can look up the facts in any number of places that aren't "the media" (whatever that means).

    The flu does not kill massive numbers of people in industrialized nations. That large number you give is deceptive because it is out of context -- and it is hard for us to process big numbers out of context.

    So, let's analyze.

    While, the raw numbers seem large. when you look at the numbers as a percentage of the population, the lethality is small. In countries with wide-spread vaccination, the lethality rate is on the order of 0.05 - 0.1%. That means that of 2000 infected people only 1 to 2 people die.

    In countries that did nothing to avert this epidemic early, the lethality has been on the order of 3% or more of identified cases. What does that mean? It means that if 2000 people were symptomatic, 60 would die.

    Do you see the difference?

    Why haven't we seen hundreds of thousands die?

    1) Countries are taking extreme measures. The countries (like Japan) that took measures very early, seem to have stopped the virus dead. This doesn't mean the virus wasn't a threat: it means they acted very quickly and prevented an epidemic. It didn't turn into a catastrophe because they did something.

    2) So far, in the U.S. we are early enough in the epidemic that our hospital system is not yet overwhelmed. Our hospital system has very limited "extra" capacity. It is designed to be monetarily efficient -- which means hospitals run at close to full occupancy in normal years. The lethality of the virus is largely related to the ability of hospitals to provide respirators and intensive care for the people that develop lung infections. So far, we have not exceeded the capacity to do that. The skyrocketing death tool in Italy happened because they hit that limit. They had to decide which people got respirators and which didn't. Those that didn't died. In the SF Bay Area, a number of hospitals happen to have access to limited supplies of an experimental drug that seems to be helping. But we won't know for a couple of weeks how widely the epidemic has spread. If we acted early enough, there will be few enough cases that the hospitals will be able to keep up and the death rate will be low.

    The only reason things aren't worse are extreme measures that places are taking. These measures aren't being taken as the result of media manipulation.

    Anyway, read the articles I posted. Even if you don't trust the media, the authors share the math and methodology. You can then do the math yourself and see if it checks out.

    If it doesn't check out come back and tell us why.

    If "the media" says 2+2=4, you can check it out. If you find an error, you can call it out.

    I'd like to address one other point. You wrote: "Am I so stupid / gullible or paranoid to think it’s possible and very easy for us to be manipulated on a massive scale ? "

    What are your bona fides for thinking that your analysis is more rigorous than other people's? What gives you confidence that you are less gullible than the people that you see as gullible?

    Do you have expertise in some field where you have risen above your peers?

    In your life, has it turned out that your analytical skills were superior to those around you and that your insights have been acknowledged by those with expertise?

    All of us need to consider the possibility that we are the gullible and incorrect ones. In fact, that is what scientists and mathematicians do when they work out their theories -- they try to knock them down -- they rigorously doubt themselves and try to disprove their conclusions. And then they invite their peers to find the flaws.

    The good ideas are the ones that survive being contested. And contesting involves pointing to a flaw in the logic or math.

    You and a couple others on here really do get a buzz being condescending ......
    Your so impressed at your own intelligence........
    I feel debating or discussing anything with you will do nothing other than fan your ego ..
    I have 46 years on this planet , 20+ of those living and working abroad .....
    I’ve travelled and worked in entertainment and tourism for that length of time and had a wide variety of jobs skilled and unskilled ..... I don’t know if that would give me any more or less of a clue as to what is going on than you or anyone else on here .... I can only rely on my own experience of life and people to try and do what is right......
    By Panic , i mean people fighting over toilet rolls etc .....I’ve never said taking precautions was a bad idea and have always believed that personal hygiene was the way forward and always has been .....
    Any predictions of death rate at present are just that and I think i read it on WHO website that they expect the final % to fall..... so comparing rates at present to previous outbreaks is pretty much a waste of time ? Or am I missing something when I read everywhere that you can’t make an accurate calculation of % until after the event ? It’s basically just people speculating for the sake of it , to fill airtime on 24hr news channels ....Who wouldn’t start to panic when bombarded with drama 24/7
    Personal hygiene......Wash your hands and continue to remain aware of yourself and others and everything will be fine n dandy .... simple ........

