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Comments
@JoyceRoadStudios @tahiche I couldn't agree with you guys more. I've invested tons of time and money into amp sims yet I nearly always prefer playing through Gain Stage Vintage Clean. Organic and beautiful every time with minimal effort. Straight up or followed by all sorts of effects (e.g. Gauss, TTAP, Kosmonaut, Delay3000, Alteza, Slow Machine, MixBox...).
Any guitarist reading this who doesn't already own it or hasn't used it recently, you've gotta check it out.
Yes, I’m impressed. I might be getting a bit philosophical here, but why “emulate”?. We try to emulate guitar amps cos that what we’re used to. The closer the better.
Now, is a guitar amp the proven best way a guitar can sound? No, I don’t think so, it’s just what we’re used to. And here’s GSVC making your guitar sound really nice but in a way being more “sincere” in not trying to fake a heavy set of equipment. So what if it’s an algorithm?. That said, they did chicken out a bit labeling it as an amp 😜. I applaud the approach.
@JoyceRoadStudios are you saying it doesn’t take pedals well?.
Yes and No. It’s a big topic of discussion that I’ll try to stab at right now.
I have posted before about putting Nembrini tube screamer cranked, in front of GSVC with its input and output slightly lowered, and room set to large. It sounds amazing. So when we are talking about boost or overdrive pedals, GSVC takes them very well.
However, there’s a big distinction between guitar amp sims we know and use, and something like GSVC which is more of a preamp with the eq shape of a guitar amp with added spacial features. Guitar amps sims or rigs like bias or th-u are a recipe of several components. They actually go through the process of designing all the stages of the amp, the preamp and power amp stage, the cabinet and speaker output stage. So you have the direct amp sound which on its own sounds terrible and unusable, and it needs the cabinet emulation or impulse response to actually sound like a guitar amp. Normally when we build a guitar chain it goes pedal pedal pedal pedal amp head then cabinet, or if we place it like an fx send return it would go amp head pedal pedal pedal then cabinet, or pedal pedal amp cabinet pedal pedal, right? GSVC does not function in a way that separates the amp stage from the cabinet stage. It’s one and the same, like PSA1000, like FabFilter Saturn, etc. Essentially these types of apps are filters and saturators and tone shapers. For example the MixBox guitar modules offer “cabinet size” as a knob, but you’re not using them as a direct amp signal being amplified with the output of a cabinet or IR.
My point is that when you place modulation or filter pedals like reverb, echo, either before or after GSVC, they’re altering the entire stage, and if you have the GSVC room size on, it can sound wrong or off. Because with a regular guitar amp sim these pedals are interacting just with the amp stage not the cabinet. Does that make sense? I don’t like to use IRs with GSVC or MixBox guitar modules, nor the “guitar” presets in Saturn etc.. because it doesn’t sound right to me. They’re already shaped with a “cabinet” as part of the sound. The recipe of direct or “bypassed” guitar amp like Nembrini plus a cabinet or IR is quite different from a preamp type or modular type of filter app.
Think about this, you said yourself that GSVC comes off like an amazing mic pre in a room. So imagine puffing that sound up with additional reverbs and flangers etc... it would sound bad in that room because you’re doing it after the cabinet stage. That’s the big distinction for me. You’re feeding pedals into the entire module rather than just into the amp stage.
It just so happens that GSVC is eq shaped for guitar and is amazing, but it functions similarly to something like PSA or Saturn. There’s already a spacial component involved. So you can add pedals after GSVC like a delay or reverb, essentially like an fx send return, but it’s harder to get it right and the GSVC room size should be off. But I don’t see how putting your pedals before GSVC could yield good results, except for boost and overdrive. Certainly traditional guitar amp sims are more built for that. And to reiterate, using an impulse response after GSVC as an additive doesn’t work for me or for my ears. Anyone care to chime in? I’m sure someone could describe what I’m talking about in more scientific terms.
Effects should go before GSVC not after, for sure, just like with any amp, really. And no IR, doesn’t make sense to double the cab or space effect.
That being said I don’t get the difference with other amp sims like Nembrini or THU. The “default” way with Nembrini or any amp Is to plug effects before the amp. Maybe you’re talking about a send/return setup with amp head > fx > cab/IR. But that’s not the usual “plug and play”. Obviously putting fx after the amp app (GSVC, Nembrini or whatever) is not optimal unless you look for weird spaces. But I said, that goes for any amp sim with cabinets or whatever.
