Anyone into the WOO here? UFOs etc?

sevenape

@Gavinski said:
Watching now! I'm not necessarily a skeptic but I thought that was worth posting.

Oh most definitely! I think a lot of experiencers are a bit deluded... I don't really find Barney and Bett Hill's experience very compelling for example!!

sevenape

@cyberheater said:

@Simon said:
no ghosts

Talking of ghosts. I saw a ghost cat once.

glitch in the matrix!?

knewspeak

@Gavinski said:
Watching now! I'm not necessarily a skeptic but I thought that was worth posting.

Shermer debating Kastrup is an interesting watch too. Remember keep an open mind but don’t let your brain fall out.

knewspeak

@Krupa said:
It really used to peeve me that my UFO mates constantly told me I was being abducted when I had sleep paralysis regularly.

Kid’s in Nigeria and Australia may have been sleep ‘schooling’

knewspeak

@OnfraySin said:
I spent more nights looking at sky in the middle of nowhere than maybe all of you together.

My other hobby is the astrophotography. I spent weeks on dark sites, totally alone, night after night, making thousands of photos and videos, looking at the sky.

And like me, a TON of other people around the globe. The astrophotography is a "common" hobbie.

Only people that "see anything" are:

• People that doesn't understand all the things that happens in sky. There are a LOT of phenomenons, optics, meteo and sky related, that people doesn't know.

• People who are not used to stay outside in the dark.

• People with mental problems.

• People who need one minute fame.

• People abusing substances.

Lots of aircraft pilots shouldn’t be flying, let alone in charge of highly expensive, technological aircraft.

Gavinski

@Krupa said:
It really used to peeve me that my UFO mates constantly told me I was being abducted when I had sleep paralysis regularly.

I remember when I spent 2 months living on a kibbutz in Israel and many of the volunteers, including myself, had weird semi-asleep experiences like seeing a figure standing at the foot of their bed. Over many late night bonfire discussions we concluded that it was maybe something to do with the incredibly cheap bootleg vodka we were drinking most nights.

ervin

@Gavinski said:
... the more than three million other Americans who believe they have had some kind of encounter with extraterrestrials...

Think about this. 3 million people claiming personal encounters in the US alone, and not a single alien to date to show for it.

This is "Jesus personally appeared to me" kind of stuff. Same thing, really. And that is also believed by millions.

[Deleted User]

@OnfraySin said:
I spent more nights looking at sky in the middle of nowhere than maybe all of you together.

My other hobby is the astrophotography. I spent weeks on dark sites, totally alone, night after night, making thousands of photos and videos, looking at the sky.

And like me, a TON of other people around the globe. The astrophotography is a "common" hobbie.

Only people that "see anything" are:

• People that doesn't understand all the things that happens in sky. There are a LOT of phenomenons, optics, meteo and sky related, that people doesn't know.

• People who are not used to stay outside in the dark.

• People with mental problems.

• People who need one minute fame.

• People abusing substances.

Wow man, you need to tell NASA and the Pentagon this quick - they, and other countries are spending loads on this when it's just mental people on drugs, not used to the dark or anything else, looking for a minute of fame!! You can save them BILLIONS!!!!

Though you might want to check other famous astronomers for their views first. For example the observatory near here keeps a log of the lights and other objects it records that it can't explain. I'd like to think their team don't fit into your 'People that doesn't understand all the things that happens in sky' category.

@ervin said:

Better for what? Entertainment purposes? 🙂 Genuine question though, because there's no less reliable testimony than that built on human memory, especially distant human memory.

What about when it's remembered by multiple witnesses? As in all of the cases in my list. Is that just more 'entertainment'? Or maybe we all have mental health problems and have never been out in the dark?

@ervin said:

@Gavinski said:
... the more than three million other Americans who believe they have had some kind of encounter with extraterrestrials...

Think about this. 3 million people claiming personal encounters in the US alone, and not a single alien to date to show for it.

Think about this - how would they actually produce an alien for you to look at? Maybe they could throw a net of some kind over the alien, that they'd kept hidden under their pillow before they were abducted? Maybe they could do this when it was distracted, getting the anal probe ready for action? Worth a shot!

@Carnbot said:

But that's the thing, there is no real evidence yet which isn't speculation, or unverifiable anecdotal.

That's not actually true though, is it. There are literally thousands of reports from professional witnesses, pilots, for example, backed up by photos, videos from more witnesses on the ground, and radar confirmation. They don't all have 'mental problems'.

