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Anyone into the WOO here? UFOs etc?
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To read a book and get a bunch of bread crumbs would be like eating a handful of potato chips when there is warehouse of bags to devour. I would need to dig way too deep to feel satiated and I got bills to pay. No need for me to read and get frustrated (and I legit would, because I can get myself into a flip flop state of questioning reality and don't want to lose my sense of wonder by being too jaded, or my primitive so called rational sense); because as I said if it is true then any day now it will just hit my low threshold bar of youtube mass uploader events. How could it not? Hopefully it does it before deepfake/ai video gets too good. But alas I imagine when I am withering away in the home my head will be a messed up soup of testimonies, fake evidence and THC (for glaucoma).
That being said... oh what the hell, I may read it.
Great post 👍🏼
@LeeB
Thanks!!!
I've had very similar experiences as these kinds of reports, so unless there's more evidence than these anecdotal accounts then there's nothing else to go on. All aspects of the experience of sleep paralysis account for this phenomena. I've had a lot of sleep paralysis throughout my life. But I'll be interested in any new evidence, if it ever happens.
But yes I'm very open minded and that's why I'm interested in scientific truth more than belief. "Unexplained" does not equal aliens, it means unexplained.
But I prefer to wait for real evidence.
I'm not sure we differ that much. If you see my list I posted earlier, most I've tried to explain via the normal channels (Earthlights, drones etc.).
The stumbling block comes when all logical explanations have been ruled out, and you're left with one option - an advanced physical craft of some kind, like my dad witnessed in Ireland. If its not of terrestrial origin, then how do you explain it?
The 'tic tacs' being recorded by US military are troubling, since they are physical objects, with no known source, seemingly able to outmanoeuvre even the most technically advanced fighter jets.
Evidence suggests there's been strange stuff flying around for centuries, maybe even longer. Maybe we'll never reach the stage where we can explain exactly what these things are - we can't know everything after all.
Yeah, some of the sleep paralysis episodes I have had were intense, totally believing that I was being throttled by some ancient zombie queen, shadowy figures all around me chanting, all sorts; bloody horrific, but when scream/claw my way out of them, I analyse the situation and realise it was very realistic hallucination, sometimes that has extended back into epic dreams that even with my lifelong habit of recording and exploring then we’re still rootless.. I’ve done the same with whatever odd lights I’ve seen in the skies, either bad perception or funny weather, and so many times we saw the Blackpool lasers doing mad shit behind the clouds - proper unable to tell what it is until you twig and put three and three together. It’s about belief and what conclusion you draw, I want to believe, but I just don’t, yet 😎
This. The above mentioned survey showing American belief in angels - even though a small sample - blows my mind. Strangely, America was actually more atheist around the time of the civil war than now. If there's one thing that we know it's this. Hindus see Hindu miracles (Ganesh statues dripping milk for example). Buddhists see Buddhist miracles. Christians see Christian miracles. How anyone in this day and age, where we have so much evidence of how historically conditioned faiths are, can believe in these fairy tales is beyond me.
I realise you've got me on ignore for some reason, but I'll ask the question anyway, since it's bugging me:
WTAF has 'Ganesh statues dripping milk' got to do with UFO/UAP reports?
We seem to have fallen very, very deep into the debunkers rabbit hole....
I absolutely do not have you on ignore - why would I? We've never had any falling out that I can recall. And in fact, I've never ever once used the ignore function of the forum, brother. My point was related to the earlier post about angels. I've found your contributions here very interesting and wouldn't dismiss them out of hand. It's just that, as Ervin (or someone, forget who) said earlier, there should be very tangible proof of aliens by now. Not just anecdotes, but objects etc
I’m into the Wu
But why? We don't have tangible proof in the form of objects that the Earth is round (aside from the Earth itself, and that's not much help at this scale), just 'anecdotal' evidence - videos, photos, scientific claims. We still believe it though. Well, most of us anyway, because it makes sense and we haven't fallen off the edge....yet...