    I guess there is no room for conversation. You said no one was talking about how many people die from the flu. I provided numbers and an analysis and tried to demonstrate some of the reasons why the coronovirus is more of a threat. Was that condescending?

    Was it condescending to be skeptical that you have the knowledge or expertise so that we should listen to you rather than experts in the field.

    If there is an error in what I shared, please point it out?

    Neither I nor anyone else here is suggesting that we know more than the experts -- we aren't claiming that we figured this out. We have read what experts have written and found it credible. And the experts are in overwhelming agreement.

    I am speaking up because I think that if you are successful in convincing other people that all they need to do is wash their hands, you will be putting people at risk.

  • edited March 2020

    @espiegel123 said:

    @InfoCheck said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:

    @Fruitbat1919 said:

    @InfoCheck said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @InfoCheck : do you feel that the ideas in that video deserve serious consideration?

    I may be misinterpreting your words, but it sounds as if you might think that the world is being unfairly dismissive of the ideas and world-view being espoused in that video?

    The world is a big place and I don’t speak for the world.

    1. If people are concerned about such groups, I believe they need to have insights into them.
    2. Getting summaries or interpretations from other people without some sort of examination of the original material isn’t as informative in my opinion.
    3. Being dismissive whether justified or not doesn’t lead to any sort of dialogue and only serves to reinforce existing divisions and conflicts.
    4. Drawing upon both empathy and rationality to address concerns surrounding these issues will maximize positive results in my opinion.
    5. If we’re really concerned about these people, how about some positive engagement?
    6. Is avoiding them and hoping they’ll die out like the Corona virus really going to be effective?
    7. An open mind and curiosity can provide learning opportunities during any sort of experience and it certainly doesn’t mean you’ll be adopting the belief system of the group you’re engaging with.
    8. If you don’t feel confident or safe enough to positively engage with a group so different from your own, I believe it’s appropriate not to. Perhaps it’s a time for self reflection into why you have those beliefs as it could help you become more aware of what your own strongly held values are.
    9. It’s not my place to dictate how people associate with each other or not.

    This is one of the few things written on this thread that actually makes much sense imo.

    I actually find this to be following logic off a cliff. I appreciate the reasonable approach to any and all information, but not all information is worth engaging. A guy claiming there's a vast conspiracy of left-wing child traffickers (with their headquarters in the basement of a pizzeria that does not have a basement) does not deserve being engaged.

    Maybe initially these claims were worth looking into? It's certainly a startling assertion. But once you realize it's a baseless conspiracy theory, you need to cut it off.

    As Garry Kasparov has said when asked how he can possibly know what move to make when there are a nearly infinite number of moves on a chess board: a master knows that a vast majority of moves are not even worth considering.

    But as to the suggestion that we engage and help these damaged people? I agree that's worthy, but I don't know how. It's much easier to ridicule, and I have been guilty of that. Helping is hard.

    The group is opposed to vaccination so if you are someone who believes vaccines are effective, seeing groups like this grow would be a concern. I agree 100% that trying to convince such groups to change is extremely challenging. If there are people who have insight into why people join such groups, the information could be used as part of an effort to try and slow or reverse their growth. Perhaps none of us here would have the interest or skills to attempt such a feat, but hopefully there are others who are.

    I just forced myself to watch the entire video that the guy posted.

    The video he posted was not primarily related to vaccination -- it states as fact that Oprah Winfrey is part of some sort of pedophile ring with tunnels under her house, that New York City schools were closed to prevent kids from being taken hostage, that Jews have a lot of mine that is used for human trafficking and that they have a huge (literally) underground infrastructure that they use to get away with their crimes. He claims that the coronavirus is nothing more than a cold -- that it is literally the same virus as the cold virus. He talks about the country being controlled by "pedophile elites".

    This is not simply a vaccine-skeptical group. I found it pretty nauseating.

    I won't post a link to the video as I don't want to give it more publicity.

    I must have a stronger stomach than you for these sorts of things. Yes, being against vaccination is just one of the many issues they have taken a stand on. I suspect it’d take me a long time to even list what I listened to during the live stream the other night and it seems as if that might have been barely scraping the surface of their belief system. Perhaps being curious about them involved wondering how they’ve derived their beliefs and responses which are so alien to my own experiences, beliefs, and values.

