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OT: I live in the US and I voted today!
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Is this like a thing you actually do, or more of a theoretical position?
And how do you propose arguing with them. As someone who has a fair bit of experience of trying I'd be interested in your techniques...
They haven't compromised for 26 bloody years. At some point you think Democrats would have noticed this.
I don’t disagree that people need to be able to have conversations. And, there is also a point at which one has to point out that someone is acting in bad faith. I would posit that the GOP has over the last few years made it clear that their rhetoric is grossly at odds with their actual policies. We can see this with example such as their stance in Supreme Court appointments and fiscal responsibility (keeping the deficit under control). These are cases where they have simply lied about their positions. At some point, one has to call bad faith for what it is.
I have tried to engage people with differing views .... have never called anyone a name ... and the number of times that their response was vituperative without replying to the underlying factual argument has been telling.
Many have, but the effing structure of our government (judicial appointments controlled by low population density, overwhelmingly white people with very conservative Christian views ) means that D’s have to put together a coalition that includes people that have a much more diverse set of views than the GOP’s which makes it tricky to hold together. For example, D’s can’t afford to alienate someone like Manchin.
@cian yes this is something I actually do. I think a lot of people just want to be heard. It’s important to understand where people are coming from. Relationship is the foundation for healing from this division.
As an example, if someone brings up a ridiculous theory to me,I will research the heck out of it and then give them the facts. In some cases assumptions have to be made, appeal to emotion has to be made, and an understanding of the person at the beginning and where they are coming from are helpful in coming up with an effective, persuasive argument.
I think it is noteworthy that you are friends. Many people won’t even do that.
You are mistaken to think that by engaging in conversation with someone about their monstrous beliefs, that that in itself co nstitutes respect for those beliefs. How would we ever change anyone’s mind about anything if we did not communicate with them? Think outside the political box for a second.
I get why it can be frustrating and that people can be obstinate. What we need to do is challenge people to find the truth and do so in a way that is calm, objective, without shaming, and without having the facts thrown in their face. We need true discourse.
Great Post Ed
The Democratic party coalition in congress is hard to hold together, but it's also incredibly unrepresentative of the population as a whole. The coalition that the democratic leadership (Schumer, Pelosi, Biden, etc) seem to want to build is of upper income, college educated people. They still have a fantasy that they can somehow persuade suburban republicans to vote for them, but take poor black and latino voters for granted (and younger ones, at least the ones I've spoken to, know this) and treat poor whites with contempt. Black voters are not a monolith, and hispanic voters are incredibly diverse (if that's even a thing honestly. Texan Mexican Americans don't have much in common with Cuban Floridans).
The Democratic party could build a broad coalition, but it would require taking working class and lower middle class issues seriously, and abandoning the interests of silicon valley/wall street. Less culture war, more economic war. A lot of policies that AoC and Bernie pushes poll very well with poorer white voters in the south (some poll well with wealthier voters too. Almost nobody I know likes their insurance company).
What does 'healing from this division' mean? They're riled up because Fox news riles them up, or because they're kids disagree with them, or the world is changing in ways that they don't like. Or in some cases they're trying to justify to themselves why it's okay for them to be wealthy in the midst of so much poverty.
I've yet to see anyone change their mind from this kind of argument in 25 years. I will argue with people (politely and with humour) when there's an audience, but that's because I feel some people in the audience might be persuadable. 1 on 1? Or where I know the audience isn't persuadable? Nah, there's no point. It just makes everyone angrier.
I think it's mostly because I live in a Republican area, and I'm skilled at avoiding politics honestly.
I don't think I've seen anyone change their mind about a strongly held belief in my life after an argument. Mostly it just seems to strengthen those views. This is a general comment incidentally. I don't think liberals are any more persuadable.
I don't go out of my way to find out what Republicans think about politics for the simple reason I don't have to.
Most people are not interested in the truth. They're looking either for an explanation for why their life isn't going the way they want it to, or an explanation for why they shouldn't feel bad about being wealthy. This is also generally true of middle class liberals incidentally. I don't think people are bad necessarily, but I don't suffer from the illusion that most people are particularly good either.
And some people are just crazy. Engaging with some Republican viewpoints is like engaging with moon landing hoaxers. Simply not worth it.
