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Comments
@Igneous1 The mood that your new song forces to me to have is a "Happy" one. That's some achievement the way I've been lately so a massive Bluepunk thanks for that to start with.
With Adjacent Investment, it was the groove that stood out to me. Catalan Box has that as well but on the first listen it was the feel of your tune that I liked. You mentioned it being dense? Not for me. I think the oriental flavour I get, helps with that. I like the brief change in rhythm at 1.31. That's a cool change up. A very nice bass sound that keeps it all well balanced adds up to a well crafted song.
I've listened a few times now & I can hear all the hard graft & love you've given to your song, it's definitely paid off. Striking sounds & it does have that "flow" you worked so hard to get.
Thanks very much @JohnnyGoodyear,@rkmonkey,@AlterEgo_UK,@Richardyot,@Jocphone and @Bluepunk for your positive feedback on my song this month.It really means a lot! Richard you are right about the high end being a bit harsh.It may be the internal mic but to be honest I didn't do anything different than normal which leads me to thinking that I should have just EQ'd better!!:)
Johnny you are also right and you highlighted a good point,I do struggle with dynamics on my stuff a bit and I have been trying to work on that, I will continue to work on it but like you eluded to as a demo I feel I got it as could as my skill set allowed and I'm under no illusions that a pro engineer couldn't make it soooo much better!:D
Bluepunk,thanks mate but I'm not entirely sure how radio friendly this one would be with a lot of talk about "shit" and a rather prominent "fuck yeah!!":D I do appreciate the support though dude.
Thanks again dudes!:D
@Igneous1
Hey man,Pro's-I really liked the start of this one and how it kind of slides/settles into the beat.I also liked what was going on at about 1.30.I feel that you did achieve the flow you were looking for mate and you have lots of good and interesting little subtle change ups happening (as with all your stuff:) also it's a very good mix to my ears.
Not exactly con's-i gave it a good few listens but I think I mentioned this on the last track of yours and please don't be offended I just don't find it hooky enough for my taste.I do appreciate however that I don't listen to or make your kind of music so I maybe am just wildly missing the point.which wouldn't be the first time for me:) i also felt it was a bit too flutey/pipes in places this time. (Unless that's "your signature sound" as I have heard it on other tracks of yours in which case please ignore me....and by all means please just ignore me anyway if u feel so inclined:)
@Igneous1 great track. I think it flowed fine. The first minute really grooves. Great atmosphere and vibe.
@Bluepunk, Ta for the comments and for giving it a good listen
@rkmonkey, Ditto and I'm pleased to hear it 'flowed'
@LostBoy85, Thanks for your detailed comments (pros and cons). It's fair to say that it doesn't have a hook of any kind. I've said this before here, but I can't write a 'regular song' to save my life. I just do this stuff instead !
In case anyone is interested, the drums took the most time. There are two instances of London (different kits), two instances of Tokyo and one of Abu Dhabi, the different patterns became quite involved.
@Igneous1 I like this track, it does indeed flow well and the sections seem to relate to each other, it evolves in a pleasing way. I like the warm bass patches, the repeated motifs and the rhythms.
Hookiness is subjective and some of your previous tracks had plenty of hooky melodies that were buried by the chaotic structure, but actually I think the musical motifs in this one are hooky enough for me - this isn't a pop song, it's instrumental electronica and the catchiness of the music can be more subtle than in outright pop.
You are right of course Richard.Hookiness is subjective and some times the immediate hook can get old very quickly.I am for better or worse from the school of pop where you have to know the chorus off by heart by the end of a song on the first listen or else it's just not doing its job:) but I heard a songwriter say once that just cos something's catchy it doesn't mean it's good! He used the "Mr Blobby" song as an example:D I thought this was really interesting and as I thought about it I realised that some of the best songs I've discovered over the years have been ones that grow on me over time and I would love to know how to write one of those:)
Anyway,I'm rambling a bit but my point is that I guess I only ever listen to experimental electronica on this forum so as you correctly stated I may be looking for something that isn't usually prominent in that genre but is a more subtle evolving thing.