Can you provide tangible proof that the objects recorded on cockpit video by fighter and other pilots are of terrestrial origin? NASA can't. The Pentagon can't either. They don't register with anything that is currently scientifically recorded. That doesn't mean they don't exist because we don't have a chunk of rubbery tentacles or a tailfin.
Maybe they're not extra-terrestrial anyway, but a species yet undiscovered here that's very, very good at keeping us at arms length? Maybe we don't know everything there is to know about physics, and stuff is slipping in and out of other dimensions we are unable to detect or comprehend and they're not 'physical' as we know it anyway?
My point is. We don't know everything. So I have to have an open mind about tens of thousands of serious reports of objects zooming around the skies that can't be explained by 'rational' means, particularly when I've witnessed a bunch of weird stuff myself.
Back to the old 'flat Earth' thing - a few hundred years ago people were laughing at suggestions that the world was spherical. Where's the evidence? They'd ask. Maybe in a few hundred years time we'll be looking back at UFO/alien debunkers in the same way as we now view, flat Earthers.
Woo, hang on, you can't conflate videos, photos and scientific claims into one group.
For a 101 class on why the earth is round see here: https://crosstalk.cell.com/blog/seven-ways-to-prove-earth-is-round
It is proved in a variety of ways
The burden of proof rests with those who claim something. Innocent until proven guilty applies in the court of law. In the court of science things are not proven to be true until proven to be true.
Very possible, and certainly we don't know everything about physics
I respect that witnessing and my mind is not closed. We should always keep an open mind.
Perhaps. Let's see.
That many people ever recently believed in a flat earth is a myth called "flat earth error", eg historian Jeffrey Burton Russell claims "with extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the Earth was flat" and the mistaken belief that people did arose much later, in the 17th century
I should amend that post - nothing in science is proven. Popper's definition of science is that it always remains open to being disproven. Hence the criticism of Freudian theory, for example, that considered every attack on Freudian theory as proof of the Freudian theory of repression. From a Freudian mindset it is impossible to debunk Freud. The same goes for some religious mindsets - if you don't believe you're a witch etc. But I think you get my point anyway.
I wonder what would happen if we had a ‘World record the sky night’ where everyone who had any kind of video recording equipment filmed the night sky on a specific date at say 10 pm (their local time) for a duration of 10 minutes. 🤓
You said “there should be very tangible proof of aliens by now. Not just anecdotes, but objects etc” to back up extraterrestrial evidence for UFO’s. So see my point below:
But you haven’t provided a physical object to prove your theory. Let’s look at another example: black holes. Where’s my object?
So that’s why I don’t rule this stuff out yet. Decades of sightings, tens of thousands of photos, videos, multiple witness statements, radar confirmation, and research by the Pentagon and other official departments filing them under ‘unknown’.
That doesn’t tell me it’s all down to ‘People who are not used to stay outside in the dark’, or ‘People with mental problems’.
We seem to be drifting back to weeping statue territory again. You don’t need to have religious faith to acknowledge that some of the sightings of unidentified objects in the sky are…..unidentified.
Ip> @monz0id said:
Agreed. I think there are some parallels between the woo and religion, but after same time I think that the universe is much stranger than any of us know. We are at the brink of big changes in scientific “fact”. Religion was used as a metaphor to explain history and the world, and maybe woo is the same. Mainstream science is looking at leaps in what we know about the history of civilization and the history of the universe… what if ufos and little green men are just a way of making sense of something much weirder… maybe these aren’t aliens from another planet, but people from an alternate universe but the same place? What if they are Inter-dimensional, or come from under the sea? Or from a collective madness!? What if they couldn’t give a fuck about us or who sees them, but we are only able to catch shivery glimpses because we just aren’t equipped to make them out properly!?
I think it’s very important to keep an open mind to everything and not to get caught up in the dogma of materialism. There are lots of things we can prove! But lots of things we can’t, or that we only have theories holding our perception of the universe together.