Aside from the military capturing one and depositing in your front room to touch and look at up close, there's not really much else they can do.

I feel like I've wandered into a Flat Earth Society meeting...

Gavinski

Yep. I have a Buddhist meditator friend, Jewish by birth, atheist but heavily into Buddhism. He described seeing ‘devas’ while meditating (a kind of Buddhist god / sprite / fairy type thing).

I also experienced a lot of weird sensory phenomena during a 2 month silent meditation retreat. Once I was so overcome by ecstasy that I felt the whole earth was shaking, like there was an earthquake. But to me these are creations of a brain deprived of sensory stimuli and say absolutely zero about reality. It can at times be similar to a mushroom trip.

Still, the medical evidence for abduction vid posted earlier is interesting. Gonna pop back and watch a bit more now.

knewspeak

@monz0id said:

@OnfraySin said:
I spent more nights looking at sky in the middle of nowhere than maybe all of you together.

My other hobby is the astrophotography. I spent weeks on dark sites, totally alone, night after night, making thousands of photos and videos, looking at the sky.

And like me, a TON of other people around the globe. The astrophotography is a "common" hobbie.

Only people that "see anything" are:

• People that doesn't understand all the things that happens in sky. There are a LOT of phenomenons, optics, meteo and sky related, that people doesn't know.

• People who are not used to stay outside in the dark.

• People with mental problems.

• People who need one minute fame.

• People abusing substances.

Wow man, you need to tell NASA and the Pentagon this quick - they, and other countries are spending loads on this when it's just mental people on drugs, not used to the dark or anything else, looking for a minute of fame!! You can save them BILLIONS!!!!

Thought you might want to check other famous astronomers for their views first. For example the observatory near here keeps a log of the lights and other objects it records that it can't explain. I'd like to think their team don't fit into your 'People that doesn't understand all the things that happens in sky' category.

@ervin said:

Better for what? Entertainment purposes? 🙂 Genuine question though, because there's no less reliable testimony than that built on human memory, especially distant human memory.

What about when it's remembered by multiple witnesses? As in all of the case in my list. Is that just 'entertainment'? Or maybe we all have mental health problems and have never been out in the dark?

@Carnbot said:

But that's the thing, there is no real evidence yet which isn't speculation, or unverifiable anecdotal.

That's not actually true though, is it. There are literally thousands of reports from professional witnesses, pilots, for example, backed up by photos, videos from more witnesses on the ground, and radar confirmation. They don't all have 'mental problems'.

Aside from the military capturing one and depositing in your front room to touch and look at up close, there's not really much else they can do.

I feel like I've wandered into a Flat Earth Society meeting...

It’s good to be skeptical but sometimes the ‘debunking’ is more outrageously funny than the bloody phenomenon.

[Deleted User]

@knewspeak said:

It’s good to be skeptical but sometimes the ‘debunking’ is more outrageously funny than the bloody phenomenon.

I know, all those tens of thousands of reports, officially acknowledged (even by the Pentagon) as 'unidentified', calmly dismissed as 'People who are not used to stay outside in the dark.'

Simon

@ervin said:

@Gavinski said:
... the more than three million other Americans who believe they have had some kind of encounter with extraterrestrials...

Think about this. 3 million people claiming personal encounters in the US alone, and not a single alien to date to show for it.

This is "Jesus personally appeared to me" kind of stuff. Same thing, really. And that is also believed by millions.

Twenty percent of Americans believe he or she has seen an angel or knows someone who has, according to a survey of 1,127 adult residents of the United States conducted by Scripps Howard News Service and Ohio University.

Seventy-seven percent of adults in the poll answered "yes" to the question: "Do you believe angels, that is, some kind of heavenly beings who visit Earth, in fact exist?" Another 73 percent believe angels still "come into the world even in these modern days."

https://www.seattlepi.com/lifestyle/article/Poll-Most-Americans-believe-in-angels-1075020.php

sevenape

@monz0id said:

@knewspeak said:

It’s good to be skeptical but sometimes the ‘debunking’ is more outrageously funny than the bloody phenomenon.

I know, all those tens of thousands of reports, officially acknowledged (even by the Pentagon) as 'unidentified', calmly dismissed as 'People who are not used to stay outside in the dark.'

Hahahahahah

sevenape

@knewspeak said:

@Gavinski said:
Watching now! I'm not necessarily a skeptic but I thought that was worth posting.