As for the “complete amp chain” to recreate. Yes I know, but my point is. Why try to mimic that?. The head+cabinet is derived from “real life” mechanics, but we’re in the digital realm. The Fender ‘65 or whatever your favorite amp, is your favorite amp sound, but is it the best sound possible?. It seems like we haven’t looked beyond “amp sounds”, maybe we’re too used to them.
Not necessarily, for me anyway. I love juggling effects around, before and after the "amp", just to see (hear) what happens. Sometimes wrapping the GSVC "room" in a more expansive reverb or delay works well.
Eh? I've never heard this or worked this way. I've always thought of FX by type as pre and post by default.
While it can be cool to send chorused or delayed guitar through an amp, it's not something I would normally do.
+1
Some of the effect order conventions (i.e. nothing between the amp and cabinet) are related to the electrical circuits that effects were designed for.
It is (as some have noted) perfectly normal to have effects between the preamp and power amp. The reason you never put effects after the power amp -- is because power amp output signal with very different characteristics than effects are designed for. You would wreck a delay by plugging your power amp's output directly into it. It's just a limitation of the physical circuits.
But in software that is a non-issue. There is no reason why you can't put a reverb or chorus or whatever after an amp sim.
Sure, we like amp sims because we are accustomed to how amps sound and often want to achieve those sounds, but that doesn't indicate some lack of imagination (though for some that might be the case) -- that's also why we like equal-temperament and 12-note octaves -- convention is a pretty central aspect of how are mind organizes around music and sound. We've got decades of people developing equipment that creates sounds that satisfy our ears -- and so much of the time, we want equipment that lets use recreate those sounds to a satisfying degree and then adding our own little twists.
My FX order preferences have nothing whatever to do with electrical circuits and everything to do with the sound. Pushing a flanged guitar signal into a distortion or amp is going to come up with a radically different sound than pushing a distorted or amped signal into a flanger. Placing a reverb before the amp is going to give some very different results.
Yes, they are driven by what I'm used to hearing. And yes, with software there are no rules. And Yes, breaking those rules is fun and useful. But "default" conventions is what I was commenting on.
Perhaps, I expressed myself poorly. I was addressing the notion that there is a canonical order that one must/should follow which was suggested earlier in the thread. Such conventions were largely the result of circuit design and one now has freedom to try things one couldn't. That's all that I was saying.
Rules can definitely be broken in the software realm, and experimenting is of course fun. And as has been stated, if you dig how it sounds then it doesn’t matter if you were using default conventions or just playing around and came up with something you love. I usually put all my pedals before the amp, but I have also put something like Blackhole after the cab or IR with great results. I don’t know for sure how Nembrini is structured and whether the chain is circular or one way, but in th-u it’s obvious that the chain is circular. Countless presets with pedals before the amp and also after the amp and coming out of every side of a dual amp setup, so either it doesn’t matter or th-u knows which pedals are pre and which are send/return. It comes down to what you want to get out of the experience, whether it’s some sort of “authenticity” or “experimentation”. I have found that actually following tradition and recreating a “real” guitar chain gets me better results, but that’s because it’s what I’m looking for. My original point was that working with a traditional guitar amp sim that has a recipe of components just like a real guitar amp vs something like GSVC which combines the amp and cabinet, it’s a different experience. In theory the fx are feeding just the direct amp portion or they’re feeding both amp/cab together, there’s a sonic difference to me. I love GSVC exactly for what it is, a beautiful and glassy clean sound that you can tweak, but building a chain of fx around it, to my ears, is not as “authentic” because the amp and cabinet are combined. But that’s my experience.
I’m specifically talking about how it sounds to me. My experimenting with GSVC and ordering things all over the place has led to some really bad sounds, yet on iOS GSVC is still my favorite overall clean tone or preamp or whatever you call it.
Guitar amp sim designers have gone through the trouble of making a direct amp signal, pre amp and power amp stage, cabinet emulation or IR, there has to be a reason for that, and not just so that customers think it’s real or so they can replace the cabinet. In the same way someone who designs a preamp or a direct load box or whatever you can plug your guitar directly into in a studio, there’s merit to it. Think a real vintage Vox AC30 vs Strymon Iridium emulation of it. They will not react the exact same way when you place your pedal boards around it. These different approaches in design react differently to the fx you surround them with, even if you take the realism of a loud blaring cabinet out of the equation. I can’t treat GSVC or PSA1000 as a “guitar amp”, because that’s not exactly what they are. But they are obviously great for guitar, just that they require different approach.
Now I'm motivated to create a rig with:
Just because I can without voiding any warrantees. I suspect some of the stages will
add their magic ju ju and I'll get a fairly typical guitar rig tone depending upon the
audio quality of the overdrive pedal.
