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Has the vibe of this forum worsened, and - if so - what can we do to improve it?

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Comments

  • Perhaps it has changed, but it’s still generally a good tone here compared to most other music forums.

    There are definitely people here who tend towards arguing rather than discussing, but they don’t cross the line that leads to a ban.

    It’s inevitable that forums will develop and change over time, but I don’t know if it has been for the worse. I used to come here for quite a few years before I signed up, and I seem to remember there being a ban for bad behavior at quite regular intervals. Maybe that will never go away, but the fact that it’s still quite rare shows that things aren’t so terrible here.

  • I’ve seen a few snarky or uncalled for comments but overall people have been kind and supportive the few months I’ve been a member.

  • I made some negative comments about AI artwork 2 or 3 months back. While I would still stand by those comments, I probably wouldn’t bother now. Life’s too short.

  • It seems to be quieter than it was, but that could be me not reading as much of the forum as I did a while back.

    Having foolishly allowed myself to get triggered a few weeks ago in a moment of weakness, I’ve been more careful about which threads I participate in, and there have been a few occasions when I’ve typed a reply and then not posted, as I can feel myself getting drawn into something I don’t want to be involved with.

    I’ve found the Ignore function useful, even though I don’t use it a huge amount. It gives me a useful option on whether to read certain people’s posts or skip them, and mostly I un-Ignore people after a break. I tend to use it more as a temporary mental/emotional defence if I’m finding someone annoying for whatever reason.

    The vast majority of people here are basically good people, even if we don’t all agree about everything. And I would say we’re a pretty diverse bunch, certainly musically, and in other ways. Maybe not wholly in proportion to society in general, but I haven’t been counting.

    I concur with others that the current state of things generally is affecting everyone, which is bound to affect a forum like this. It’s certainly affecting my creativity, and I find I’m generally feeling down and emotionally volatile.

  • I’ve been Extremely Online for 40 years, and believe me, this place is resolutely benign, compared to most other spaces of my acquaintance.

  • edited December 2023

    I also feel a palpable shift, even though I've only been a visitor for around 2 years. But it's hard to describe it beyond the word "vibe"... I think it has multiple factors, but having more members alone could explain how the forum feels different.

    I also don't think the occasional negativity is an issue yet. By far. It has occurred in the past, and when it does occur it just stands out like something obviously not belonging here, and I think we usually do a fair job in addressing it.

    I'm more concerned about the less obvious issues that can sometimes lurk beneath the veneer of radiant positivity so to say. Though I've seen ups and downs so maybe this is nothing new. Turning on actually knowledgeable folks who point out real issues may be a sign of a hivemind where collectively we fare worse than each of us individually... And doubtless this will have a strong impact on who will join discussions or remain a regular visitor.

    Another factor could also be how apps and our experiences have sort of matured, and it's less of a wild frontier to be explored - very few areas remain that aren't covered by solid and high-quality apps. And maybe for some the excitement will be confined entirely to waiting for his/her favorite desktop app to be ported, or another music industry giant to set foot in the space. We're not at that point yet, but seems like we're getting closer every day.

    EDIT: I think the most practical way (if there is a way at all) to improve things, is to comb through posts in the General App Discussion category, and see if it could be broken up into subcategories. It's just a hunch, but it could be a start. Another way could be to add voting, though that might create its own set of problems.

  • Honestly doesn’t feel too much different lately compared to previous years. We had a lot more negative discussions then with all the political talk that used to invade threads all the time. Once that was no longer allowed things improved massively IMVHO.

    These days any negativity seems to be from just one or two people and the mods are pretty quick to deal with it. As someone who’s been a forum mod for Ableton, Korg, Roland, Elektron and more over the last 20 years, the vibe here is consistently better than anything I’ve experienced on those forums.

  • @JMcM said:
    Got worse during the “Recent Events” era but only if you went in there.

    In number of comments, Creations category is in 3rd place, behind Off Topic/Other.

    To make things better, less interaction in Off Topic/Other category, more interaction in the Creations category.

    I take it you joined after the ‘Recent Events’ category’s demise?