Problem is we’ve somehow become accustomed to not trusting just about everything. And i can’t really blame anything but the state of the modern world for that. It makes sense. But when a trusted family member, friend, respected person in your community looks you square in the eyes and says “yeah I saw some shit”, you gotta be a pretty big asshole to tell that person they are crazy, on drugs, or just an idiot, what with you having not been present to witness the event and everything. Sure they may be mistaken, but you weren’t there so it comes down to how much you trust the individual and your opinion of their character. And keep in mind too that a lot of what people claim to experience, isn’t exactly sunshine and roses and awe inspiring, it’s often a pants shitting experience that no one should envy.
But at the end of the day, you gotta use your judgment. I’m not going to believe every wild story I hear, but I’m also not going to call bullshit on absolutely everything f
I just jumped into this topic and sheer amount op replies it already got.
I'm interested in UFO's as well and seen a lot of docu's.
My eye's opened when i heard about Erich von Daniken and that there's a lot to be told what the academics can't tell.
How we look at things today is based on the knowledge of the academics before us and is explained with math formulas.
The science today is based upon observation, thought experiments, combine math to new formulas etc.
The whole tree is based upon the seed that's planted, and therefore the tree of science is based on a seed as well. So, the seed has to be perfect to create a beautiful tree, and a one that makes sense. How do we know that the seed is perfect?
Maybe this has nothing to do with UFO's, but also can explain a lot what we observe.
In our evolutionair pathway to the present, we have conditioned ourselves to function in our habitat. And for that we use our senses. The brain use these signals for the functionality of our body to survive. We developed language a way to survive and develop as a group.
Our brains are conditioned to function in this world and only use that limit.
We surely don't know how limitless our world and universe is. Our "interface" isn't programmed for that, although we write new lines of code to expand our limits.
If we see things we can't explain, than we see things that we are not yet programmed for, but try to explain it into our own boundaries.
Maybe our seed is programmed in another language that the seed of the one's that visit us.
100% our experience is conditioned. The world a dog sees / smells is vastly different to the one a human sees or smells. I've even heard it said that if you could somehow (this is purely a thought experiment and clearly not possible) experience the conscious experience of another human being, it would be so alien that it would be akin to a psychedelic experience. I find that very feasible.
@monz0id I'll get back to you on your points tomorrow. Getting very late here. I appreciate the dialogue ♥
@monz0id
I think you have some misconceptions on how Science works to be honest. We do not "believe" the Earth is round. You "believe" in religion. We accept the round Earth hypothesis as we have plenty of evidence to confirm this and we have no evidence to consider an alternative hypothesis.
You mention " black holes. Where’s my object?" In simple terms, we do not always have tangible proof, but we must have 1) a theory to explain a phenomenon, 2) some evidence (tangible or not) that backs that up 3) (essential) the possibility of other people examining the data so they may either arrive at the same conclusion or have the chance to provide a better explanation. And last I would add simplicity, or Occam's razor. When Darwin (and Alfred Russel Wallace) proposed that species change over time he did not have tangible evidence of that occurring (i.e. he did not have an example in "real time" he could provide), but it was undeniable from living animals and fossils that all animals seemed to share common ancestors. That theory could be falsified, e.g. if you could find an animal that did not share anything with any other animal, or a fossil of a chihuahua next to a dinosaur, then the theory was wrong. Not only the theory was never disproven, but later on it was backed up by our increasing knowledge on genetics. Moreover, the whole point behind Science is that we do not need to take anecdotal evidence for granted. That is a great thing, as History has repeatedly told us that we should not add too much value in what other people think or experience. In the case of Black holes the proof started from mathematical equations (the initial idea behind it in the 18th century was a body so big that light could not escape its gravity). Their existence was later on confirmed experimentally. And believe me, you or anybody else always had the chance to say "excuse me Mr. Einstein, I present you with better equations that explain the non existence of black holes". But that has not happened.
