StringLab - Physical Modelling Synthesizer by 4Pockets - Available Now

Bruques

@Tentype said:

@Bruques said:
Hi @Tentype ,
Just got this.
By any chance can you explain the cc74 implementation to me?
It seems to me that it only works if you map it to either cc1 or cc2, and thus, is not actually per note. Say for example MPE is on, cc74 is mapped to cc1 and mod wheel is routed to exciter noise, then this is overall exciter noise and not per note exciter noise.
There's no direct cc74 mapping that I can see, am I missing it?
As per my earlier posts, cc74 matters, y axis motion to do something like filter cut off is sort of MPE101, but it doesn't seem possible here.
Can you suggest a useful/satisfying/typical implementation of cc74 in stringlab?

I want to go back a bit and explain that this is Paul's first MPE implementation, and he hasn't really MPE himself until now. It came about because I wrote him personally basically begging for it for this synth and providing as many resources as I could to explain how it would be done, and could be done as easy as possible.

My goal was to entice him into even a partial implementation and go from there since it can be daunting to figure out a new feature as a developer, especially if it's not something you use or even considered using.

I sent Paul the entire MPE implementation guide, and descriptions of how it all works. And I pushed specifically for:

• a toggle switch that maps cc74 to cc1 (since there's already a modulation mapping section)
• increasing pitch bend range to +- 48 (since there's already a pitch bend knob)
• adding a global PB range lock (so changing presets wouldn't change PB range)
• adding channel aftertouch just for volume

Now those of who use MPE know what we'd be getting and know what we'd be missing here. Basically if he'd just gone with my suggestions we'd have a synth that could be played with an MPE controller without having to remap everything all the time. Useful, certainly not the be-all-end-all, but at least not annoying to work into your setup.

Clearly a pro developer though, he figured it out super fast and implemented per note aftertouch, 48 PB range, per note pitch bend, and mapping cc74 to cc1.

Basically this means that, as you discovered, cc74 is not per note. Now I'm not a developer and I'm not sure exactly what that would take to implement. As it stands when you map the mod wheel to a parameter you can see the real time change of the knob suggesting to me that there's no way currently to have multiple independent values affecting the mod wheel targets. So there's a fundamental change to how the synth accepts cc1 that would have to happen before we could get per note cc74 with this implementation.

Paul is aware of the issue, and obviously it's up to him how or if he decides to correct it. I encourage people greatly to write him with suggestions. Before I wrote him about MPE he considered it still a fad and likely not worth the effort.

Stringlab is not done. At the very least there's many more modulation targets to make accessible, including cutoff and other beauties I'd love to get my knobs on 😉.

In short, is per note cc74 here? No. I think it could easily be on its way though. Is there plenty of things to do in this with the MPE available? I think so, and I applaud Paul for looking into it even though he doesn't even own a hardware MPE controller.

Thanks @Tentype much appreciated. Can't say that strongly enough.

I'm in no way bashing it or Paul, and the synth is fantastic. I'm merely stating what it is, and you've confirmed. No adjectives employed at all.

I'm completely with you.

It's a surprise that it's even this far MPE coming from someone with no "skin in the game" IE not a linnstrumentalist.

Hopefully we see a fuller implementation in future.

(And yes, I also wonder if it's non trivial to recode whatever parts of the synth presently may not be set up to be per note ,, understandable,, we live in hope)

Thanks again!

supadom

Tentype

cc74 to cc1 mapping is obviously not a fully standard MPE implementation. Synthmaster 2 uses this though and it has the enormous benefit of making every preset patch immediate accessible by MPE.
Generally the main difference between an MPE patch and a regular patch is there nothing immediately mapped to cc74. Any good preset makers will map something tasty to the mod wheel though.

Is it ideal for Stringlab? Maybe not. Maybe users will mostly be making patches from scratch and not using presets mapped by other users who might or might not have MPE. Maybe someone has built their expressive playing career using an MPE synth slide while also ripping the mod wheel. These are great questions to ask, and if you have opinions on how to develop them easily then I'd reach out to Paul directly.

From an easy implementation standpoint though Paul didn't have to make any UI changes to give us something we can do something with, and likely he can eventually make it per note.