Basically each of these modules perform an EQ and spectral/time transformation and
they are NOT equivalent to the devices they emulate mathematically.
Btw, just thought I'd add that back in the day, recording engineers sometimes worked around not being able to put effects after the power amp, but applying effects to the recorded signal after the fact which effectively put the effect after the power amp -- just not in real-time.
Then we hit the 90's and FX were added after the "Record Store" stage and the lawyers
exploded with "rights" actions. Good times... Digital Alternate Realities... with some Bad Times added in the final mix. Wobble and Warp.
So, @JoyceRoadStudios, has your opinion of the new Fender Twin changed at all since your first experience with it?
Also interested in how others rank it compared to the other Overloud Fender rig options...
I’m ecstatic to have a Twin, Super, Tremolux, & Bassman for under $100. No weight, no maintenance.
I also have a few others. I’d get the Twin or Tremolux if you want clean.
@SNystrom @audiobussy @McD @espiegel123
When it comes to the TH-U Fender Rigs, which are all made in partnership with Choptones, you really can’t go wrong! Everyone has their real life favorite and their opinion of what the best Fender amp of all time is. But when it comes to choosing the rigs, the devil is in the details. We are talking about the proprietary “Rig Player” tech which is similar to Kemper, and that aspect is the same across the board. The big difference is that in each case the actual specimen of the real amp used for each Rig is not created equal. This is an important post I’ve wanted to write for a while, so let’s look at the different specimens and why it matters when you choose your Rig. The details are right there in Overloud’s marketing materials:
The Fender Bassman rig is an actual 1970 Fender Bassman 50. It is a silverface head that was introduced in 1968 during the cbs era. Some people say they’re of lesser quality than the pre-cbs era Bassman, while others actually prefer them. It’s important to note that this isn’t the 1959 tweed Bassman combo nor its current reissue which sells for $1500 new. This is a vintage 1970 Bassman 50 head that sells used for around $800. This is the specimen Choptones captured and it’s my favorite rig in the th-u collection. It can do deep rich cleans, balanced, ice-pick, low harmonic distortion, and takes distortion and overdrive pedals really well. It can be gnarly or pristine clean. Handwired.
The Fender Tremolux rig is an actual 1963 Fender Tremolux that has a blackface body but a blonde grill. It was produced only for a few years, 1963-1966, and its collector status makes it worth many thousands of dollars. If I’m not mistaken it has one of those original Fender “tremolo”circuits, rather than the “vibrato” circuit that came soon after. The actual rig captures in this collection don’t employ the tremolo effect from the amp, but in the preset bank for this amp they employ the AmpTrem pedal from Overloud collection which is great. It’s sort of like how the rig player doesn’t necessarily advertise how much “reverb” was used in their captures from the actual amp circuits that have reverb knobs. You can’t undo tremolo so presenting the rigs without it is a good idea. The AmpTrem pedal is based on similar circuit anyway. (Besides that you will see that other amps that have special buttons like “bright” or “punch” or whatever unique features an amp channel has, those are stated and available throughout the various captures per rig). Anyway, the Tremolux rig is also vintage and my second favorite. It’s absolutely beautiful and captures the Fender jangle, but also does vintage distortion really well. Handwired.
The Fender Twin rig is a Fender ‘65 Twin Reverb re-issue blackface combo. It is a meticulous re-issue that currently sells new for around $1700. It is not an original 1965 but it’s probably the most highly regarded re-issue that Fender makes. The re-issue was originally introduced in 1992 and while it may not use the exact same speakers of an original ‘65, it doesn’t really matter since Overloud captures the rigs with many different speakers, not just the stock ones. It’s a printed circuit rather than hand-wired. It’s currently my third favorite of the Fender rigs. Lots of clean headroom, balanced sound, some good growl.
The Fender Edge rig is a Fender The Edge Deluxe signature amp that was released around 2016. It is a modified Fender tweed deluxe 5e3 circuit which is legendary. As per The Edge’s requests, the speakers were changed to alnico blues and the tubes have also been modded. So it’s a variation of a tweed deluxe that is louder but also breaks sooner, it is a Vox like Fender. It’s regarded as one of the best limited run amps they’ve ever released and costs a couple grand, but it’s not for sale anywhere anymore as far as I can see. It’s my fourth favorite rig. It sounds gnarly and scooped as you’d expect from a tweed deluxe. It has grit but also can be in your face clean if you want, and it can retain overdrive at lower volumes. Handwired.
