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OT: Vent About Global Pandemic Management *HERE*

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Comments

  • @espiegel123 said:
    @McD said:

    These are code words (from a long list) for one mindset that makes debate a game of minesweeper.

    Racist.

    Not sure what you are saying McD. "Black Lives Matter" is about racial justice. It isn't an attack on anyone except for people that find structural racism acceptable.

    I agree with you but I was trying to show how people on the right have flipped Racism on it's head to show how while people are discriminated against by black people. This type of Orwellian reality inversion happens when Colleges give minorities an Affirmative benefit to balance admissions.

    I hope that helps remove the ambiguity by talking about political insanity using someone else's words.
    I use examples a lot to see if I can get people to see another view on the world and it's alway risky.
    People think you're holding this opposite view.

    I was once in a room of ardent feminists in the 70's and tried to get them to see why a teenage kid needed those images in Playboy. It did not end well.

  • We are going to have similar issues this year with Biden's history with women. It's early yet.
    Biden could get the virus and it's early yet.

  • edited April 2020

    when you understand the full consequences of falling all the way down to the depths of equality from the highest hill tops of the fantasy that is superiority you can understand why the mere thought of someone who didn't even have human rights just walking freely down the street unabashedly in front of you could be offensive or even an act of violence for someone with the disease ailing our dear president. He's insane.

  • @LinearLineman Casually equating Trump with Hitler and Mussolini trivializes the horrors of the Nazi regime; it's a gross distortion of history and an insult to the millions of victims of Nazism. And you apparently equate the German language with Nazism.... that's a really limited interpretation of German history and culture..... certainly not progressive!

  • @kobamoto I'm intrigued. Where exactly can one "fall all the way down to the depths of equality"?

  • @JohnnyGoodyear said:

    @kobamoto said:
    Stay Vigilant

    Excellent, where’s the source for that (that I may tweet it and give credit?)

  • @ElectroHead said:
    @LinearLineman Casually equating Trump with Hitler and Mussolini trivializes the horrors of the Nazi regime; it's a gross distortion of history and an insult to the millions of victims of Nazism.

    Trump is not Hitler. Republicans are not Nazis.

    However...

    There are strong parallels when you look at a macro level. The current national GOP movement and Trump, fascists, oligarchs, corporations.

    Trump is toeing the line, stoking fear and hatred of non-whites to maintain power, prison camps and children, a propaganda network, stacking courts and positions of power with inept flunkies that'll follow orders, etc.

    Hopefully we can stop them before it's too late and they cross the line and it's not longer a false equivalence with Nazis. Trump and the Republicans are already well on their way toward being one of the biggest, most shameful stains on our nation's history.

  • @ElectroHead : I agree that people go too easily to the Nazi analogy...often because they don’t fully understand the scale of what Hitler did and how he mobilized most of what was considered the most advanced (technologically and culturally) Western country to become an atrocity machine the scale of which had been previously unknown over a few short years.

    But one might say equating Mussolini with Hitler is a gross distortion.

    Mussolini was terrible and brutal, but his crimes (and crimes they were) were not of the same scale as what Hitler and the Nazis did.

    Trump’s inclinations are more in the Mussolini/Putin direction than the Hitler direction.

  • edited April 2020

    @espiegel123

    "Trump’s inclinations are more in the Mussolini/Putin direction than the Hitler direction."

    If Putin was of the "Mussolini persuasion", Islam and Judaism would not be two of the four official religions of the Russian Federation, which is a multi-ethnic society with 35 official languages.

    Putin definitely puts Russia first and this includes stopping western corporations taking over Russia's natural resources. This is why he is so vilified in the West - he stood up to the globalists. "Russia is just a gas station posing as a country" John McCain. The ignorance and bigotry and insolence of that statement is just beyond belief.

    Imagine the outrage in Mrcka if Putin said the US is just a giant fast food chain pretending to be a country with culture.

    "prison camps and children, a propaganda network, stacking courts and positions of power with inept flunkies that'll follow orders, etc."

    CNN MSNBC, NYT,, WaPo - are these part of Trumps propaganda network? Has Trump changed the process by which judges are appointed? The answer to these questions is clearly no.

    I think Trump will probably win reelection; definitely if Biden runs against him. OTOH it looks like the powers behind the Democrats, Soros, Bezos, Bloomberg, Silicon Valley monopolists etc want to replace Biden with Cuomo. If Trump does get reelected, I really don't think he'll attempt to push through an Enabling Law.

    I care little about US domestic issues, it's what the US does in the international arena that concerns me. I have to say it appears Trump has resisted immense pressure from the MIC and War Hawks to invade Venezuela, launch a major attack on Iran. or as Hilary intended "stand up" to Russia in Syria (would have been a total and utter f####''' shitshow of a disaster.