  • edited December 2023

    I think our recent friend has returned as @DeHooverLawyers - he's just started a thread threatening legal action...

    Update - now banned - thanks mods...👍

  • @Gavinski said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    It may partly be the nature of social media environments to develop this way over time.

    If one wants to combat negativity, it might be more productive and positive to have a discussion to ask “how can we be a more constructive, inviting , thriving community” rather than getting the conversation going with a question that plays into and invites negative drama.

    True, though first I wanted to see whether people actually agreed. I'll edit the title and my initial post though to include those, as it seems people do broadly think that.

    I don’t agree. It seems fine and the same as always to me. When I see people beefing I usually just close the thread and read another instead. It’s not a problem for me. Complaining about subscriptions and Behringer/TE/the corporate suits has always been around. Why get exercised over it?

  • @Simon said:
    Yes, the AB Forum is far worse these days.

    You used to be able to enjoy a giant punch up with insults and slurs galore. There was bad behaviour over everything from LFOs to UFOs - it was great fun.

    Nowdays those damn mods are stopping this jolly, online fun. I blame Doug, Jo and Watson! :smiley:

    That food-thieving floor pooper! Where does he get off?

  • @enkaytee said:
    I think our recent friend has returned as @DeHooverLawyers - he's just started a thread threatening legal action...

    Mass spamming legality. :D :D :D

  • I visit this place more than any other place in the world and I love it!! We have brutally smart and dedicated users contributing priceless information, and every once in a while we get an entitled jerk that makes things a bit weird. F them!! Thanks to Michael and the moderators for weeding those goofies out and providing this platform!

  • I didn’t want to even weigh in or reply, but Gavin was good enough to ask for input and I had a recent interaction with a banned members. I’ll try to not say too much but I just wanted some transparency

    i first found this site a couple of years ago when I tried to use Cubasis 3 but I didn’t “get” the iOS environments, and in 2020, it’s limitations. So I don’t even remember the username or account.

    I got dRambo earlier for birthday creativity as a gift, and it turns out it did the trick. I made an account on the forum for help and then I made one here after I needed help with apps beyond dRambo. Everyone who knows me knows who I am, so I don’t want to get into that but for brevity nor does it matter now, but it’s still the best forum I’ve ever had been in online.

    I don’t know, but I think LP4ipad is the big change because thats when I will say that account was deleted largely due to two members (who were actually banned maybe a week or two after my request for deletion), and then I regretted deletion my account because if I had waited for the mods to act and take care of it, they would’ve. , but I didn’t even know I could flag and ask for someone to do something’s about it really and I didn’t ask anyone to do something about it

    I won a contest and had this account just for creations like dRambo, but I never used it, so Then when I joined social media, for Gavin support and contests (I just often would leave comments not to win but for thanks in gratitude for his work, still think his tutorials are the best), I said I might as welll use it, but after going on social media apps I ran back here lmao and just used this

    Still I was cautious with what I said and who I said it to , certain members still I know if they say Something to not reply to it .

    Maybe I’m an oversensitive person but I have enough issues to deal with in real life I don’t come on here for problems or drama, it’s for information and musical exchanges

    I love to hear other people’s production, especially other genres than my own, because it broadens my perspective and appreciation for music. I found more new and different genres here than anywhere else

    I was surprised when I asked a question that someone that I’ve never seen post or interact, weighed in so heavy and specifically, and that he missed the point. But then when he used profanity and included my family in his analysis of my flaws I was like that’s it for me man. I got upset and the mods stepped in and took care of it quickly. I think they are amazing and do things here better than any other forum.

    No comparison - this forum is unlike any other forum, for music I know for sure

    With that said, due to my naïveté and not realizing my emails address was public, and I had unwittingly opened up Pandora’s box , so I actually , as others said, I started to write replies and I found myself deleting them, like I started to do before I deleted social media, so before I deleted this account and I don’t think it’s reversible I told a buddy I was taking a step back and I was also not going to post creations or reviews because I didn’t want to hear any negativity.

    Maybe like the heckler said I have a “fragile ego” but so what? I wasn’t offended until banned members crossed the line, especially the last one really went out of his way and now I kind of don’t even want to post .