The Fender Super Reverb rig is a Fender Super Reverb ’65 Reissue which was originally released in 2001 and costs $1700 brand new today. It’s a printed circuit rather than handwired, but the big deal with this rig is it was modded by choptones to more vintage spec. This quote is direct from the site... “ A real old and vintage Super Reverb will definitely be a jaw-dropping musical weapon, but if you cannot find that 60’s one, you can do like us, finely tuning our sample using old caps, transformers and real singing vintage 10 inch CTS speakers, turning it from a great amp to an amazing one.” This rig is noticeably darker sounding than the other Fenders, which some may prefer. There’s a beautiful moody quality to this darkness and it’s my fifth favorite of the Fender rigs.
The Fender 68 Princeton rig is a Fender ’68 Custom Princeton Reverb that was released in 2014. It’s not an original and it’s also not the re-issue line which already has a ‘65 Princeton reverb re-issue model. This is its own ‘68 Princeton which sells as a combo for around $1000 new. It’s not a loud amp nor is it vintage spec, it is designed with less negative feedback and less headroom. It’s supposed to take pedals really well and it’s very touch sensitive. I haven’t explored this rig too much but have found it pretty balanced and a little dry, though quite beautiful. Printed circuit rather than handwired but it has some interesting modern design features which players appreciate.
In conclusion, when shopping for the Rigs, whether it’s Fender or another brand, it’s important to study the actual specimen used in the capture. Overloud uses re-issues, real vintage amps, amps at a friend’s house, modded or hot rodded versions of amps, re-tubed amps. The details are all available in the marketing materials. So, are you looking for an old vintage amp profile, a modern custom shop amp, a great re-issue, an amp which had its trouble spots or fail components updated? The devil is in the details! Cheers!
@JoyceRoadStudios Amazing post, as usual
Excellent. Thank you!
No kidding...
I concur that Tremolux and Bassman are exceptional, so much so that I haven’t bought any more rigs since getting those. Vintage Collection 2 has some very good Fenders as well, IMO.
Today I saw the light (from THU)! Before that, I only used this app as a free AUv3 tuner in a Nembrini-Caliverb setup in AUM (great!), But after reading @JoyceRoadStudios ' reviews I couldn't resist and bought the Choptones Fend Trem63 rig. And then I immersed myself more in THU: what a surprise! Four free amps and cabs, seven free pedals: overdrive, flanger, chorus, tremolo, delay, reverb and parametric EQ plus a free splitter + mixer to drive multiple amps! And then this great sounding Fender Tremolux! All this for only € 19.99. "My food has been bought" (in terms of guitar via the iPad), as we say here in the Netherlands ("Mijn kostje is gekocht"), and I have removed IAA-apps like Tonestack and Bias FX for good. Thank you @JoyceRoadStudios and others...
I’m glad your food has been bought for € 19.99. That was the premise of the original post. Tremolux is a great amp – – – enjoy!
I’m enjoying learning about the subtle differences in the Fender line. @JoyceRoadStudios ‘ eloquence and golden ear have cost me some money though.
JoyceRoad convinced me to give simulators another go; I had been using a Strymon Iridium for iOS recording (it still rules, just in the name of variety). These are great, I got both the Twin Reverb and The Edge one (cause tweedy with earlier breakup is exactly what I want). The latter is especially ideal for a Tele bridge pickup. Haven’t pulled out the Tele Deluxe for them yet, but I definitely know the quality is there.
My only complaint is most of the presets/rigs are a tad too bassy, at least over Sony 7506’s. But that may be a personal thing; I like my guitars sharp and right on the edge before it gets to harsh levels, a real lean sound. It’s gotta sparkle!
Honestly the first time I’ve been 96% happy with an iOS amp simulator. And I’ve tried them all.
I’m glad you like it. Last year I was shopping around for iOS sims all at the same time without having had any of them before, and th-u and Nembrini stood head and shoulders above everything else. With the Rigs you really do get “authentic” amps that could fool almost anyone in an A/B comparison with the real amp, and the tube-like feel and response is almost there. It’s our iOS Kemper. Nembrinis, when you ignore the presets and heavily tweak them, and add your own IRs, are also stupendous. I liked GE Labs for a while, but I find their fx and pedals to be of lesser quality than the th-u collection, and to my ears there’s always a digital tail in the texture when the chords trail off, it just doesn’t cascade right to me. But Ge Labs is a huge step up from Bias, which I find tonally deficient. I actually like how Amplitube sounds overall, but it doesn’t inspire me.