  • @u0421793 said:

    Excellent, where’s the source for that (that I may tweet it and give credit?)

    Tumblr :) Good luck....

  • @espiegel123 said:
    @ElectroHead : I agree that people go too easily to the Nazi analogy...often because they don’t fully understand the scale of what Hitler did and how he mobilized most of what was considered the most advanced (technologically and culturally) Western country to become an atrocity machine the scale of which had been previously unknown over a few short years.

    But one might say equating Mussolini with Hitler is a gross distortion.

    Mussolini was terrible and brutal, but his crimes (and crimes they were) were not of the same scale as what Hitler and the Nazis did.

    Trump’s inclinations are more in the Mussolini/Putin direction than the Hitler direction.

    Plenty of people, countries, pandered, apologised, enabled Hitler, to become the outrage he and his followers became, let us not make another mistake like this.

  • @ElectroHead said:
    @kobamoto I'm intrigued. Where exactly can one "fall all the way down to the depths of equality"?

    inside the President's head or the inside of anyone's head whom aspires to be superior to another human being, but one doesn't have to be a stable genius to figure that one out, I'm curious being intrigued by the combination of equality, and the president what are your thought's on his racism and bigotry?

  • edited April 2020

    I don't know why folks think nothing is comparable to Nazis and I completely challenge that notion... Nazis aren't some mythical creatures, they're just racist human beings... hell even the racist compare themselves to nazis because they know what they are and what they think... why should I think any racist isn't comparable to a nazi?

    I think there is too much pride involved in this whole train of thought... Imho what makes a nazi a nazi is not the amount of destruction or evil works one has done it's simply what one is... iow if you killed millions of jews your a nazi but if you killed one jew for the same reason that makes you incomparable to a nazi?.... I don't think so, they are the same thing, it means the same thing to me from the first jew that was killed to the last one...

    Furthermore how does a nazi define him or herself, what are their beliefs..... there are allot of people who share hitlers beliefs and ideology and what... you can't equate them to nazis?........ bs

    that's like calling someone a musician based on how many records they've made.... you don't have to make any records or write any songs to be a musician, you just have to make music... hitler and the people who followed him were nazis long before he mobilized a force.

  • edited April 2020

    @kobamoto I'm curious being intrigued by the combination of equality, and the president what are your thought's on his racism and bigotry?

    You should brush up on syntax and punctuation. Your question is incoherent.

  • edited April 2020

    @ElectroHead said:

    @kobamoto I'm curious being intrigued by the combination of equality, and the president what are your thought's on his racism and bigotry?

    You should brush up on syntax and punctuation. Your question is incoherent.

    you should stop detracting.... it's futile. I'm sure your prowess of syntax will be sufficient to carry us both through the conversation, lets get on with it.

  • the problem with racist these days is that they are pansies, the kind with true grit who can articulate what they stand for honestly are a dying breed... that's why they got this goofball of a president for their ideological leader today... I bet mike pence yells "hail hydra!!!' every time he walks into the Oval Office :D

  • edited April 2020

    @kobamoto said:

    you should stop detracting.... it's futile. I'm sure your prowess of syntax will be sufficient to carry us both through the conversation, lets get on with it.

    Let's not. A prolonged to and fro with someone on a music forum as to whether, or to what degree, the current US President is a Nazi is for me utterly futile. Maybe someone else will take up your challenge.

    If you want to discuss the consequences of the Wuhan Flu on US foreign policy, the future of the US economy, that's something else.

  • the fact that the president of the United States is a racist bigot has everything to do with foreign policy, the economy and the response to this pandemic... .

  • @kobamoto said:
    I don't know why folks think nothing is comparable to Nazis and I completely challenge that notion... Nazis aren't some mythical creatures, they're just racist human beings... hell even the racist compare themselves to nazis because they know what they are and what they think... why should I think any racist isn't comparable to a nazi?

    I think there is too much pride involved in this whole train of thought... Imho what makes a nazi a nazi is not the amount of destruction or evil works one has done it's simply what one is... iow if you killed millions of jews your a nazi but if you killed one jew for the same reason that makes you incomparable to a nazi?.... I don't think so, they are the same thing, it means the same thing to me from the first jew that was killed to the last one...

    Furthermore how does a nazi define him or herself, what are their beliefs..... there are allot of people who share hitlers beliefs and ideology and what... you can't equate them to nazis?........ bs

    that's like calling someone a musician based on how many records they've made.... you don't have to make any records or write any songs to be a musician, you just have to make music... hitler and the people who followed him were nazis long before he mobilized a force.

