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OT: I live in the US and I voted today!
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According to one exit poll, 19% of people who voted for Trump were dishonest about or hid their voting from friends and family (compared to 8% who did the same for Biden).
1 in 5...
I have mixed feelings about Robert Reynolds. He went over the top with @Max23 and he called me a drunkard several times. Lol, I’m heading for NJ where they just legalized pot.
However, he did apologize to me and, tho we are not friends, the hostilities between us ceased. Even tho we are on opposite ends of the political of the spectrum, we connected over music and interactions were genial.
He was one of the few right wingers left here. I guess I feel there should be a place for these views here, even tho I find them abhorrent. Of course he wouldn’t have been banned, I think, except for the insult.
But I can’t help but think he was banned for his politics.
If Biden is elected he will have to try and perform the miracle of getting “us” and “them” talking again.
Is it impossible? I like to think if Robert and I could do it maybe others can as well.
As usual, you’re decent, admirable guy, @LinearLineman.
Sadly too many on the other side are unable to understand the meaning of those two descriptive words.
I truly appreciate all the thoughtful comment you have contributed to this thread.
@LinearLineman : it is unlikely that he was banned for his political views. Michael doesn't work like that. He got banned for the hostile way he treated someone with whom he disagreed. I think that we shouldn't confuse being a bully and name caller with being politically conservative. Disagreeing with people is one thing -- just insulting them is something else.
Unfortunately, Trumpism has dominated American conservative politics -- and Trumpism is dominated by a bullying ethos -- which often combines bullying people while at the same time complaining that one is the victim. Trump has made it socially acceptable in a way that it wasn't before.
@LinearLineman was it his politics or the way he (re)presented them? There’s a certain degree of aggression that all too often seems paired with the Right (and in this case the Orange).
I love the idea of opposing sides making amends and in the microcosm of this forum we’re connected by the passion of making music. Despite everything else going on that’s our common ground and one that hopefully extends our ability to connect, forgive and relate.
Humans ideally would be connected by their humanity but I wonder if that’s present and tangible enough in these tense times.
@SNystrom @espiegel123 @Proppa, I appreciate the comments and agree. However, presenting an opposing and unpleasant viewpoint is always met here with stern or sarcastic rebuke. From me, as well.
And, damn, it feels good.... for good and not so good reasons.
I don’t have an answer. I’ve seen several voices disappear here, and, strangely, I’ve regretted each of them, tho I no longer remember their names. I just feel.... something. That it is the best we can do, and that @Michael has a knack for making the right decisions... yet, it isn’t how it “should” be... and that something is amiss. A microcosm of the world outside. That it is all Lord of the Flies when one belongs to a tribe.
There are those here who point out that this is not a place to express these concerns and POVs. I disagree. It is a good place to talk about such stuff... if you want that as part of a virtual community experience. It’s here if you want it. There are no rules or trespasses here except civility. And Robert couldn’t control his anger and frustration or his civility... so it wasn’t cause he was being political, of course. But, in a way, we got him to that point politically, or tribally maybe.
I am not criticizing anyone here. Just trying to understand human dynamics and what is going on in the US, cause 70,000,000 adults just voted for someone 99% of us here can clearly see is hateful, corrupt and abominable. It gives one pause.
@LinearLineman : he literally said that he knew he would be banned for attacking the other AB member when he did it. It had nothing to do with politics. Nothing about having strong political views necessitates attacking someone. You can criticize people’s views without attacking them.
Hopefully when President Biden passes the stimulus package, the greatest vote in Presidential history, will, protest the Senate to get it passed.
Just a cool-off ban for RR, btw, not permanent, although he may decide not to return
Unfortunately there’s only one world.
What did you take away from the conversation that you understand?
Interested to hear this.
As painful as this thread has been to watch at times, it’s ones like this that make this forum better than nearly everything else. Of course it was not right for the insults to take place, and the punishment fits the crime.
I think @LinearLineman is on to something though. We need to be able to meet each other in the middle, at the very least to talk to each other in a civil way, and for all the sarcasm and personal attacks here sometimes, I see this forum as a place where there is engagement between “sides.” In the “real world” there are people and members of families that don’t even speak to each other because of this stuff.