Point taken mate:)
Hi, I'm not trying to single you out Igneous, nor start a flamewar with the prevailing opinion of some of the SOTMC's longest standing stalwarts, but I do not fully agree with this philosophy and just happened to jump back into this thread on the comment above. This is something I've tried to articulate in the past, and thought might be worth another stab. So here goes ... Art is simply too subjective to be sure that a particular "honk," "wonk," or seemingly off-beat/dischordant passage wasn't intentional. Three quick examples:
DISCLAIMER - To be fair, there's also the fact that I'm a graphic designer, and as one funny article once put it, "contrary to popular opinion, most graphic designers don't take criticism well."
I have occasionally tried to foray into the world of constructive criticism with SOTMC, but I'm just not very good at it. I'm usually afraid the one thing I might mention needs a bit of work might be the one thing the artist was proudest of, or most deliberately performed, and I just didn't get it as a listener. So for me, I typically, perhaps naively, believe what an artist puts out there is by and large exactly what they intended to put out there. I try to focus on the areas where I feel like something resonated, either within the song or with me, and point out the things I think that artist is doing well.
Having been a corporate graphic designer and mostly sensible person for a few years in the past, I truly do understand the philosophy behind constructive criticism. I have first-hand experience with the notion that sometimes your second or third effort - with a little guidance or a few notes from the outside - will far outshine your first effort. I just usually don't feel qualified to make that subjective call myself. I think It is good that many here can and do. But I think pointing out the nice bits that you liked or worked well within the song is of equal value. Some artists need encouragement, and might not realize that that one part really did work, without outside corroboration.
And finding the good can sometimes be a challenge. Maybe even a bit of an art form in itself. Working off the analogy that a song is like somebody's baby, I remember once somebody showing me their newborn for the first time and it was like a mutant from planet X - but of course the mother was waiting for me to tell her what I thought of her wonderful new baby - scrambling, I analyzed the misshapen head and noticed he had piercing blue eyes. Thank god. I was then able to tell her that he had the most beautiful blue eyes, which side of the family was that from, etc. - and importantly for all concerned, it was genuine.
So I think there's room and value here to both approaches, and don't like to think of my comments as uncritical or of lesser value than a more constructive criticism-style comment. I listen to the tracks, sometimes multiple times, and put a fair amount of thought into my response. I just enjoy looking for the positive, it's kind of my thing. Heck, it's kind of implied in my username, if you look up "eustress."
Man, this turned into a god-awful ramble. How long have I been sitting here typing? Short version: The coin is equally valuable when viewed from the other side
BTW - the reason I don't always keep up with the SOTMC is because I can't always keep up with the SOTMC. I feel bad participating if I can't comment on at least most of the tracks. All too often I find myself 60 comments and 8 songs behind the eight ball, so ... I hope to clear up some time-clutter and submit/comment more soon.
I apologize for the overstuffed, overwrought post, and fervently hope nobody finds this clumsy attempt to explain another way of critiquing the least bit offensive or out of place. SOTMC is one of my favorite things about this forum
PS - it has occurred to me that perhaps the most valuable critique would be one that was equally balanced between praise for the good bits and "could stand to improve" on the perceived bad bits. Then I thought very few (definitely not me) could maintain that balancing act in perpetuity ... kudos to those who can and do.
HE CALL US ALL MUTANT FROM PLANET X BABY WITH LOTS OF WORDS GET HIM BOYS!!
Your lengthy post brought up some of my long standing thoughts and protocol.
I've been into iOS music for years and seen how apps and the music itself have developed over time.
What I see is that overall, iOS music had its own distinct flavour regardless of genre, and it doesn't conform to the standards that each genre maintains.
And many who make certain genres would no doubt have a keen interest in some of the leading players of each scene. But there is a difference, and a vital one for me.
I grew up in the rave scene and watched how electronica developed from old school electro, to techno, house, rave, hardcore, breakbeat , dnb, dubstep , trance..the whole works. And some of the more recent styles have been emulated on iOS, some very good but most, don't even come close to the standard. A lot of it is pretty experimental and is basically just that, an experiment.
I love that, how iOS apps can empower people on a low budget or little knowledge to make cool sounds. And there is an audience for that- here and the many soundcloud groups. And what happens is that there is a "comments tag game ", as well as a "I'll follow you if you follow me" kind of thing going on, and that's cool and I dig that too!
But that is not what I am personally about, for me, iOS music is not a hobby, it's a way I am trying my very best to try and get tracks up to club standards, that's my aim, to go beyond soundcloud etc and get tunes on radio, clubs etc..and I've had a few tracks over the years gone to that level, but not made any money really per se...I released one album on an indie label, it sold some copies and I got ripped off
Still I strive on....