    The difference is that Nazis weren't just racist. Hitler mobilized the country and created an actual industry of death and made it central to the country's operation. It is a different thing than just persecuting a minority (which is evil in itself). It isn't just the amount of destruction. It is getting a country to accept as normal the mechanization of genocide.

    One might say that the U.S./British slave machinery was something along those lines. Not simply persecuting people but treating the dehumanization and commoditization of those people as morally acceptable and economically necessary.

    These aren't the only example, but they are qualitatively different than large-scale prejudice and discrimination.

    I think the scale is so immense that it is a little hard for people that haven't either been victims of it or studied it more than superficially to have a sense of the scale of the proposition. (Just as most Americans can't come to grips with the centrality of slavery and the dehumanization of Africans as foundational forces that still influence the country).

  • edited April 2020

    that's what I mean by how we define them.... I get that you're defining them by what they did but I feel more appropriate defining them by how they defined themselves, all of the evil they did irregardless of how immense was just an accomplishment in their sick minds, but they were nazis before they did all of that, they were nazis from the beginning and very clearly defined themselves in no uncertain terms. The reason we have nazi skinheads today is not because they served in hitlers force, it's because they share the same definition and ideology.

    I'm not taking anything away from the horror of what they did either, the jews were allowed to keep their names, their language, their culture, and education.... the slaves were not but the ideology of the nazis and slaveholders was the same.... superiority.

  • edited April 2020

    :D

  • @espiegel123 said:

    One might say that the U.S./British slave machinery was something along those lines. Not simply persecuting people but treating the dehumanization and commoditization of those people as morally acceptable and economically necessary.

    These aren't the only example, but they are qualitatively different than large-scale prejudice and discrimination.

    Europeans didn't invent slavery. Slavery was central to the functioning of the Persian and Egyptian empires. Livingston "discovered" large parts of Africa by travelling Arab "trade routes". i.e. slave roads.The first thing Arab slave traders did with newly acquired slaves was to castrate them to prevent them from reproducing in Arab lands.

    The Portuguese were the first Europeans to transport slaves across the Atlantic. Britain was the first country to ban slavery after an outcry when the system became public knowledge.

  • in other words two wrongs don't make a right. lol

  • @kobamoto said:

    I'm not taking anything away from the horror of what they did either, the jews were allowed to keep their names, their language, their culture, and education....

    Until their schools were closed, they were round up and sent to the gas chambers

  • @ElectroHead said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    One might say that the U.S./British slave machinery was something along those lines. Not simply persecuting people but treating the dehumanization and commoditization of those people as morally acceptable and economically necessary.

    These aren't the only example, but they are qualitatively different than large-scale prejudice and discrimination.

    Europeans didn't invent slavery. Slavery was central to the functioning of the Persian and Egyptian empires. Livingston "discovered" large parts of Africa by travelling Arab "trade routes". i.e. slave roads.The first thing Arab slave traders did with newly acquired slaves was to castrate them to prevent them from reproducing in Arab lands.

    The Portuguese were the first Europeans to transport slaves across the Atlantic. Britain was the first country to ban slavery after an outcry when the system became public knowledge.

    Slavery was a central part of the economy of the American colony (pre-independence) and it remained a central driving force.

    Chattel-slavery as practiced in the American colony and later U.S. may not have been unique (which I never implied) but the scale and practice of it was quite different from slavery elsewhere. And to the degree that such practices existed elsewhere: they were also monstrous.

    What-aboutism doesn't absolve people of crimes just because other people have also committed them.

  • @kobamoto said:
    the fact that the president of the United States is a racist bigot has everything to do with foreign policy, the economy and the response to this pandemic... .

  • edited April 2020

    @ElectroHead said:
    @espiegel123

    "Trump’s inclinations are more in the Mussolini/Putin direction than the Hitler direction."

    If Putin was of the "Mussolini persuasion", Islam and Judaism would not be two of the four official religions of the Russian Federation, which is a multi-ethnic society with 35 official languages.

    Putin definitely puts Russia first and this includes stopping western corporations taking over Russia's natural resources. This is why he is so vilified in the West - he stood up to the globalists. "Russia is just a gas station posing as a country" John McCain. The ignorance and bigotry and insolence of that statement is just beyond belief.

    Imagine the outrage in Mrcka if Putin said the US is just a giant fast food chain pretending to be a country with culture.

    "prison camps and children, a propaganda network, stacking courts and positions of power with inept flunkies that'll follow orders, etc."

    CNN MSNBC, NYT,, WaPo - are these part of Trumps propaganda network? Has Trump changed the process by which judges are appointed? The answer to these questions is clearly no.