I am reminded of a quote from That Hideous Strength by C.S. Lewis, published in 1945. One of the “elite” of the antagonists is describing:
“ Isn’t it absolutely essential to keep a fierce Left and a fierce Right, both on their toes and each terrified of the other? That’s how we get things done.”
We need to be meeting each other in the center, with the fundamental understanding that every person has dignity.
The US right is one step away from fascism at the moment. I don't feel the need to meet them part way there. Particularly as they have zero respect for you politically.
Depends upon what you want to get done I guess. If you think Roosevelt was the more successful president ever, then the answer to this is no. You want a terrified right and a fierce left (not Pelosi left - Bernie/squad left).
I live in a red state and know plenty of Republicans, and am fine at getting along with them despite my politics being considerably to the left of AOC. But I'm not going to pretend that their political views are anything other than abhorrent. Mostly I get along by just trying to avoid all discussion of politics, and tuning out when they have one of their rants. Their politics is not based upon anything real. Its fantasy, and a rather disturbed fantasy at that.
If you want to know what a moderate Republican thinks then watch Fox news for a couple of hours, because that's what they think (they're not very moderate, but they're sufficiently socialized so that they know when to shut up). If you want to know what a hardcore Republican thinks - then go to some of the rightwing conspiracy theories. If you want to know what lunatic Republicans think - it's QAnon.
This idea that Republicans (which is different from Republican voters) have views worth listening to is just silly.
I think you’ve just proved @LinearLineman and my point that we need to try harder. It can’t be complete shut off. We need to be talking with each other. When I say meet at the center I am not saying “meet halfway to fascism.” I’m not saying to pretend that something is what it isn’t. I am saying extend a hand in dialogue and the basic respect that is due to each human being simply for being a human.
There is a reason Hitler numbered a prominent philosopher, Dietrich Von Hildebrand, as his primary enemy. It wasn’t some violent and insulting person but someone who could use logic, reason, and philosophy to combat the insanity and evil of fascism.
Before you go on saying that “you can’t use reason with these people,” that is precisely what I am saying. And it may help not to put people in boxes, and to drop the adjective name calling. Not every Republican is a QAnon believer. Not every Democrat is a “rabid communist.” Not every human being is an American.
We’ve got to get back to common decency and talking through these things together. And it may require some vulnerability. We need to have a thick skin to have these conversations.
....a few points. I doubt if anyone will respond because no one had the courage to respond to my previous comments. If your Syrian, Libyan, Afghani or Iraqi , you couldn't care less who's elected. They know the criminal american foreign policies will continue unmolested, because americans only care about politics when it affects them personally. The vietnam war lasted another 3 years after the draft ended, essentially unhindered by any lingering protest. Only those stupid enough to enlist would now die, so what's to protest, even if cia were assassinating vietnamese, laotian, and cambodian civilians. During Obama's administration , we had, on the surface , a liberal democratic president....who also was a war criminal who took personal pride in choosing his targeted assassinations. He exclusively used double-tap drone assassinations to murder first responders to the initial drone strike, killing over 2800 women and children. He dropped 29,000 bombs his last year in office and for this he won a Nobel Prize. Can't fool the ruling class when it came to the fake war on terror ! The Clinton administration was a humanitarian embarrassment. They refined 'balkanization' in Yugoslavia, and gave cia full reign to become the biggest drug smuggler in the world. The Bush's ....well papi was cia all the way. Most likely engineered the assassination of Kennedy because he'd threatened to shut them down. Bush jr was front and center when cia pulled off 911, with mossad and the saudis help. A little known fact about Bush Sr is that one of his biggest business partners was John Hinckley Sr. Now think again about the Reagan assassination attempt. Your free press is a joke. Cia also have engineered the drug war in Mexico, where over 100,000 people are 'disappeared. They traded guns smuggled south for c140 planes filled with coke flying into their secret bases in Nevada. And la te da te da.....so the question is...why anyone would vote at all, because all the political insiders should know the truth about their government...and have done absolutely nothing but enrich their own pockets, including biden. I'm probably the only person here that is on record on national tv (mexican) adamantly voicing against trump, since his first week in office where he verbally attacked Mexico. But how can anyone vote for Biden as well ?? It's come down to voting for the lesser evil, and that's fuxed up. Ralph Nader, as I mentioned earlier gave americans a pathway to their freedom. Don't vote. When you vote, you engender not only support for the existing system, but also approval. Does anyone here really approve of the murder of 20 million people by our government since Kennedy was assassinated ? Because that's when the ruling class pulled of the coup, and that's when cia took complete control of the US's foreign policy. And Biden won't change one iota. He's part and partial of the corrupt pieces of shite running the USa. His adminstration engineered a coup in Ukraine, overthrowing a democratically pro-russian govt ( on their border) and then proceeded to send in his own family members to suck alittle ukrainian blood wealth their way. Really, I can't figure it out. The whole world sees the vast truth, everyone but americans. You must have alot of subliminal messages in your breakfast cereals.