  • I never take peoples own level of intelligence for granted, by that I mean I never assume that people don't know any better because it feels like I'm insulting their intelligence if I do so, I tend to go with 'evil does evil'..... because logic is a two way street and I've never seen one logical reason to believe that these people actually believe what they are espousing... sure they espouse it fervently, loudly, and with mucho gusto not to mention they generally have the same citizenship that I have but outside of that these beliefs are baseless.

    but I do subscribe to the view that no matter what there is a reason for everything... and with the absence of any proof, evidence, or anything to base their claims on with the exception of hatred of the 'other' I'm inclined to call 'hatred of the other' the only real reason they do anything.

  • @kobamoto said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:

    Maybe initially these claims were worth looking into? It's certainly a startling assertion. But once you realize it's a baseless conspiracy theory, you need to cut it off.

    As Garry Kasparov has said when asked how he can possibly know what move to make when there are a nearly infinite number of moves on a chess board: a master knows that a vast majority of moves are not even worth considering.

    But as to the suggestion that we engage and help these damaged people? I agree that's worthy, but I don't know how. It's much easier to ridicule, and I have been guilty of that. Helping is hard.

    but why?... what is it about these people that there should be a campaign of help for them, nobody is trying to help isis, why these people?

    I really don’t know much about this group.

    With respect to ISIS, their have been some documentaries on how they recruit people from various western countries to join their cause. Understanding these issues can help to reduce this recruitment.

    I think the investment and decisions we make with respect to dealing with groups we oppose will have a lot to do with how it will evolve over time. Military actions, law enforcement, public policy, diplomacy, economics, and the justice system are just some aspects of this. It is of course all way over my skill or knowledge level. Hopefully we’re able to learn from the effects of our decisions.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @SilverK said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @silverk: You raise more points than it is possible to address. But let us start with the point you keep raising which is "A lot of people die from the flu, why make a fuss about the coronavirus?"

    This is really the key issue. You can look up the facts in any number of places that aren't "the media" (whatever that means).

    The flu does not kill massive numbers of people in industrialized nations. That large number you give is deceptive because it is out of context -- and it is hard for us to process big numbers out of context.

    So, let's analyze.

    While, the raw numbers seem large. when you look at the numbers as a percentage of the population, the lethality is small. In countries with wide-spread vaccination, the lethality rate is on the order of 0.05 - 0.1%. That means that of 2000 infected people only 1 to 2 people die.

    In countries that did nothing to avert this epidemic early, the lethality has been on the order of 3% or more of identified cases. What does that mean? It means that if 2000 people were symptomatic, 60 would die.

    Do you see the difference?

    Why haven't we seen hundreds of thousands die?

    1) Countries are taking extreme measures. The countries (like Japan) that took measures very early, seem to have stopped the virus dead. This doesn't mean the virus wasn't a threat: it means they acted very quickly and prevented an epidemic. It didn't turn into a catastrophe because they did something.

    2) So far, in the U.S. we are early enough in the epidemic that our hospital system is not yet overwhelmed. Our hospital system has very limited "extra" capacity. It is designed to be monetarily efficient -- which means hospitals run at close to full occupancy in normal years. The lethality of the virus is largely related to the ability of hospitals to provide respirators and intensive care for the people that develop lung infections. So far, we have not exceeded the capacity to do that. The skyrocketing death tool in Italy happened because they hit that limit. They had to decide which people got respirators and which didn't. Those that didn't died. In the SF Bay Area, a number of hospitals happen to have access to limited supplies of an experimental drug that seems to be helping. But we won't know for a couple of weeks how widely the epidemic has spread. If we acted early enough, there will be few enough cases that the hospitals will be able to keep up and the death rate will be low.

    The only reason things aren't worse are extreme measures that places are taking. These measures aren't being taken as the result of media manipulation.

    Anyway, read the articles I posted. Even if you don't trust the media, the authors share the math and methodology. You can then do the math yourself and see if it checks out.

    If it doesn't check out come back and tell us why.

    If "the media" says 2+2=4, you can check it out. If you find an error, you can call it out.