Shermer debating Kastrup is an interesting watch too. Remember keep an open mind but don’t let your brain fall out.

Oh what’s that!? Off to YouTube I go

AudioGus

@Simon said:

@ervin said:

@Gavinski said:
... the more than three million other Americans who believe they have had some kind of encounter with extraterrestrials...

Think about this. 3 million people claiming personal encounters in the US alone, and not a single alien to date to show for it.

This is "Jesus personally appeared to me" kind of stuff. Same thing, really. And that is also believed by millions.

Twenty percent of Americans believe he or she has seen an angel or knows someone who has, according to a survey of 1,127 adult residents of the United States conducted by Scripps Howard News Service and Ohio University.

Seventy-seven percent of adults in the poll answered "yes" to the question: "Do you believe angels, that is, some kind of heavenly beings who visit Earth, in fact exist?" Another 73 percent believe angels still "come into the world even in these modern days."

https://www.seattlepi.com/lifestyle/article/Poll-Most-Americans-believe-in-angels-1075020.php

yah, it's not so much that I don't believe aliens have visited us, just that I have known too many humans.

Gavinski

If we're not careful BTW, this thread will likely be put into the 'padded room' section of the forum 😂

AudioGus

@Gavinski said:
If we're not careful BTW, this thread will likely be put into the 'padded room' section of the forum 😂

Good point.

So people site army colonels and the pentagon as though they are freaking paragons of independent and rational scientific thought that haven't inflicted untold levels of bullshit and horror upon the world.

I am open minded but please land one of those shiny discs over here so I can rub my own grubby paws all over it.

(Better?)

[Deleted User]

@Gavinski said:
If we're not careful BTW, this thread will likely be put into the 'padded room' section of the forum 😂

Probably just as well, as 'Only people that "see anything" are: People with mental problems.'

Apparently.

sevenape

@Gavinski said:
If we're not careful BTW, this thread will likely be put into the 'padded room' section of the forum 😂

hahaha

knewspeak

@Simon said:

@ervin said:

@Gavinski said:
... the more than three million other Americans who believe they have had some kind of encounter with extraterrestrials...

Think about this. 3 million people claiming personal encounters in the US alone, and not a single alien to date to show for it.

This is "Jesus personally appeared to me" kind of stuff. Same thing, really. And that is also believed by millions.

Twenty percent of Americans believe he or she has seen an angel or knows someone who has, according to a survey of 1,127 adult residents of the United States conducted by Scripps Howard News Service and Ohio University.

Seventy-seven percent of adults in the poll answered "yes" to the question: "Do you believe angels, that is, some kind of heavenly beings who visit Earth, in fact exist?" Another 73 percent believe angels still "come into the world even in these modern days."

https://www.seattlepi.com/lifestyle/article/Poll-Most-Americans-believe-in-angels-1075020.php

Wow that’s a massive dataset to use, I wouldn’t be surprised if most people believed in a ‘heaven’ I wonder what direction they would point if asked, yet most know what is in that direction and it’s no Disney land heaven is it. What lay’s in that direction is a vision of the past, but also if we don’t destroy ourselves, our future.

AudioGus

So there are some high watermark sightings from over the past seventy years that have been held up as amazing testimonials in that they involve intimate contact with large groups of people. Bunch of school kids in one case, whole bunch of military people in another etc etc. There seems to be like a top ten I often hear cited in these discussion, so at least one a decade of these mass sighting mindblowers. Great! So that means by the time I die there will likely be at least three or four mass youtube uploads of peoples footage of the same event, taken independatly with tons of different mobile devices from tons of different perspectives of people walking right up to shiny discs and shaking hands with ET that will be so overwhelmingly documented that it settles the case in my mind forever. great!

cfour

I feel this subject is way too close to religion in many ways, with similar fallacies. There can be thousands upon thousands of witnesses, but that is not "proof" of something. Spiritism took off when 2 sisters claimed to communicate with spirits. Later on they confessed they had made everything up. Too late, now Spiritism is a very popular organization for example in Brazil, and you will find all sorts of "first hand" accounts telling you how spirits communicate with them. Also, it is a fallacy to think that thousands of witnesses having seen an UFO or UAP = aliens. The keyword is unidentified. "I do not know what it is" does not equal God or Aliens. Same goes for complexity. "The pyramids are complex" or "the eye is complex" does not equal God or Aliens.