    Pros: best forum ever for music production, good people, good discussion and information , great mods; great over all online experience, better than all places, devs are actually here, active , nowhere else like it online, best place I’ve met musician and one’s willing to share and discuss

    Con: since Logic people have been mean/er , and bots seem to have made it hard to tell when someone is being nasty or what ?

    I don’t know how to suggest improvements when I think it’s a great place, and it is an independent devs own site so it’s his generosity we can exchange info - maybe out of respect for him, remove what started the issue (Logic Pro category ? And then just ask the questions in general apps like any other daw? Idk?) It seems like to me, banned members are going out of their way to spam bot this place too, so I don’t know how to stop that

    I appreciate members like Gavin who ask A question like this , and ultimately it’s Michael’s site so we’re lucky to have this despite the recent influx of negativity - it is the best site if you are a music producer and use macs

  • @JMcM said:

    @knewspeak said:

    @JMcM said:
    Got worse during the “Recent Events” era but only if you went in there.

    In number of comments, Creations category is in 3rd place, behind Off Topic/Other.

    To make things better, less interaction in Off Topic/Other category, more interaction in the Creations category.

    I take it you joined after the ‘Recent Events’ category’s demise?

    Have been here before, during and after the demise :)

    I see, after it was taken down, I think the vast majority of members were actually unaware it had even existed, it was fairly well tucked away.

  • i used to like it here.

    but it now feels too clicky. the main people that dominate the threads have there favorites and if your not one of them its easy to feel excluded.

    when logic came out i was excited as its the first real major destkop app on ipad and at last apple released there pro apps for ipad which was alwsays a major thing. i thought people here would be happy about it as it could attract more devs and creators but the level of negativity from the dominant members was too much. maybe they felt threatened. they would jump into every thread to complain about the same things and they were only happy when they found bad thing in logic like bugs and missing features. they had there favorite apps and didnt want to like logic.

    it made me think they have no interest in ipad music becoming popular. they want it to be dificult so that they appear more clever maybe. it was a real buzkill. i wanted to come here to discuss cool things and feel good about making music but every thread would turn bad. and rather than feel bad about a silly internet forum its healthier for me to not be part of it.

    i do still lurk about here occasionaly and when i saw this thread though id say why i left. i know this is probably all on me but i dont feel good vibes here. if you do your probably one of the cool kids.

    tldr too much negativity and too clicky and it wasnt healthy for me.

  • Been lurking on this forum for a couple of years, and it's still a place that I find helpful and informative, and though it does seem like the vibe is different than when I first started to visit, it seems to be more like mobile music discussions that I participate in elsewhere, and less of a niche place focused on deep dives into apps and the underlying technology and scripting and so forth. There's certainly a vibrant core of people who do that, but it seems like a lot of other topics and comments are popping up, which are more social-media inspired than practical and educational and on-topic, so I just try to focus on the stuff that interests me, but it does seem harder. I enjoy a healthy, respectful debate about the quality of an app, or the responsiveness of a developer that is informative, but when the discussion becomes focused on the people who started the thread, or between people in the thread and not about music, apps, and so forth, I lose interest.

  • edited December 2023

    If you don’t like the community then don’t be part of it.

  • Uh oh, I’m being drawn into the fray. But it’s a benign fray as usual on the forum. Others here have probably already put similar thoughts in this thread but here are mine:

    I post very little so I haven’t had any bad experiences here. A member like @gavinski who is more prominent is probably more likely to get into more heated situations.

    I don’t see that many hostile or peculiar comments to put me off. I can just ignore anyone who might drone on and on. But also it can be weirdly fascinating as on all social media.

    Yes there are now tons of apps and possibilities with each. I’m always glad to see what devs are coming up with and I’m still susceptible to g.a.s. Each app can have a slightly different spin or outcome. Take arps for example. Many similarities but each one somehow has it’s own flavor.

    I’m glad that developers and ios music influencers have a place to show their wares and thank heaven (I mean @Michael ) there are NO ADS HERE!