    I'd like to address one other point. You wrote: "Am I so stupid / gullible or paranoid to think it’s possible and very easy for us to be manipulated on a massive scale ? "

    What are your bona fides for thinking that your analysis is more rigorous than other people's? What gives you confidence that you are less gullible than the people that you see as gullible?

    Do you have expertise in some field where you have risen above your peers?

    In your life, has it turned out that your analytical skills were superior to those around you and that your insights have been acknowledged by those with expertise?

    All of us need to consider the possibility that we are the gullible and incorrect ones. In fact, that is what scientists and mathematicians do when they work out their theories -- they try to knock them down -- they rigorously doubt themselves and try to disprove their conclusions. And then they invite their peers to find the flaws.

    The good ideas are the ones that survive being contested. And contesting involves pointing to a flaw in the logic or math.

    You and a couple others on here really do get a buzz being condescending ......
    Your so impressed at your own intelligence........
    I feel debating or discussing anything with you will do nothing other than fan your ego ..
    I have 46 years on this planet , 20+ of those living and working abroad .....
    I’ve travelled and worked in entertainment and tourism for that length of time and had a wide variety of jobs skilled and unskilled ..... I don’t know if that would give me any more or less of a clue as to what is going on than you or anyone else on here .... I can only rely on my own experience of life and people to try and do what is right......
    By Panic , i mean people fighting over toilet rolls etc .....I’ve never said taking precautions was a bad idea and have always believed that personal hygiene was the way forward and always has been .....
    Any predictions of death rate at present are just that and I think i read it on WHO website that they expect the final % to fall..... so comparing rates at present to previous outbreaks is pretty much a waste of time ? Or am I missing something when I read everywhere that you can’t make an accurate calculation of % until after the event ? It’s basically just people speculating for the sake of it , to fill airtime on 24hr news channels ....Who wouldn’t start to panic when bombarded with drama 24/7
    Personal hygiene......Wash your hands and continue to remain aware of yourself and others and everything will be fine n dandy .... simple ........

    I guess there is no room for conversation. You said no one was talking about how many people die from the flu. I provided numbers and an analysis and tried to demonstrate some of the reasons why the coronovirus is more of a threat. Was that condescending?

    Was it condescending to be skeptical that you have the knowledge or expertise so that we should listen to you rather than experts in the field.

    If there is an error in what I shared, please point it out?

    Neither I nor anyone else here is suggesting that we know more than the experts -- we aren't claiming that we figured this out. We have read what experts have written and found it credible. And the experts are in overwhelming agreement.

    I am speaking up because I think that if you are successful in convincing other people that all they need to do is wash their hands, you will be putting people at risk.

    In my original post I stated my opinion was based on life lived and nothing more ..... your general vibe is condescending I’m sure more than I can see that .... Your error is posting any %rate calculated before this is over and using it to back your view .... And again it’s like your try to put words in my mouth by suggesting I am trying to convince anyone that all they need do is wash their hands .... What I think you have achieved is prove my point of people trying to baffle, bullshit and create drama where there is only cause for concern ......

  • edited March 2020

    @InfoCheck said:

    I think the investment and decisions we make with respect to dealing with groups we oppose will have a lot to do with how it will evolve over time. Military actions, law enforcement, public policy, diplomacy, economics, and the justice system are just some aspects of this. It is of course all way over my skill or knowledge level. Hopefully we’re able to learn from the effects of our decisions.

    I agree with this sentiment whole heartedly, just whole heartedly can't invest in inequality at any stage or any level anymore. I can't see the purpose of treating terrorism on my side of the border any different than treating terrorism on the other side of the border, and all of the ideologies founded in division that imbue these people with the self prescribed rights to terrorize others physically, or through policies is just a non-starter for me at this point.

    anyways, here's to things getting better :)

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • @Max23 said:
    “Respirators, ventilators, all of the equipment — try getting it yourselves,” Donald Trump told state governors on an emergency pandemic conference call.

    The full quote, which you did not post, makes it clear that Trump stated that the gov't is doing its part but for quicker expediting, it is suggested to use faster POS when purchasing.

    QUOTE: "We will be backing you, but try getting it yourselves. Point of sales, much better, much more direct if you can get it yourself"

    It's no wonder why the approval rating of Mass Media is in the toilet. This exact truncated quote is burning through social media right now. Exactly as if it is intentional disinformation meant to raise rage & panic levels. It can be safely assumed that journalists have the requisite IQ to understand what they are hearing from the president. Or can it be?