I can see why the US army is interested in these claims; they do not want to risk the possibility of missing a Russian or Chinese (or whatever) jet fighter prototype from another super power. They do not want to make a Type I error. I believe that is an easier explanation behind their interest than trying to sort out whether aliens are out there or not.

NASA is interested (and they should, it is extremely unlikely but not impossible), but they are spending peanuts on that research.

A problem I see is that these "flying saucers" (or whatever you want to call them) never appear at noon in Manhattan or Beijing or Moscow. It is always on some remote place where there are very few people (again, this is very similar to what happens in religions)

I do believe the chances of life (in the sense of an organism being able to replicate and metabolize) in the Universe are high though, it is a very big Universe. The chances of "intelligent" life, well, not that high. I see two big problems: 1) It took sapiens more than 3 billion years to evolve. What are the chances of a similar event happening somewhere else "nearby" in the Universe at the same exact time (and with the other guys being way more advanced than us) 2) the other problem is distance. The closest exoplanet we know of is around 4 point something light years away. With our fastest current technology (relying on gravity assist) that means ~20 thousand (!) years to get there. With other theoretical ways of propulsion (nuclear) it would take 1000+ years. So we are basically saying these beings have a super advanced technology, they thought it made sense to come here, but they just "look around" and disappear. Sounds a bit odd... And let's not forget we have sent radio waves and have been listening to incoming ones for years (a significantly simpler way of communication than having to build super flying machines) and still have not heard a thing.

Anyway, I am posting this for the sake of discussing ideas, I hope nobody gets offended

Carnbot

@knewspeak said:

@Carnbot said:

@knewspeak said:

@Carnbot said:

@knewspeak said:

@Carnbot said:

@knewspeak said:

@Carnbot said:
Slightly more chance of aliens coming than Logic Pro for ipad, but equally near zero

Turn that around, could Logic Pro be brought to the iPad? Could UFO’s be controlled by ‘aliens’?
Unless you can see the future and know every minutiae of the universe then the range of these possibilities is impossible to guess, assigning any number is ridiculous folly.

Not a folly, but maths which can be disproved or proved but they are useful to know how to guide what to study and what to expect. The scale of the universe and the improbability of intelligent life evolving means that the closest is likely to be so far away we'll never be able to detect it, which is why we haven't already. Which means that everything on earth so far is almost certainly natural phenomena we don't understand or is misreported. We've all had strange experiences which turned out to be explainable.

Unfortunately we have to solve this human mess by ourselves, no one is coming, it's a human existential problem.
I'm sure any aliens in distant galaxies have there own problems to deal with rather than spending vast amounts of energy to get here and then only appearing as a grey digital smudge on a HUD display

But it is fun to speculate of course.

Interesting, you assume they would communicate using the same methods we have only just over a century ago, invented, you assume because we can’t go there, they couldn’t get here. As for a natural interest in thing’s tell zoologists they are wasting their time and efforts studying other creatures in their natural habitat or trying to save species near extinction.

If it is ‘aliens’ they would be a natural part of the universe, therefore may have a natural curiosity, if we would appear ‘child like’ to them. Then maybe as we do, we let our own children chose their destiny, if they make mistakes, we hope they learn from them. A guiding influence rather than a strict policy of adherence to parental teachings.

No, it's not assuming anything, it's just evidence based reasoning. When there is more evidence to look at then there is more to reason with.
We could also just as much be in an artificial simulation and reality isn't real at all.
But in all probability that's unlikely as well.

There’s no lack of evidence, but if you want better evidence, you do indeed have to look for it and be willing to look at it objectively without prejudice.

But that's the thing, there is no real evidence yet which isn't speculation, or unverifiable anecdotal.
But I'm always interested in any new phenomena and follow all science topics with interest

I’d suggest Brian Keating, Eric Weinstein, Avi Loeb for starters, these are but a few brave fellows who dare to look. All I believe you could have, not so long ago, called ‘die hard skeptics’.

I am aware of some of these people, but there more who study the subject who remain skeptical. I am more convinced by their reasoning so far, but the debate is always interesting

@monz0id said:

@OnfraySin said:
I spent more nights looking at sky in the middle of nowhere than maybe all of you together.

My other hobby is the astrophotography. I spent weeks on dark sites, totally alone, night after night, making thousands of photos and videos, looking at the sky.

And like me, a TON of other people around the globe. The astrophotography is a "common" hobbie.