Gavinski

Ah I see. Yes I haven't had any chance to try it yet. Yes, good if people write in. Paul is normally really good about doing intensive periods of updates after an app comes out, so I reckon it's possible and even likely that he'll implement things more optimally

Luxthor

@Tentype said:
cc74 to cc1 mapping is obviously not a fully standard MPE implementation. Synthmaster 2 uses this though and it has the enormous benefit of making every preset patch immediate accessible by MPE.
Generally the main difference between an MPE patch and a regular patch is there nothing immediately mapped to cc74. Any good preset makers will map something tasty to the mod wheel though.

Is it ideal for Stringlab? Maybe not. Maybe users will mostly be making patches from scratch and not using presets mapped by other users who might or might not have MPE. Maybe someone has built their expressive playing career using an MPE synth slide while also ripping the mod wheel. These are great questions to ask, and if you have opinions on how to develop them easily then I'd reach out to Paul directly.

From an easy implementation standpoint though Paul didn't have to make any UI changes to give us something we can do something with, and likely he can eventually make it per note.

@Tentype, Thank you so much! 🫶 Your involvement made this app a must-buy for me. Though I will wait for all the initial updates (a completed app) until I pull my credit card.

Tentype

@Tentype, Thank you so much! 🫶 Your involvement made this app a must-buy for me. Though I will wait for all the initial updates (a completed app) until I pull my credit card.

All credit to Paul for being an adventurous developer willing to put time into features he doesn't even have hardware to properly test himself. 💕

Pxlhg

@supadom said:

>
So, what module are these (image) and connected to what? I'm not very fluent in 'the universal solution to everything' but I connected the other modules fast enough. You had me curious and now I want to complete it. 😳 😁

Gavinski

@Tentype said:

@Tentype, Thank you so much! 🫶 Your involvement made this app a must-buy for me. Though I will wait for all the initial updates (a completed app) until I pull my credit card.

All credit to Paul for being an adventurous developer willing to put time into features he doesn't even have hardware to properly test himself. 💕

Yes, although anyone can buy a virtual mpe keyboard very cheaply. Velocity keyboard for example is enough for any dev to use to test out their mpe implementation. And physical modeling and mpe do go so well together, so it makes sense to implement mpe in this and hopefully the extra sales will make up for the time spent on adding it. Plus, that mpe support can then easily be rolled out for all the other 4Pockets apps it would be useful for. MPE is just so massively superior for synths than regular midi. It's really a pity so few devs have made the effort. If more had, mpe would have the widespread usage today that it deserves.

supadom

@Pxlhg said:

@supadom said:

>
So, what module are these (image) and connected to what? I'm not very fluent in 'the universal solution to everything' but I connected the other modules fast enough. You had me curious and now I want to complete it. 😳 😁

V means that the knob is modulated by velocity and key means its modulated by pitch.

Tap on the knob and connect it to velocity or note output in the midi to cv module.

Don’t forget to adjust the intensity on the knob that appears.

If you allow pitch to be modulated by key it will correspond to the notes you play on the built in keyboard. Remember to increase the polyphony on the midi to cv module to more than 1.

To achieve different sounds change the model in the resonator module and use the position and material knobs.

Pxlhg

@supadom said:

@Pxlhg said:

@supadom said:

>

> > So, what module are these (image) and connected to what? I'm not very fluent in 'the universal solution to everything' but I connected the other modules fast enough. You had me curious and now I want to complete it. 😳 😁

V means that the knob is modulated by velocity and key means its modulated by pitch.

Tap on the knob and connect it to velocity or note output in the midi to cv module.

Don’t forget to adjust the intensity on the knob that appears.

If you allow pitch to be modulated by key it will correspond to the notes you play on the built in keyboard. Remember to increase the polyphony on the midi to cv module to more than 1.

To achieve different sounds change the model in the resonator module and use the position and material knobs.

I almost guessed that but could not get where from although the colour of the knob is a hint 😳 Anyway, got it now and it's working fine. Thanks you!😀

Bruques

This video from Brian Rhizomatic Plasmonic, is a really good example of the kind of MPE cc74 mapping I do and am pretty sure most (all?) MPE Instrument players do. If Stringlab had a right-click any control to map mods like Plasmonic that would be perfect

Gavinski

@Bruques said:
This video from Brian Rhizomatic Plasmonic, is a really good example of the kind of MPE cc74 mapping I do and am pretty sure most (all?) MPE Instrument players do. If Stringlab had a right-click any control to map mods like Plasmonic that would be perfect

Ah, Plasmonic is so damn perfect

Bruques

I think there's another bug, if I play a run of notes or a few chords I will quickly end up with some of those notes having sustain stuck on (even with no sustain pedal use whatsoever). It's inconsistent, or rather, it seems inconsistent, as to when or what-makes this behaviour occur, but its extremely frequent, and makes it presently unusable (for me).