You can already see with your UFO example how this is the opposite of what I mentioned. The easiest explanation is that you saw lights from cars reflecting on the clouds, birds, a meteor, a drone, etc. But no, now we are trying to fit a narrative that involves ever increasing mental gymnastics. As I mentioned before, we have been sending radio waves for years, never heard a thing back. That would be an example of proof that is not tangible: received radio waves that are not random in nature and could be interpreted as a language (even if we cannot translate it). Well, that never happened. Where are these aliens coming from? no idea. How did they travel? no idea, but it would defeat all we know until now about space traveling. As I mentioned before, if coming from an exoplanet, the closest "habitable" one is 4 and something light years away. 20000 years to get there with our fastest satellite. A thousand year travel by ways that are purely theoretical. If they come from some other planet you have to believe these beings live in very unfavorable environments (i.e. due to intense gravity, radiation, extreme heat or extreme cold) but are still thriving. Now you are mentioning "stuff slipping in and out of other dimensions". I mean... what? You see how this gets increasingly complicated? That is a bad sign. It starts working just like religion, where you have to do all kinds of mental gymnastics to fit that narrative into what we know about physics, biology, etc.
Last, and this is also challenging @wim a bit (hope he does not get angry, he is super helpful here!) with his comment on climate change (but this is valid for UFOs). We do not want to agree with everybody else in Science. If we do so it would be very difficult to publish papers. What people want in Science is to find a breakthrough idea, to destroy old theories, then you become "rich and famous". There is actually a lot of evidence on climate change (it really does not matter that much though, we know contamination is a huge problem) and there really is zero evidence aliens exist. But no-one should take Science as Gospel, the beauty about Science (as opposed to religion) is that anybody can provide whatever evidence they have, it does not matter where you were born or what is your culture. If your evidence / explanation is better than others then it will prevail. If the whole Scientific community is very skeptic about the whole aliens thing is because there is no evidence yet, and furthermore, no way to justify how it is happening considering all our other knowledge: space travel, habitable planets, chances of intelligent life forms evolving, ways to preserve living organisms for flights that last perhaps centuries or thousand of years, resistance to radiation during that trip. You see how things get very complicated very fast?
And no, what people perceive (you or me) really does not matter at all. Human perception is just not reliable (Just 'cause you feel it - Doesn't mean it's there, to quote Radiohead).
I am sorry, I get carried away when talking about Science
Would this be the Erich von Däniken who happened to be a common criminal, caught multiple times for embezzlement, fraud, etc.; called a pathological liar by the Swiss court expert; who stole almost the entire content of his first (famous) book and wrote the second one while in prison; who admitted in a Playboy interview that he fabricated at least some of his "evidence", and whose work was and still is almost universally rejected by actual scientists? I mean he still may have opened your eyes, of course, but as a reference point he seems a tad bit dodgy.
ooh. I hope no one here still feels that challenging my opinions would bother me. I actually like and welcome that. (My behavior in the past wasn't that way, but I hope I've changed.)
with his comment on climate change (but this is valid for UFOs). We do not want to agree with everybody else in Science. If we do so it would be very difficult to publish papers. What people want in Science is to find a breakthrough idea, to destroy old theories, then you become "rich and famous". There is actually a lot of evidence on climate change (it really does not matter that much though, we know contamination is a huge problem) and there really is zero evidence aliens exist. But no-one should take Science as Gospel, the beauty about Science (as opposed to religion) is that anybody can provide whatever evidence they have, it does not matter where you were born or what is your culture. If your evidence / explanation is better than others then it will prevail. If the whole Scientific community is very skeptic about the whole aliens thing is because there is no evidence yet, and furthermore, no way to justify how it is happening considering all our other knowledge: space travel, habitable planets, chances of intelligent life forms evolving, ways to preserve living organisms for flights that last perhaps centuries or thousand of years, resistance to radiation during that trip. You see how things get very complicated very fast?
My only point is I do believe that contrary opinion and research regarding climate change is actively stigmatized and suppressed. Not completely of course, but enough to intimidate valid research that could help understand everything better no matter which side one's opinion falls. I guess you could say the same for UFO phenomena.