    I love the Creations category and always feel guilty I’m not writing appreciative comments as much as I’d like but for me to write here requires being at my computer keyboard and that can stop me.

    Where else can our music be heard? I have a generally gloomy feeling about the state of art these days. We musicians might prefer to be playing/working on our own music rather that hear others. Especially when the computer and ipad have made creation and sharing so easy.

    I know when I get a bit of attention, either for sounds or comments, I feel a sense that I EXIST! in this world.

  • I used to check this forum first thing in the morning. I still do, but I used to, too.

  • I like this place, there are a lot of nice people. I listen to lots of creative, inspiring music here.

    I'd like to thank Michael for the forum, and thank the many positive forum members that have helped me over the years.

  • @exuser123 said:
    i used to like it here.

    but it now feels too clicky. the main people that dominate the threads have there favorites and if your not one of them its easy to feel excluded.

    when logic came out i was excited as its the first real major destkop app on ipad and at last apple released there pro apps for ipad which was alwsays a major thing. i thought people here would be happy about it as it could attract more devs and creators but the level of negativity from the dominant members was too much. maybe they felt threatened. they would jump into every thread to complain about the same things and they were only happy when they found bad thing in logic like bugs and missing features. they had there favorite apps and didnt want to like logic.

    it made me think they have no interest in ipad music becoming popular. they want it to be dificult so that they appear more clever maybe. it was a real buzkill. i wanted to come here to discuss cool things and feel good about making music but every thread would turn bad. and rather than feel bad about a silly internet forum its healthier for me to not be part of it.

    i do still lurk about here occasionaly and when i saw this thread though id say why i left. i know this is probably all on me but i dont feel good vibes here. if you do your probably one of the cool kids.

    tldr too much negativity and too clicky and it wasnt healthy for me.

    Yeah I found the anti logic pretty odd and disappointing. A few years ago though there was heavy anti-Auv3 energy….believe it or not…and peoplez finally came around 🎶

  • Here’s my personal non-negative and thereby boring take on this: I’ve been occasionally posting and responding on this forum since December2012, and only had one time I felt like I should apologize for. People have opinions and so be it. There’s people that like to stir the pot or have low tolerance of others peoples stuff. I feel like Michael has done great job over the years keeping us civilized in various ways. Better than a typical forum. I respect everyone that visits here, even the bots and drive-bys and I trust that all the venom will at least be thought out in a cool manner before being typed up here.

  • edited December 2023

    @Stochastically said:

    I know when I get a bit of attention, either for sounds or comments, I feel a sense that I EXIST! in this world.

    Deeper within, you are the school, not the fish. Even deeper, you are the ocean.

  • @pedro said:
    I used to check this forum first thing in the morning. I still do, but I used to, too.

    @realdawei said:

    @exuser123 said:
    i used to like it here.

    but it now feels too clicky. the main people that dominate the threads have there favorites and if your not one of them its easy to feel excluded.

    when logic came out i was excited as its the first real major destkop app on ipad and at last apple released there pro apps for ipad which was alwsays a major thing. i thought people here would be happy about it as it could attract more devs and creators but the level of negativity from the dominant members was too much. maybe they felt threatened. they would jump into every thread to complain about the same things and they were only happy when they found bad thing in logic like bugs and missing features. they had there favorite apps and didnt want to like logic.

    it made me think they have no interest in ipad music becoming popular. they want it to be dificult so that they appear more clever maybe. it was a real buzkill. i wanted to come here to discuss cool things and feel good about making music but every thread would turn bad. and rather than feel bad about a silly internet forum its healthier for me to not be part of it.

    i do still lurk about here occasionaly and when i saw this thread though id say why i left. i know this is probably all on me but i dont feel good vibes here. if you do your probably one of the cool kids.

    tldr too much negativity and too clicky and it wasnt healthy for me.

    Yeah I found the anti logic pretty odd and disappointing. A few years ago though there was heavy anti-Auv3 energy….believe it or not…and peoplez finally came around 🎶

    We're distrustful of Apple only because we've been doing business with them for a while now.

  • @Gavinski said:
    I've spoken to a few people who say they now rarely come around the Audiobus Forum because they think the vibe has deteriorated compared to what it used to be like. Some of those people still browse from time to time, but engage less.