    I don't give a toss what your politics are. I'm not defending Trump per se so your potential hate towards what I've written here will be laughed off. I'm just sick of disingenuous media making it more & more difficult to get straight facts when it matters more than ever.

    Please be more discerning when spreading things around. It seems that many here are deranged with hate for Trump and others but that doesn't give you the right to negatively impact the People you so often claim to care about.

    I thought it was already stated that checking sources is required before letting your patellar reflex engage. TIA.

  • edited March 2020

    Today’s vent is about the US Surgeon General. He stated today that we need to do all the CDC recommended distancing. BUT he also said this:

    “We have a choice to make as a nation: Do we want to go the direction of South Korea and really be aggressive and lower our mortality rates, or do we want to go the direction of Italy?”

    His recommendation may be correct: “really be aggressive”. But the truth is that the US chose to be like Italy over a week ago. The first cases we had with no direct link to an infected person or international travel were over two weeks ago. That was the time to recommend social distancing. That was when it was clear that the virus was spreading in communities. At this point, the trajectory is already set. The number of new, not yet tested infections today will be symptomatic and getting tests in 5 -7 days, and in 7-10 days the US will have testing data showing 20,000 + infections.

    We’ve already matched Italy, Dr. Surgeon General. Italy is our best-case scenario now. Going “the direction of Korea” was never an option because the US missed their chance to do robust early testing and monitoring. The question now is if we are going to match Italy or pass up Wuhan.

    [end of rant/ venting]

  • @Hmtx : the whole Trumpco line is what happens when you hire people for loyalty but not competence.

  • edited March 2020

    @LSV The full Trump quote is just insane. You're so desperate to find ANY redeeming words that come out of this addled, vain liar's mouth that you blame "the media" for reporting it! I'm sorry, but this is enraging.

    "We will be backing you, but try getting it yourselves. Point of sales, much better, much more direct if you can get it yourself." You find something mitigating in that? He's telling American governors to find their own ventilators!

    The ignorance is astounding. There ARE NO ventilators. You cannot buy them. This would be like telling the 101st Airborne to buy their own parachutes. Sure, the government will be backing you, but maybe try the parachute store in the meantime?

    Seriously, the government needs to get into the ventilator production industry, like, last year. Jesus!

  • @LSV said:

    @Max23 said:
    “Respirators, ventilators, all of the equipment — try getting it yourselves,” Donald Trump told state governors on an emergency pandemic conference call.

    The full quote, which you did not post, makes it clear that Trump stated that the gov't is doing its part but for quicker expediting, it is suggested to use faster POS when purchasing.

    QUOTE: "We will be backing you, but try getting it yourselves. Point of sales, much better, much more direct if you can get it yourself"

    It's no wonder why the approval rating of Mass Media is in the toilet. This exact truncated quote is burning through social media right now. Exactly as if it is intentional disinformation meant to raise rage & panic levels. It can be safely assumed that journalists have the requisite IQ to understand what they are hearing from the president. Or can it be?

    I don't give a toss what your politics are. I'm not defending Trump per se so your potential hate towards what I've written here will be laughed off. I'm just sick of disingenuous media making it more & more difficult to get straight facts when it matters more than ever.

    Please be more discerning when spreading things around. It seems that many here are deranged with hate for Trump and others but that doesn't give you the right to negatively impact the People you so often claim to care about.

    I thought it was already stated that checking sources is required before letting your patellar reflex engage. TIA.

    I agree some media outlets focus on getting more views by ramping up the drama via unethical editing techniques. This results in more panic, distrust, and anger. It undermines the public’s ability to respond appropriately.

    In Friday‘s press conference they admitted the testing program wasn’t adequate for the crisis. The same is true for equipment capacity. I don’t know if we can ramp up the production of respirators, ventilators, or PPE in our country since we shifted to a service economy and global supply chain decades ago? Is there any possibility of releasing such equipment from the national strategic reserves? Just in time resupply could become out of time if the hospitals are overwhelmed.