    I think Trump will probably win reelection; definitely if Biden runs against him. OTOH it looks like the powers behind the Democrats, Soros, Bezos, Bloomberg, Silicon Valley monopolists etc want to replace Biden with Cuomo. If Trump does get reelected, I really don't think he'll attempt to push through an Enabling Law.

    I care little about US domestic issues, it's what the US does in the international arena that concerns me. I have to say it appears Trump has resisted immense pressure from the MIC and War Hawks to invade Venezuela, launch a major attack on Iran. or as Hilary intended "stand up" to Russia in Syria (would have been a total and utter f####''' shitshow of a disaster.

    Hillary, as much as I dislike her and all of her baggage and issues, would've been 10,000,000,000 times a better President (and human being) than Trump. Why? Even if she was as bad as Trump, and she's nowhere near, she also acts to do things for others, not just herself. Both, perhaps, but that's like most politicians. Trump only does Trump, even if it means tens of thousands of Americans will die. <-- the latter is a proven fact already

    We'll never know how Hillary would've been as a President, because the impeached President, Trump, won with the minority of the popular vote, with plenty of at least indirect help. Bringing her into any discussion about Trump starts veering quickly toward both-siderism, which plagues our media and many people, too.

    No, those news sources aren't part of Trump's propaganda network - though they seem easily manipulated. FOX is the propaganda network.

    The US is in deep s**t if Trump gets re-elected. Minority rule, immense economic hardship for anyone not rich or connected, xenophobia, racism, guns, religion, science and education derided and minimized, etc.

    And, yes, McConnel - who is perhaps the only reason Trump is still in office - had, indeed, changed how judges are appointed. Even to the Supreme Court.

    Pretty much, it's easy to spot where you're wrong or ignorant on these topics.

  • edited April 2020

    @ElectroHead, I am equating this character with the origins of autocracy. You could have easily said the same thing about Hitler and the Hitman he came to be. No false analogy here. Trump would be a Hitler full blown in a nanosecond if he could. And if you don’t think so it is blindness, and a lack of psychological understanding.... and you could ask the millions of dead Jews who thought H was a flash in the pan and would blow over. Rationality and human decency often does not prevail.

    As a Jew and sharing the thousand years of persecution of my tribe (that is if you believe there is a collective unconscious, which I totally do), I feel as entitled to talk about my tribal understanding as blacks have a right to feeling the impact of slavery on their consciousness. To sweep it away and say pshaw, it is nothing like it, IMO, is superficial and dangerous to all or personal futures.

    The best anyone without direct or collective experience can do is read Orwell. The signs he points to are all here in our society in doubleplus mass quantities. If, as the saying goes, your neighbor loses his job it is a recession. If you lose your job it is a depression, then. similarly, unless authoritarianism touches you directly it is all too easy to brush off the ill smelling harbingers of it.

    @espiegel123, tho I admire you greatly, you may be too levelheaded to appreciate The historical cognates we are now enduring. Wait till the economic conditions are truly upon us and you will see the worms hatch out of the ground.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    What-aboutism doesn't absolve people of crimes just because other people have also committed them.

    I was just stating facts. Are you in favour of "reparations" by white US citizens to black US citizens because of the deeds of a small minority of the formers' ancestors? How far can that route be taken? Should England demand reparations from Norway and Denmark for the Viking invasions?

  • @LinearLineman said:
    @ElectroHead, I am equating this character with the origins of autocracy. You could have easily said the same thing about Hitler and the Hitman he came to be. No false analogy here. Trump would be a Hitler full blown in a nanosecond if he could. And if you don’t think so it is blindness, and a lack of psychological understanding.... and you could ask the millions of dead Jews who thought H was a flash in the pan and would blow over. Rationality and human decency often does not prevail.

    As a Jew and sharing the thousand years of persecution of my tribe (that is if you believe there is a collective unconscious, which I totally do), I feel as entitled to talk about my tribal understanding as blacks have a right to feeling the impact of slavery on their consciousness. To sweep it away and say pshaw, it is nothing like it, IMO, is superficial and dangerous to all or personal futures.

    The best anyone without direct or collective experience can do is read Orwell. The signs he points to are all here in our society in doubleplus mass quantities. If, as the saying goes, your neighbor loses his job it is a recession. If you lose your job it is a depression, then. similarly, unless authoritarianism touches you directly it is all too easy to brush off the ill smelling harbingers of it.

    @espiegel123, tho I admire you greatly, you may be too levelheaded to appreciate The historical cognates we are now enduring. Wait till the economic conditions are truly upon us and you will see the worms hatch out of the ground.

    Well said.

    As of now, there's strong parallels with the current regime and that other one. So strong, that they could, as you said, easily tip the wrong direction. So strong, that it's physically sickening what they do, and that so many people seem to be willing to go along with and do what they're told... just following orders (directly or for appeasement).

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