    I'm curious how ppl feel about that, whether they agree or not.

    If you do agree, feel free to share thoughts on what the causes might be and how the atmosphere could be improved.

    I agree that the vibe is not as it used to be , but I find it normal . Compared to fb groups , reddit , gearspace and other forums , AB stands strong :)

  • 3-4 years ago: There were a handful of regulars who used to rub me the wrong way. I felt like there were a lot of negative posts scattered around back then as well. So I took an extended break from visiting this forum.

    Since I’ve been coming back daily (lol) there are so many regulars that I really like to see and interact with. So I am definitely a fan of the forum as it is right now. We have a lot of interesting people who have opinions that make me see things in different ways. I value that.

  • @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

    @pedro said:
    I used to check this forum first thing in the morning. I still do, but I used to, too.

    @realdawei said:

    @exuser123 said:
    i used to like it here.

    but it now feels too clicky. the main people that dominate the threads have there favorites and if your not one of them its easy to feel excluded.

    when logic came out i was excited as its the first real major destkop app on ipad and at last apple released there pro apps for ipad which was alwsays a major thing. i thought people here would be happy about it as it could attract more devs and creators but the level of negativity from the dominant members was too much. maybe they felt threatened. they would jump into every thread to complain about the same things and they were only happy when they found bad thing in logic like bugs and missing features. they had there favorite apps and didnt want to like logic.

    it made me think they have no interest in ipad music becoming popular. they want it to be dificult so that they appear more clever maybe. it was a real buzkill. i wanted to come here to discuss cool things and feel good about making music but every thread would turn bad. and rather than feel bad about a silly internet forum its healthier for me to not be part of it.

    i do still lurk about here occasionaly and when i saw this thread though id say why i left. i know this is probably all on me but i dont feel good vibes here. if you do your probably one of the cool kids.

    tldr too much negativity and too clicky and it wasnt healthy for me.

    Yeah I found the anti logic pretty odd and disappointing. A few years ago though there was heavy anti-Auv3 energy….believe it or not…and peoplez finally came around 🎶

    We're distrustful of Apple only because we've been doing business with them for a while now.

    Indeed…so an underlying anti-Apple bias seems to permeate the very DNA of this forum based on history. Quite a phenomenon

  • I must apologise for my initial reply in this thread. I was proper drunk and high last night, lol. At least I got one thing right - this forum is still better than most other places online. It's still a helpful, friendly forum, but sometimes those bad players still seep in through the cracks.

    But unlike other forums like Gear Space and KVR, Michael and Doug and Jo have and still do keep this place relatively chill. I don't envy their position in moderating the forum, but it's not nearly as volatile as other places online. So kudos and high praise are due.

    And we do seem to have the most supportive community of musicians on the internet out of pretty much anywhere else. People I've known for years, as well as relatively new people who are pretty cool.

  • I actually think this forum is better than ever and also raised an eyebrow at the original thread title.

    Major Hypes:

    • Michael - such a subtle guiding hand over the years. More impactful than we realise, I reckon.
    • Some awesome developers interact here. That’s a real privilege and we will miss it if it ever disappears.
    • The knowledgeable users. I have learned a lot from many posters over the years.
    • And just good people who don’t take themselves too seriously and generally look out for each other. Respect 👊

    Minor Gripes:

    • Sure, there’s a few egos... A couple of people who think their feedback is law. They like to boss developers around a bit to get their way and they tend to repeat their requests over and over.
    • Political bad actors. This has been well dealt with now but there’s definitely a couple of people who would drag a conversation down into the mire if they could.

    And that’s about it to be honest.

    One thing that would kill the forum for me is if the $ agendas started taking over and I did worry when Logic Pro came to iOS that we would start to get spammed by influencers and sample pack/preset sellers. It hasn’t happened thankfully and the few non-developers we have who are trying to make some iOS music related money on the side are a part of the community.

    Respect to the moderators for doing such an excellent job of delicately weeding out the real aggy scrappers.

    Keep on keeping on, people! It’s a good corner of the internet.

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