Only people that "see anything" are:

• People that doesn't understand all the things that happens in sky. There are a LOT of phenomenons, optics, meteo and sky related, that people doesn't know.

• People who are not used to stay outside in the dark.

• People with mental problems.

• People who need one minute fame.

• People abusing substances.

Wow man, you need to tell NASA and the Pentagon this quick - they, and other countries are spending loads on this when it's just mental people on drugs, not used to the dark or anything else, looking for a minute of fame!! You can save them BILLIONS!!!!

Though you might want to check other famous astronomers for their views first. For example the observatory near here keeps a log of the lights and other objects it records that it can't explain. I'd like to think their team don't fit into your 'People that doesn't understand all the things that happens in sky' category.

@ervin said:

Better for what? Entertainment purposes? 🙂 Genuine question though, because there's no less reliable testimony than that built on human memory, especially distant human memory.

What about when it's remembered by multiple witnesses? As in all of the cases in my list. Is that just more 'entertainment'? Or maybe we all have mental health problems and have never been out in the dark?

@ervin said:

@Gavinski said:
... the more than three million other Americans who believe they have had some kind of encounter with extraterrestrials...

Think about this. 3 million people claiming personal encounters in the US alone, and not a single alien to date to show for it.

Think about this - how would they actually produce an alien for you to look at? Maybe they could throw a net of some kind over the alien, that they'd kept hidden under their pillow before they were abducted? Maybe they could do this when it was distracted, getting the anal probe ready for action? Worth a shot!

@Carnbot said:

But that's the thing, there is no real evidence yet which isn't speculation, or unverifiable anecdotal.

That's not actually true though, is it. There are literally thousands of reports from professional witnesses, pilots, for example, backed up by photos, videos from more witnesses on the ground, and radar confirmation. They don't all have 'mental problems'.

Aside from the military capturing one and depositing in your front room to touch and look at up close, there's not really much else they can do.

I feel like I've wandered into a Flat Earth Society meeting...

Yes, I agree on that flat earthers are more likely to believe that aliens have visited for sure because they don't want to deal with real evidence, just a belief.

There's always an explanation. Alien abduction for example is just simply sleep paralysis, which I've experienced countless times and I understand why people in the past have mistaken it for external control from technology as it creates very vivid hallucinations.

Nature creates very strange illusions but nothing so far indicates alien life, we'll know if that actually happens.

[Deleted User]

@AudioGus said:
So there are some high watermark sightings from over the past seventy years that have been held up as amazing testimonials in that they involve intimate contact with large groups of people. Bunch of school kids in one case, whole bunch of military people in another etc etc. There seems to be like a top ten I often hear cited in these discussion, so at least one a decade of these mass sighting mindblowers.

Bedtime reading for you: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B09RB9WR17/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i0

A very dry, fact-based collection of recorded sightings over the years with multiple witnesses, mainly military based.

ervin

@monz0id said:

@ervin said:

Better for what? Entertainment purposes? 🙂 Genuine question though, because there's no less reliable testimony than that built on human memory, especially distant human memory.

What about when it's remembered by multiple witnesses?

Doesn't really matter, I'm afraid. Human memory is famously unreliable, at both individual or group level.

@ervin said:

Think about this. 3 million people claiming personal encounters in the US alone, and not a single alien to date to show for it.

Think about this - how would they actually produce an alien for you to look at?

Really? 🙂 The apparent fact that none of the 3 million claimants (and many more worldwide) have been able to make a selfie or steal a small object during their personal encounter doesn't strike you as strange at all?

@Carnbot said:

But that's the thing, there is no real evidence yet which isn't speculation, or unverifiable anecdotal.

That's not actually true though, is it. There are literally thousands of reports from professional witnesses, pilots, for example, backed up by photos, videos from more witnesses on the ground, and radar confirmation. They don't all have 'mental problems'.

Aside from the military capturing one and depositing in your front room to touch and look at up close, there's not really much else they can do.

That's exactly what's missing. A specimen. Or a vehicle. Or an obviously alien tool, object, weapon, something, anything. Without those, really just one tangible thing, you're still at the level of faith or religion. Regardless of how many millions of reports and witnesses you collect, there will always be more reports and witnesses that claim divine encounters, also with zero tangible proof. Do you believe them, too? Many of them are reliable professionals, I'm sure.

I feel like I've wandered into a Flat Earth Society meeting...