I am reminded of a quote from That Hideous Strength by C.S. Lewis, published in 1945. One of the “elite” of the antagonists is describing:
“ Isn’t it absolutely essential to keep a fierce Left and a fierce Right, both on their toes and each terrified of the other? That’s how we get things done.”
——————
I think a fierce Left and a fierce Right in 1945 was probably quite different in 1945 than it is today.
We've basically had political gridlock for well over a decade and hatred for each other's political differences has risen exponentially in the past four years — thanks to a wickedly evil dictator wanna-be.
I have childhood friends who I used to talk to every single day that I have blocked out of my life because I'm so thoroughly disgusted with the vile and hateful crap they spew with ever-increasing fervor.
I often wonder if they always held these beliefs, or was it something Faux News indoctrinated into them over the decades and Donnie encouraged them to unleash upon the world.
Worst of all, I myself have become a lower-quality person. As a result, I've pretty much adopted a
zero-tolerance for bullshit policy. I flip-off rednecks in pick-ups flying Trump or confederate (as if there's a difference) flags, I glare at morons in stores proudly flaunting mask requirements. I now find myself looking at everyone I see or meet through a scrutinizing judgmental lens. "Hmmm, this person seems pretty cool. I can't wait to discover what I hate about them."
I think that this is perhaps the worst part of this hurtful divide. Take a moment to reflect upon yourself. Are you a better or worse person than you were four years ago?
@SNystrom I think self reflection is good. I think it would be a mistake to place the full blame on any changes in our character on the great divide. It is up to us to bridge this divide, not use it as a scapegoat.
And you are right in a sense, 1945 was different than today. But in many ways it is the same.
It’s really difficult to meet people halfway on this considering what Trump represents. Blind ignorance isn’t really an excuse to me if that’s what it is, there’s a wealth of factual information one can find to inform themselves.
I agree it can be difficult. I’m advocating dialogue so that we can better come to a more unified, dignified position. But we can’t expect the government to be responsible for fixing this divide. We have to do this ourselves.
The Republican party of that era had the politics of the modern Democratic party. Unions were very powerful. Society was a lot more economically equal. I don't see a lot of similarity TBH.
The notion that people should always meet the “other” side in the middle is preposterous. Sometime the other side has reasonable positions in which case it makes sense...in other cases, the position may be monstrous.
You will also note that in the case of the current GOP, they don’t compromise. What they mean is : “you accept some version of our proposal.” The GOP has no interest in compromising their extremist vision to be in line with the majority ...
If someone believes there are good reasons to support Trump, let them say it publicly where those positions can be scrutinized for truth. It is a simple fact that Trump espouses lies as truth...this applies to all facets of his life and is well documented.
@espiegel123 Again, I’m not saying compromising your position. This is precisely the point - it appears that society can’t accept dialogue when one side vehemently opposes the other. We need to do better. If I had to “do battle” with words or with bodies, which one takes its toll more on humanity? I’m saying we shouldn’t shrink away from discussions with people who have even monstrous positions. We need to enter into those difficult conversations so that we can work toward healing the divide. If we just throw our hands up and say “Can’t argue with the crazy” then we have lost the battle.
If I socialize with them then I don't think I've shut them off. After 20 years and watching them spout increasingly radical and unhinged views I choose to avoid discussing politics with them because it's pointless. Sorry, but you're not going to change their minds with reasoned debate. That's a westwing fantasy.
I know what they think because they've told me and I've seen what they post on Facebook. They have their own 'facts' and as they say - you have your sources (most the Financial Times, because it's good) and they have their sources (Fox News, World Net Daily, etc). Plus it's really not fun arguing about antifa super soldiers. Or whether Pelosi is a communist.