I'm developing my own sound and receive positive and negative comments and that's great too.
But if I hear an iOS song that I think is bad, I dare not comment..especially if it's a genre that I do not resonate with or make myself, I will keep quiet not just out of fear of causing offence, but I'd rather just not get personally involved.
If I like something, then I will highlight what I like about it and leave it at that, unless I'm close friends with someone or professionally involved then I will not get into technicalities with them.
What is the point? Will they listen, can I truly help? What is the goal and vision for their music? Is it any of my damned business..
Here, I post my tracks, comment on a few I like but leave it at that. I will listen to the negative comments too, but sometimes I will internally question wether some are valid based on the standard, experience , knowledge and genre of the commenter..
How could I reasonably comment or advise those that make say downtempo or rock based music on here? I can't
So I just put my stuff here just to participate, I'm not bothered if I get extra plays or not, for me soundcloud is just a stashing place, I get between 60-200 listens per track and that's not a lot, but I like it cause it gets my stuff out there.
But I see the purpose of this SOTMC and that it is like a mutual arena where people meet, throw ideas and tips and that is sooo cool. We know the AB forum is the number one place to find news, reviews , music etc and that's that.
I think it's an individual relative thing here..
Hmm...some interesting points made fellas.
Your right @Touchconspiracy that any comments I would make about yours or @Igneous1 or many others is very unlikely to be of much use to you as..well,I'm not really your audience anyway and what the hell do I know about techno??:D however I think that commenting on your stuff helps ME more as I try to figure out different genres & what makes them tick and also helps me develop an appreciation of said genre and just how hard people work on their stuff.
We've got a great core group of guys here that's steadily growing and what's great is that we've gotten to know each other a bit and so for example I know that Johnny's not that bothered about the technical side of the mix but that his priorities lie in getting the song written and out there.So I don't talk about the mix.Richards not a fan of "back slapping" so much and would rather receive constructive criticism (if needed) as he's all about getting better at everything!:) which is why I told him I wasn't such a fan of his September song.
Touch you've just explained that you're looking to get back in the pro game.Matt is working on an EP and technically upping his game every month...& so on.So anyway my point is I kind of tailor my comments to what I think is most useful to those guys.
As for me,I'm not gonna lie I appreciate the back slapping.It has given me the confidence to keep up this hobby.Im also very grateful for the critiques that I get as they help me improve,but I think I would struggle if I was critiqued a lot though, but I guess we're all different.
I've said it a few times on here but I'm just happy to have somewhere troll free where I can share my songs,get some feedback and learn a bit.
And I like to think that I have improved over the last 6 months or so due to this club:)
The defense rests.
Great points, and it drives home my own point that it's a relative need and experience.
I don't need to post here, I want to, just for the sake of community, I like to think my tracks add to the amazing diversity here.
For you, and others that get a lot of out posting, getting feedback and encouragement that is absolutely amazing and I commend that and absolutely encourage that.
My own background and approach likely stands in stark contrast to most here as far as production goes.
I started as a scratch DJ in 84, was also a breakdancer. Then slowly house came on the scene, then acid, rave etc..I taught myself to mix, had friends that were top in their game, some still are, so had direct mentoring straight from the top.
I think I started seriously trying to produce maybe in 1999, I had a pc with reason and Sony acid, bring inspired by my then girlfriend who was using that software . I watched her a bit then one day she went upstairs for a bath and I was left to my own devices in her little home studio.
I loved it and found it was not so hard to create beats, grooves and bass lines.
So in one sense I was self taught. In the mid 2000s I had a few releases on an American label and then I got into iOS.
I just found the touchscreen amazing and it was sooo exciting watching apps develop from toys, into hopeful noisemakers and then apps such as nanostudio appeared that seemed to do it all in a very intuitive and friendly manner. I found it fun just to see what did what with these apps, I didn't RTFM as I preferred to just tinker and craft the sounds and sequences I wanted.
And it still holds true today, self taught, self sufficient and not at all bothered about the in betweens
The sole focus is to bring my sound to the masses somehow, someday, all on iOS , on my own terms , in my own way, all on my own
That's just me, I'm very specific about my methods and what I need to craft based on my knowledge as a DJ and from hanging out and having the privilege of, some very amazing producers who are totally solid and established. And I believe it is possible and that I will succeed.