Well, if you say the earth is flat, someone can take you up to see the globe, or out to the sea where the top of ships appear first on the horizon, etc. Tangible/reproducible proof, that is. Whereas if someone says those claims of personal alien encounters are not true, what can you show them as proof: books? YouTube videos? Secret documents?

I'm hoping you see there's a bit of a difference between the two scenarios.

[Deleted User]

@Carnbot said:

flat earthers are more likely to believe that aliens have visited for sure because they don't want to deal with real evidence, just a belief.

My reference was actually directed towards debunkers who refuse to believe anything until they've experienced it themselves directly. Like Flat Earthers who refuse to believe the Earth is round and would have to physically observe it via an orbiting spaceship before they acknowledge it as fact.

More open-minded folk are less inclined to ridicule people sharing their experiences, acknowledging the potential embaressment (and for pilots, potential loss of their jobs) in doing so, instead of dismissing it totally out of hand. "BUT YOU'LL FALL OFF THE EDGE!!!!"

@Carnbot said:

There's always an explanation.

There's a lot of gaslighting in this thread, that's for sure.

There isn't "always an explanation", which is why a number of UAP cases investigated last year by the US military are marked as 'unexplained'. Along with tens of thousands across the globe. But maybe you know more than the Pentagon.

@Carnbot said:
Alien abduction for example is just simply sleep paralysis

How do you know that? Have you investigated all cases of reported abductions to come to such a definitive conclusion? I've experienced sleep paralysis and it bears no resemblence to the majority of cases that have been reported.

I'm on the fence about 'alien' abductions, personally. And I don't think anyone is currently in a position to say 'this is what it is', because there are so many different types of experience, and a number cannot be explained in a rational manner.

cfour

@ervin said:

if someone says those claims of personal alien encounters are not true, what can you show them as proof: books? YouTube videos? Secret documents?

This. Precisely. "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" as the saying goes.

ervin

Perhaps a more general question could be this: if you believe in the "WOO", do you also believe in the (similarly well documented, and much more frequent) divine encounters, or the miracles that the Catholic church collects as proof before they beatify someone? If not, why not?

(If you do, then at least you are consistent,
great stuff, more power to you! 👊)

[Deleted User]

@ervin said:

Doesn't really matter, I'm afraid. Human memory is famously unreliable, at both individual or group level.

So you're saying personal experience....for everything...should be dsimissed unless its backed up by...what? A captured alien? An actual UFO you can sit in and pretend to fly?

@ervin said:

Really? 🙂 The apparent fact that none of the 3 million claimants (and many more worldwide) have been able to make a selfie or steal a small object during their personal encounter doesn't strike you as strange at all?

Are you familiar with the term, 'abduction'? It's not like a visit to Walmart, where you can pick up a packet of cigs to take home, or a trip to the Welsh coast where you can pose for a 'selfie' in front of Aberystwyth pier.

@ervin said:

Without those, really just one tangible thing, you're still at the level of faith or religion.

As far as I'm aware, there are't tens of thousands of videos and photo's of the baby Jesus? Or radar confirmation of him flying across the sea?

@ervin said:

Well, if you say the earth is flat, someone can take you up to see the globe, or out to the sea where the top of ships appear first on the horizon, etc.

I've never been 'taken up to see the globe', or been out to sea (always looks pretty flat to be honest). All I have as proof are those things you dismiss as serious evidence - personal experience, videos, and photos.

Yet I'm quite happy to accept that the Earth is not flat. Sometimes you've got to look at the available evidence and make a judgement on it.

@ervin said:

Whereas if someone says those claims of personal alien encounters are not true, what can you show them as proof: books? YouTube videos? Secret documents?

I'm on the fence about alien encounters and abductions, so it's not something I would labour over. If people want to dismiss (3 million?) reported encounters, that's their prerogative. But via personal experience, and the mass of evidence available, I'm absolutely convinced there are things flying around in the sky that we cannot explain.

ervin

@monz0id said:
I'm absolutely convinced there are things flying around in the sky that we cannot explain.

Great, we have found a point of agreement. I also think there's stuff out there we cannot explain - among them the UFOs as that is their literal definition.

Where we differ is I don't think the "alien" explanation has any merit, because no extraordinary evidence, nothing tangible, was yet produced to back up the rather extraordinary claim.

Again, I can see a strong parallel to religion: there was a time when we couldn't explain rain, fire, etc. so we resorted to belief and "witness testimonies". Then, gradually, we understood and now we know better.