I mean we're friends... so I feel I'm doing that? I don't respect their political views because they're crazy. I also have a friend who thinks the moon landing was faked - should I extend respect to that particular viewpoint as well?
This isn't true. He was an enemy because he strongly opposed the Nazis, published a newspaper attacking them and was influential in the Catholic church.
I have 20 years of trying to use reason when arguing about politics, but I'm probably doing it wrong I guess...
THESE ARE PEOPLE I KNOW. Also, QAnon is a fringe belief among Republicans so I'd never claim that. The mainstream stuff is whatever Trump is blathering on about, or the latest opinions from Fox news. Antifa super soldiers, BLM as some kind of communist plot, Nancy Pelosi as a dangerous communist. I wish I was joking, but I'm not. And by mainstream I mean the woman who never really talks about politics, who suddenly casually drops in an astonishingly crazy opinion about BLM in a conversation as if it's common sense. In other words, normie Republicans.
Give examples. Preferably with some personal experience, because currently this just seems like blue state fantasy.
Incidentally: 1/3 of the US population didn't vote. The senate is Republican despite more people voting democrat in senate and house elections. The Republicans have only won the presidential popular vote once since 1992. And the Republicans win a minority of the vote despite massive electoral fraud in every election by local Republican officials (Texas, Ohio, Florida, NOrth Carolina and Georgia are particularly bad). Non-voters (1/3 of the population in a really good year for turnout) are mostly not Republicans.
The majority of the population are not Republicans.
Again, this sounds like you think there's some validity to this stuff and that we have to be open to it.
Now with poorer Republicans there is sometimes some material and cultural basis to this. But that's not about engaging with their beliefs (seriously - am not going listen to someone rant about how all confederate soldiers were heroes), but taking seriously their material conditions. That a lot of poor whites have pretty shitty lives, and the culture treats them with contempt - and I think taking those things seriously is worth doing. And maybe some of those people could be persuaded to vote Democrat if they thought their lives would get better. But Democrats mostly don't really address any of that stuff - instead they'd rather go on about how racist they all are.
But an awful lot of Republicans are wealthy people who simply don't want to pay more taxes, or their religious crazies (yes I'm using a pejorative term because I think it's earned. Again I can give a lot of examples of the crazy)
Not sure why no one responded, all sounds like fact to me, highly disturbing but true nevertheless. Been mentioned before in threads, but people who think these things sound far fetched should watch Hypernormalisation and read Jared Yates Sexton American Rule for starters.
There is only one party who has aided and abetted the criminal serial liar, fascist, wanna be dictator and that is the GOP. Is every single one of them to a person a horrid monster? No. But I’m reminded that for evil to triumph all it takes is good people to do nothing.
Trump was and isn’t held accountable by his party so now we have:
Who is responsible, where does the “buck stop”? THE PARTY on the right and the president. Trump and co want nothing more than power. There is no policy, on anything. Where is the infrastructure, where is the health care, what about the opioid crisis... where is anything other than an executive order (which isn’t law)
You want to talk about and argue about fiscal responsibility, or under what circumstances abortions should be allowed, or what power the state should hold over who gets to love or fuck someone else... let’s have at it. Let’s talk, look at others POV, find that compromise.
There is no there there for anyone to meet with for this tinpot dictator.
That is not opinion, that is fact. Trump is a career Scofflaw and criminal. Tax fraud, bank fraud, insurance fraud, rape it’s all there in black and white done and displayed for years!
If he gets re-elected all that is lawful, stable, and “good” in America will be destroyed all to feed an ego that cannot be satiated. All he wants is power and NO RESPONSIBILITY, the same goes for his enablers.
Another 4 years, the political opposition will be jailed, the judiciary will be a farce, corruption will be de rigueur (imagine a thousands of Giuliani and worse)...
and there will be so many more needless dead, and not just from the corona virus.
Before the we get a vaccine - there will be over 500,000 dead. Trump won’t give a shit, ever.
Sorry for ranting. All I want is peace. Trump will not give anyone that.
Sometimes you have to confront not compromise, history of the rise of fascism last century for instance was allowed to grow before an opposing stance formed.
Yeah that is a good point. It’s something that needs to be addressed and worked on. I have a lot of trouble trying to understand what would drive people to the point they are at and would prefer to see those people awakened from their cult-like state but the end of the road in trying to understand that is incredibly blurry.