Interesting observation about the rigs being too bassy. I also use the Sony 7506s exclusively and do not find them bassy. In comparison I have found Nembrini to be extremely bassy, so much so that the sympathetic vibrations rattle the entire headphone. I have to reign it in all the time. I rarely if ever adjust the th-u rigs or presets, but I wonder if you just turn down the bass knob one or two notches, perhaps that would satisfy you. You are totally right about a Tele bridge pickup and bridge position in general for the rig. It’s a really rowdy tweed sound, sometimes even thuddy, that’s the Voxy part of it to me. I must confess that I’ve only played the Edge rig with my Les Paul, but I always play that in the bridge position, and I play the strats in third of fifth position also. I never play in the neck position on any of my guitars really, unless I’m specifically playing dark clean jazz or something similar. The neck pickup has to be perfectly set to bring out the glassy and woodsy quality of the guitar, otherwise it’s always bassy or muddy. Perhaps that’s why I’ve never noticed much bassyness, I’m more sensitive to muddiness or thinness due to overcompression. And I constantly vacillate between wanting a guitar tone that’s all mids or all scooped. Th-u in general really shines in the lower mids and in the overall balance, imho.
I’m totally with you about that need for “sparkle” it’s almost harsh-like, and why in real life I’ve always loved the vintage Music Man amps. The Edge rig is truly grrrrrrrr on that kerrraannnng, but it has quite a scoop to the sound which some may perceive as more “distant”. I know I’m beating a dead horse, but the Bassman rig can have a really in your face ice-pick and sparkly presence, it’s less scooped but has really similar qualities. It’s rather full and rich instead of dark and bassy. I don’t find the Edge rig dark or bassy but perhaps a little more compressed. They are phenomenal at straddling that line between vintage and modern. Another rig I would highly recommend is the Mesa Boogie MarkV, specifically because it had the “Tweed” channel. While it’s a small section of the rig profiles, that tweed channel is really responsive and sparkly. In fact, I’ve been using the “tweed clean” preset from the MarkV to record most guitar parts. If you’re looking for tweed and Mesa tones in one amp, MarkV is the rig. The Friedman rigs I have like Fried Betty and BE50 also have an awesome American sound, but they’re extremely pronounced in the mids and have a thickness to them. Beautiful though. The Fried Betty has a gorgeous natural echo in the top end, it sings like a violin or something.
Meanwhile I’ve also been drooling for a Strymon Iridium and checking reverb.com for a deal every day (the fact that it’s hardware and takes pedals is a big deal). And dreaming of a butterscotch ‘52 tele re-issue for decades. I’ll make you a deal, sell me your Strymon and Tele and I’ll buy you all the rigs you want 🤣🤣🤣
I’m sorry! But I know you get it! Your original post arrived at the exact moment I was privately gushing over the Fender rigs. And almost 900 comments later we’re still trying to convince people! Maybe we should keep our secrets. When I started with my first 3 Fender rigs (SRev, Bassman, Edge) I forgot that I wasn’t playing a real amp. That’s how good they sound. I’m also mad at myself for having around 35 rigs, which is about 30 more than I would ever need or even have time for. It’s embarrassing, but it was worth it I guess.
It was worth it for those that followed. Maybe someone from TH-U will notice our conversation and slip you some promo codes for additional reviews.
The first time I noticed this was with the Cali Reverb, and it bugged the hell out of me. Then I did some reading on the amp itself (non-sim), and found a lot of people saying that it is a very bassy amp. Solutions were to just turn down the bass to almost nothing, or drive it with a screamer at the front end.
With the amp heavily driven I don't notice it as much, but at low gain settings it is unmistakable. Great high-gain amp though.
The devs are very responsive to my emails about feature requests and bugs, and that’s good enough for me. But I should start putting out more video/audio that highlights the differences/awesomenesses so as to make use of my bounty. Anyway if I get around to successfully recording a full album where the guitars are all th-u, I should be paying them 🤣.
I love the Cali Reverb for a clean rockabilly or tweed like tone as well, especially the “Crystal Clean Rev” preset. I owned a Mesa Trem-o-Verb 2x12 combo exactly 21 years ago, the reverb circuit was gorgeous, and the Cali Reverb really got that right. They are of course amps with a lot of hair in the bass, which could partly be due to the cabinet section. I find most of the Nembrini amps bassy, especially the Soldano and the Peavey, but I wonder if it has to do with the fact that we use headphones a lot of the time. Maybe in a live application it is actually preferable, since for recording guitars get low cut all the time. All this to say I find it a “realistic” hurdle of these amps rather than annoying. Nembrinis are unruly amps in a good way. Th-u has a more polished sound in the lower mids, and for recording it’s really great, but through an frfr I’ve actually leaned to Nembrini.
Also important to use your own IRs like the great OwnHammers, because the can both tighten the bass response and make the top end less harsh, while adding life and better dynamic response at the same time.