    Perhaps the story’s focus on portraying Trump as incompetent and callous are designed to distract the American public from the larger story of how unprepared we were for a health crisis of this scale? Are they trying to shield the healthcare industry from the American public’s response to this systemic problem? Who knows?

    In any case this story’s headline and analysis of the issues was very shallow especially when many of the commentators on the story raised deeper questions. Short term blame isn’t the solution to ongoing decades old problems coming back to haunt us every step of the way.

  • @ExAsperis99 said:
    @LSV The full Trump quote is just insane. You're so desperate to find ANY redeeming words that come out of this addled, vain liar's mouth that you blame "the media" for reporting it! I'm sorry, but this is enraging.

    "We will be backing you, but try getting it yourselves. Point of sales, much better, much more direct if you can get it yourself." You find something mitigating in that? He's telling American governors to find their own ventilators!

    The ignorance is astounding. There ARE NO ventilators. You cannot buy them. This would be like telling the 101st Airborne to buy their own parachutes. Sure, the government will be backing you, but maybe try the parachute store in the meantime?

    Seriously, the government needs to get into the ventilator production industry, like, last year. Jesus!

    That’s not at all what I did. I pointed out the inaccurate implication of a truncated quote.

    You speak as though you know all about me. You make false assumptions like that I’m desperate to defend Trump or anyone else. You just make the assertion as though it’s the case when it’s not.

    I couldn’t care less that you think I’m ignorant for not doing what you claim. You come across as extremely hostile. You misstate my position. You assume things about a total stranger without the benefit of discussion. I won’t engage in infantile insults.

    My point was clear. Misusing information to generate false conclusions isn’t going to help the average person navigate the difficult time we are in. Spreading it is harmful.

    I’ve no interest in engaging with hostile people. So what I’ve stated here stands for others to decide if I’m defending someone or if I’m making the larger point I’ve already explained.

  • edited March 2020
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • @LSV, I do not think you have a partisan stance in this discussion. You have indicated that. And yes, the statement was not complete. I think the frustration is that, last I read, there are around 65,000 respirators for the entire country. When Trump advises Governors or hospitals might have an easier time on their own it is an obfuscation, IMO. There are no respirators to be had. When he says the government is exerting ”tremendous control” over the virus he is contradicting his experts standing shoulder to shoulder on the stage with him. He talks about social distancing yet he jams a crowd behind him because he thinks it looks good. If you have seen the accidental filming of the before and after of his Oval Office speech you will see that he does everything for the “look” of it and at the end he expells a long “o-o- k-a-a-y” like some teenager who did the best he could to fool his parents that he didn’t take the car out for a joyride.

    Yes, the media is either sick of Trump or in love with him. But at this point the evidence is so mountainous re his incompetence to lead this nation in a crisis that his every action is suspect and full of deceit. We can be angry at the media, but it is not the media that failed in providing testing or taking the early position of behaving like S. Korea as the Surgeon General now suggests we act like.

    It is the first chapter in the authoritarian playbook to try and disenfranchise the media. Past presidents likewise disliked negative press, but Trump, if he could, would silence all contrary voices. He did that with those around him, frightening them about giving bad news, and now we are here.
    Now he admits the danger will be with us until August yet he has tremendous control. He has gone from hoax to 15 cases to everyone can be tested to uselessly closing the barn door and causing chaos for returning Americans.

    Do you really think it is significant that someone here, or social media gives the essence of his remarks and not the exact letter of his statement which is a mixed message at its very best?
    I respect your experience and opinions. Well worth saying. Trump is not given any slack because he has lost credibility with innumerable lies and actions.

  • @InfoCheck said:

    @LSV said:

    @Max23 said:
    “Respirators, ventilators, all of the equipment — try getting it yourselves,” Donald Trump told state governors on an emergency pandemic conference call.

    The full quote, which you did not post, makes it clear that Trump stated that the gov't is doing its part but for quicker expediting, it is suggested to use faster POS when purchasing.

    QUOTE: "We will be backing you, but try getting it yourselves. Point of sales, much better, much more direct if you can get it yourself"

    It's no wonder why the approval rating of Mass Media is in the toilet. This exact truncated quote is burning through social media right now. Exactly as if it is intentional disinformation meant to raise rage & panic levels. It can be safely assumed that journalists have the requisite IQ to understand what they are hearing from the president. Or can it be?