TL;DR
This makes for depressing reading:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/05/biden-presidency-face-obstruction-election?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
But don't worry everyone.... It'll all work out when Kanye wins in 2024 😅
Oh my fucking... god. Hilarious 😂
@cian wrote:
I think you exaggerate in a way that misleadingly makes the D's policies and the GOP's seem far more similar than they are. Personally, I wish the D's were more progressive and had a stronger working-class emphasis. AND (and I think this is a huge AND), even the less-progressive-than-I'd-wish policies of the mainstream party does far more for the people you mention than the policies of the GOP. It isn't even close.
Let's take the ACA -- the ACA has been hugely beneficial to those that struggle financially both through the protections it adds and subsidies for those that can't afford private insurance but also through the expansion of MedicAid. Even the mainstream D's support a massive increase in minimum wage and a host of other policies that benefit people with marginal and low incomes. They also continue to support a host of assistance programs that the GOP would like to eliminate.
Could the D's be better. Yes. But they are very different from the GOP in significant ways. The Democratic coalition may be not fully representative but it is unbelievably more representative than the GOP coalition. Do we need to push it to be more representative: SURE. But remember, conservatives have disproportionate power in the U.S. because as a coalition they don't fall apart when they don't get everything they want.
Wow, this is quite stunning. And mostly not funny. A true anti-Evita. Kudos to the composer, lyricist and arranger.
...not quite sure I understand, since you just use my username. What do TL and DR mean ? Sorry for my lack of knowledge on internet acronyms.
@kurth, too long, don’t read. Don’t feel bad, I’m still trying to figure out llrc.
But what exactly has he done for anyone?
“Biden’s corruption” is unsourced nonsense but I stand by to hear all about it.
Meanwhile Trumps corruption is overwhelmingly well sourced and extends back decades.
Check out a book written by a staid fact-checked Republican journalist.
https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Making_of_Donald_Trump.html?id=uTA7DwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button
yeah man...keep it short and superficial
@tja. Correction acknowledged.
somewhat more palatable , but more concrete ? More likely what he wanted to say. Less dictatorial.
...actually , interestingly I have a story. When a friend married a local and he got her citizenship , she still absolutely knew nothing about the usa , historically, nor contemporarily, and truthfully I was alittle incensed that she thought she voted with equal 'rights', cause being a citizen and voting should require knowledge....which in the end, results in more informed and knowledgeable voting decisions. The intrinsic problem discussed in this thread is why and how each side of the fake political isle is it's own propaganda machine, and the people who support them, are only introduced to their sides 'acceptable knowledge'. If both sides knew true history, they're wouldn't be too much disagreement, because the majority of americans are good people. However it requires 'research'. But first you have to overcome the cia's disinfo against it. They degradingly called it 'conspiracy theory' and everybody was so happy they could just say it was too long, or to little , or too late. The political truth of every country on the planet is, the gears move when men make decisions in secret. And that is conspiracy. And the usa is the biggest secret maker in the world. Does anyone else have a secret clearance...and 'right to know' ? So if that little bit was too long, well forget a list of 10 books to inform the american reader about the true nature of their country. But if you haven't read him, start with Howard Zinn's 'the people history'.
I hope everyone is doing well.
@kurth. I’m sure you’re right... from the little history I know. You can question whether FDR knew about Pearl Harbor beforehand and tear him down if you want (anti Semitic, wasn't he?) It’s just a matter of the degree of corruption in today’s climate as far as I’m concerned.
As I recall Trump said Marco Rubio’s (or was it Ted Cruz’?j father in law had a hand in killing Kennedy. I’ll value the history within my memory a bit more. The election choice is simply the lesser of two evils. It doesn’t necessarily make me the chump of left wing propaganda.
The fact that Lincoln arrived in Washington dressed as a woman doesn’t make him a transvestite, but it sure makes a good conspiracy theory for the Dems, because... as Trump said... most people don’t know he was a Republican... which means he, personally, had just found out, in Trumpspeak.
On Reddit - TL;DR is added at the end of a long post, which briefly summarizes the content of the post. For those who do not want to deep dive through a lengthy text.
Germany is quite strong but it cannot support the crumbling architecture of Italy and Spain. The EU relies on the US more than it wants to admit. Face it, this is a global thing now. The West needs to stand together or face mass destabilization.