I completely agree that contamination is a huge problem either way. The more sensible things we can do to reduce negative human impact the better! The more the focus is on that the better.
I disagree. We can measure plenty of things that our brain cannot sense: We can take pictures of objects that do not fall into the wavelengths that our eyes can see, we can detect frequencies that our ears cannot hear, we can predict events by purely mathematical equations that we have no control over, we can manipulate at will objects that we cannot touch... Unless you are talking about a parallel Universe of some sort. But if that is the case you providing an explanation that has zero evidence for a phenomenon that we do not even know whether it exists or is pure speculation. We might as well be trying to explain Unicorns in Saturn by Parallel Universes
You have saved me from posting a response, and did it in a far more educated and articulate way than I could have, being a mere philosopher rather than a scientist. Honestly though, that was a great read, I tip my hat to you ser! Now time for bed.
Thanks for the reply, I am glad you did not take it in a bad way
I have a slight problem with the whole narrative of the "other" view on climate research is being stigmatized. I hope I can make a slight point with an example that is closer to my area of study.
Recently, a junior professor showed that a classic paper on Alzheimer Disease had western blots (a technique to semi quantitatively measure protein concentration in a sample) that were probably fabricated. This classic papers and other papers supported the hypothesis that the miss-folding of a protein name beta amyloid had an important role in the development of this disease. I cannot even tell you the amount of money that has been poured into research trying to better understand that protein. I do not know, but I would be willing to bet (not a lot lol) that it is way (waaaayyyyy) more than the research funding dedicated to "climate change". We are talking about huge pharma companies trying to develop antibodies against beta amyloid (clinical trials + research may cost up to billions of dollars), huge labs getting funding all over the World to study this protein (millions and millions of dollars in funding). And I am not saying the beta amyloid hypothesis is false, it could still be correct. My point is that a junior professor made a huge impact and created ripples across the entire World by detecting those fabricated Western blots. So I really do not believe the whole "they don't want to hear other evidence" position or the "academia does not want to hear uncomfortable truths". The big and small players in Science will cut your throat in a second if they can show evidence that you are wrong. Nobody cares when people say "by the way, this hypothesis is correct, I do not bring anything new to the table". It will not be easy to obtain funding, and you wont publish in high impact papers.
Still, and regarding climate change, I also think a valid counter argument is "OK, there is climate change, but we still need the fuel". That is not an easy argument to refute.
Thanks!
Big compliment coming from you. I am a big fan of your videos. Would like to hear at some point (if you feel like sharing it of course) your experience in China, perhaps as an off topic entry. I almost went there to do research, but the zero COVID policy made me change my mind
Those so called tic-tac UFO videos? Interesting but to me looks suspiciously like video artifacts in the recording equipment and stabilisation technology of the lenses rather than aliens, but look forward to seeing more research on what these blobs turn out to be.
ok, quick bit of research seems to indicate that they are likely to be glare from engines and yes, other confirmations that it's likely also from the camera technology. I work loads with video algorithms, animation and camera gear and you just notice tell-tale signs like that immediately.
So if that's the best current visual evidence, it's nothing unfortunately. The military just report what they see and these are just natural glitches.
For sure. The choices in some areas of research are far more cut and dried than in others. For instance, it will be interesting many years from now if we can look back at the big picture of the Covid 19 response. "Flattening the curve" certainly seemed to make sense in the beginning, but I'm fascinated by speculating over how the benefits of the world's actions stack up against their impact in other areas.
Same for climate change. One's view of the urgency of the situation and the amount we can impact it drives the equation of which measures to push vs. the negative short-term impacts of mitigation actions. I think in many cases we don't understand or care about those tradeoffs quite enough to have a balanced approach.
UFO research could fall into that same category. On one hand, if there is a threat, we'd better get our ass in gear. And I think one has to assume there's at least a potential threat. On the other had, how much resource-wise is justified for something like this compared to other more obvious needs?