    I don't give a toss what your politics are. I'm not defending Trump per se so your potential hate towards what I've written here will be laughed off. I'm just sick of disingenuous media making it more & more difficult to get straight facts when it matters more than ever.

    Please be more discerning when spreading things around. It seems that many here are deranged with hate for Trump and others but that doesn't give you the right to negatively impact the People you so often claim to care about.

    I thought it was already stated that checking sources is required before letting your patellar reflex engage. TIA.

    I agree some media outlets focus on getting more views by ramping up the drama via unethical editing techniques. This results in more panic, distrust, and anger. It undermines the public’s ability to respond appropriately.

    In Friday‘s press conference they admitted the testing program wasn’t adequate for the crisis. The same is true for equipment capacity. I don’t know if we can ramp up the production of respirators, ventilators, or PPE in our country since we shifted to a service economy and global supply chain decades ago? Is there any possibility of releasing such equipment from the national strategic reserves? Just in time resupply could become out of time if the hospitals are overwhelmed.

    Perhaps the story’s focus on portraying Trump as incompetent and callous are designed to distract the American public from the larger story of how unprepared we were for a health crisis of this scale? Are they trying to shield the healthcare industry from the American public’s response to this systemic problem? Who knows?

    In any case this story’s headline and analysis of the issues was very shallow especially when many of the commentators on the story raised deeper questions. Short term blame isn’t the solution to ongoing decades old problems coming back to haunt us every step of the way.

    Of course a huge part of our lack of preparedness is that two years ago Trump and Bolton got rid of the pandemic response folks and cut funding to the CDC significantly. And they have put mediocre people in places where you need really competent people.

    Then when it was clear in January that a pandemic was a possibility, they weren't planning very well of being proactive...and were telling people this is no big deal.

    The media behavior is not an excuse for this administration's incompetence. They demonstrated the same incompetence when Puerto Rico was devastated by the hurricane--a crisis the media covered poorly. So most people are unaware of the ineptness in the handling of that.


  • Here are DIY Ventilator Instructions. It seems way beyond my skill level and tools.

  • @LSV said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:
    @LSV The full Trump quote is just insane. You're so desperate to find ANY redeeming words that come out of this addled, vain liar's mouth that you blame "the media" for reporting it! I'm sorry, but this is enraging.

    "We will be backing you, but try getting it yourselves. Point of sales, much better, much more direct if you can get it yourself." You find something mitigating in that? He's telling American governors to find their own ventilators!

    The ignorance is astounding. There ARE NO ventilators. You cannot buy them. This would be like telling the 101st Airborne to buy their own parachutes. Sure, the government will be backing you, but maybe try the parachute store in the meantime?

    Seriously, the government needs to get into the ventilator production industry, like, last year. Jesus!

    That’s not at all what I did. I pointed out the inaccurate implication of a truncated quote.

    You speak as though you know all about me. You make false assumptions like that I’m desperate to defend Trump or anyone else. You just make the assertion as though it’s the case when it’s not.

    I couldn’t care less that you think I’m ignorant for not doing what you claim. You come across as extremely hostile. You misstate my position. You assume things about a total stranger without the benefit of discussion. I won’t engage in infantile insults.

    My point was clear. Misusing information to generate false conclusions isn’t going to help the average person navigate the difficult time we are in. Spreading it is harmful.

    I’ve no interest in engaging with hostile people. So what I’ve stated here stands for others to decide if I’m defending someone or if I’m making the larger point I’ve already explained.

    Yes, that was hostile of me. You felt the unfair brunt of my weariness with lazy generalized attacks on “the media,” especially since that definition is so absurdly broad. You said it once; wasn’t meant to attack you personally. The reference to ignorance was a reference to Trump.

    However, the truncated quote is no more damning than the full quote. Blaming ANY of Trump’s failings on the media I find disingenuous at best.

    Consider that the first confirmed Cornavirus case in the U.S. was on January 20th.

    That's 8 weeks the Trump administration could have spent preparing tests, quarantine plans, respirators for hospitals, and stimulus packages. But chose not to.

    And he gives himself a “10 out of 10.”

Sign In or Register to comment.