@4Pockets_Support

Gavinski

@Bruques said:
I think there's another bug, if I play a run of notes or a few chords I will quickly end up with some of those notes having sustain stuck on (even with no sustain pedal use whatsoever). It's inconsistent, or rather, it seems inconsistent, as to when or what-makes this behaviour occur, but its extremely frequent, and makes it presently unusable (for me).

@4Pockets_Support

I think he almost never checks here. Better really to use Paul (at) kal-group.com and probably worth mentioning what keyboard you're using when u run into that

EdZAB

@Bruques said:
I think there's another bug, if I play a run of notes or a few chords I will quickly end up with some of those notes having sustain stuck on (even with no sustain pedal use whatsoever). It's inconsistent, or rather, it seems inconsistent, as to when or what-makes this behaviour occur, but its extremely frequent, and makes it presently unusable (for me).

@4Pockets_Support

I've experienced that too but so far only when using expression. For example when using an Artiphon Orba controller, depending on the preset selected, and if MPE is enabled and if i have articulation under CC control, if I get too aggressive with sustaining notes, using expression, and triggering additional notes before the previous ones have faded out, it will sometimes produce a surge of sound that takes a few seconds to fade out when I pull my fingers away. I need to mess around a bit more to see what is going on. My initial take on it was that was the nature of the instrument and with all that resonance going on, it could easily be driven into overdrive, but I'll be very interested to see what Paul has to say.

On a related note, I contacted him when the app was first released and commented that the velocity response of some of the instruments was inconsistent, with some being very responsive and others less so. He explained that there are 4 velocity knobs to control that sensitivity, and you can increase those settings to increase the velocity sensitivity on the preset. A lot of presets are designed for keyboards without velocity control, and some presets only work well with consistent velocity levels. That made sense to me, so I'm hoping that he will have some helpful input your issue.

HotStrange

@Bruques said:
I think there's another bug, if I play a run of notes or a few chords I will quickly end up with some of those notes having sustain stuck on (even with no sustain pedal use whatsoever). It's inconsistent, or rather, it seems inconsistent, as to when or what-makes this behaviour occur, but its extremely frequent, and makes it presently unusable (for me).

@4Pockets_Support

Does it do it in standalone or in a host? Also are you using the built in keyboard or external midi? Lastly are you changes presets or any parameters while playing the notes that get stuck?

Bruques

@HotStrange said:

@Bruques said:
I think there's another bug, if I play a run of notes or a few chords I will quickly end up with some of those notes having sustain stuck on (even with no sustain pedal use whatsoever). It's inconsistent, or rather, it seems inconsistent, as to when or what-makes this behaviour occur, but its extremely frequent, and makes it presently unusable (for me).

@4Pockets_Support

Does it do it in standalone or in a host? Also are you using the built in keyboard or external midi? Lastly are you changes presets or any parameters while playing the notes that get stuck?

Standalone and host

Linnstrument

No

Bruques

@EdZAB said:

@Bruques said:
I think there's another bug, if I play a run of notes or a few chords I will quickly end up with some of those notes having sustain stuck on (even with no sustain pedal use whatsoever). It's inconsistent, or rather, it seems inconsistent, as to when or what-makes this behaviour occur, but its extremely frequent, and makes it presently unusable (for me).

@4Pockets_Support

I've experienced that too but so far only when using expression. For example when using an Artiphon Orba controller, depending on the preset selected, and if MPE is enabled and if i have articulation under CC control, if I get too aggressive with sustaining notes, using expression, and triggering additional notes before the previous ones have faded out, it will sometimes produce a surge of sound that takes a few seconds to fade out when I pull my fingers away. I need to mess around a bit more to see what is going on. My initial take on it was that was the nature of the instrument and with all that resonance going on, it could easily be driven into overdrive, but I'll be very interested to see what Paul has to say.

On a related note, I contacted him when the app was first released and commented that the velocity response of some of the instruments was inconsistent, with some being very responsive and others less so. He explained that there are 4 velocity knobs to control that sensitivity, and you can increase those settings to increase the velocity sensitivity on the preset. A lot of presets are designed for keyboards without velocity control, and some presets only work well with consistent velocity levels. That made sense to me, so I'm hoping that he will have some helpful input your issue.

That'll be the same then. As I only play Linnstrument, and x y and z are enabled, there's always expression even if I'm not really focused on performing such gestures.

Tentype

I'll give it a test soon on my Linnstrument too. I haven't had an issue but I've been focused on more monophonic melody lines lately.

HotStrange

@Bruques said:

@HotStrange said:

@Bruques said:
I think there's another bug, if I play a run of notes or a few chords I will quickly end up with some of those notes having sustain stuck on (even with no sustain pedal use whatsoever). It's inconsistent, or rather, it seems inconsistent, as to when or what-makes this behaviour occur, but its extremely frequent, and makes it presently unusable (for me).

@4Pockets_Support

Does it do it in standalone or in a host? Also are you using the built in keyboard or external midi? Lastly are you changes presets or any parameters while playing the notes that get stuck?

Standalone and host

Linnstrument

No

Which host is it? I don’t have a working hardware controller at the moment but I’ll try it with a different AU Keyboard when I get off of work and see if I can also replicate.

Fear2Stop

This is on my must buy list, for sure....question, though...how does this compare to my beloved LaPlace?

vdk_john

Grabbed this one on sale today! However, spent more than half an hour trying to get the “palm mute” sound, and failed 😣 if I try “bow” it works… is it just me or a bug?

Thanks

HotStrange

@Fear2Stop said:
This is on my must buy list, for sure....question, though...how does this compare to my beloved LaPlace?

This one is a bit more straightforward, imo. The Icegear apps are all a bit esoteric (and I love them for it) but this one seems more geared towards typical modeled sounds. Though it can get a bit weird too.

Fear2Stop

@HotStrange said:

@Fear2Stop said:
This is on my must buy list, for sure....question, though...how does this compare to my beloved LaPlace?

This one is a bit more straightforward, imo. The Icegear apps are all a bit esoteric (and I love them for it) but this one seems more geared towards typical modeled sounds. Though it can get a bit weird too.

I love Laplace…would this be worth getting as well or would it be superfluous?

Tentype

I love Stringlab, and played a small role in its development, but I can't say that it would offer you that much beyond Laplace in pure sound. They are capable of much the same things.

For me MPE is a non-negotiable necessity so Stringlab is the clear winner. Stringlab also has some different and great effects, and an awesome randomizer if that's your thing.

Cambler

@Tentype said:
I love Stringlab, and played a small role in its development, but I can't say that it would offer you that much beyond Laplace in pure sound. They are capable of much the same things.

For me MPE is a non-negotiable necessity so Stringlab is the clear winner. Stringlab also has some different and great effects, and an awesome randomizer if that's your thing.

I guess one thing about Laplace is its compatibility with M1 Mac’s so if you’re using Logic on iPad and desktop the plugin should work seamlessly between the two.

Fear2Stop

@Tentype said:
I love Stringlab, and played a small role in its development, but I can't say that it would offer you that much beyond Laplace in pure sound. They are capable of much the same things.

For me MPE is a non-negotiable necessity so Stringlab is the clear winner. Stringlab also has some different and great effects, and an awesome randomizer if that's your thing.

Thank you for that …. I’ve gotten so used to the workflow in Laplace that I’ll probably stick to using that for my Karplus-Strong needs

Cambler

I'm wondering where Logic's Sculpture sits against Stringlab, and Laplace?

Gavinski

@Cambler said:
I'm wondering where Logic's Sculpture sits against Stringlab, and Laplace?

Sculpture is the most sophisticated,massive amount of control, I think, but the iPad version has a very uninspiring UI presently.

Cambler

@Gavinski said:

@Cambler said:
I'm wondering where Logic's Sculpture sits against Stringlab, and Laplace?

Sculpture is the most sophisticated,massive amount of control, I think, but the iPad version has a very uninspiring UI presently.

Thanks G. Agreed about the iPad UI. Luckily I have little idea as to what I'm doing in Sculpture when editing so the UI could be a pile of baked beans and make little difference to my output Having said that, being lost in the machine is a purposeful approach of mine!