Time is a factor though as I have a son and a girlfriend. So I take my time. I have totally settled with gadget and am getting to learn it to this day still. I still have not even really recorded or automated fx within gadget. I just felt at home with it right away as I love the UI, the overall mighty powerful sound it enables and the sheer ease of use.
It fits in right with my vision of iOS and my own music and the way I see iOS directly impacting the global dance music scene.
Because I believe that the sheer immediate nature of the touchscreen and the simplicity of the apps can create fast and profound results that don't get lost in the translation of desktop scenarios. And I think if more iOS artists set their goals on integrating within the so called EDM scene then this would help everyone involved in iOS music from developers to artists.
I'd like to know if any members here have that Similair vision..
You know that baby analogy was just for you, Johnny, etc.
Just making a (wordy) case for not dismissing the value of predominantly positive critiques, at least not as a matter of course. Some people want to help build/learn a skill set, and that's fine, but I believe confidence is 90% of any sport or performing art, so I feel much more comfortable offering that kind of support. Also, my point is not intended to reflect what I think about critiques others give - do as thou wilt, as the shady bald guy said.
Nothing new or revelatory, standard Skinner. Positive vs. Negative reinforcement and their respective pros and cons. Having seen some of the Positive reinforcement cons mentioned a few times over the months just made me want to stand up for the prose and write a 1,000 word essay. I know, I know ... GET A BLOG!!
Might've got lost in all those characters, but I think I mentioned SOTMC as one of my favorite things about this forum – solid bunch of people in here and a thriving bazaar of musical style exchange, featuring cast commentary
Word.
Anyone who gets on stage and delivers his level best under a giant "Boys R Us" logo has just GOT to be comfortable in his own skin - I can't see anything, even Armageddon, getting you down, man. Hell, you consistently deliver such strong vocal performances right here and you don't even have a microphone!
Word UP.
What I got you gotta give it to your mama. I have been moved and inspired by both words and song in this group
Yep. Rock and roll is about shaking booties. I am trying to meld the more admirable traits of old school thrash metal with the sonic madness and driving beats of EDM. iOS is all about sonic madness, and my DAW cost $25 bucks and the machine where it resides also delivers email and text messages and film editing and illustration apps.
If we're not on the same page, we're at least in the same book
We now return to our regularly scheduled programming ...
If you've got 25 minutes to spare, I think this video sums up what I believe the benefits of constructive criticism are (I posted this one a few months ago, but it's worth repeating here):
To repeat a point I made last month, we're all individuals, and everyone is going to have their own viewpoint, and that's cool - I think that the diversity we have here is a huge asset, and it's important for everyone to feel that their own viewpoint and musical style is respected, I really don't want this to turn into a a group where everyone has to conform to a certain way of doing things or a certain musical approach.
One thing that's really important is that if you don't agree with a crit, then you should ignore it, there is no pressure to act on it. On the other hand I believe it's really valuable to get people's honest opinions on the work, it gives you an insight you might not have had - for me that outweighs the negatives.
I personally have a a philosophy that it's important to separate one's ego from the work, and to try and judge the work objectively. That's something I always strive to do, which is why I generally am critical of my own work, because I try and appraise it in the way other people would. In the end I really think that helps you to improve and grow (if that's your aim, some people just want to have a fun and jam, and that's cool too).
However I also understand that most people respond better to positive comments than negative ones, so it's a question of getting the balance right.
The SOTMC shouldn't be some kind of bitch-fest where we're all trying to be wannabee Simon Cowells tearing each other's work apart, that's definitely not the vibe I would want here, so if criticism is given it should be done in the spirit of honesty, and only in reference to the work, not the individual. Because sometimes when criticism is given in the right spirit it can really help to improve someone's work, and help them to consider how other people react to their music (if that's important to them).
@eustressor and @touchconspiracy,
You both make fair points and I'II admit I've been uneasy about making critiques of people's work in the past, but (as I see it) the SOTMC is intended for that reason. I'm sure some people don't feel comfortable about submitting a track that may be criticised, thats understandable. But, as Richard said, anyone can just ignore anything they feel isn't relevant / helpful.
Personally, I think technical crits are okay. Having been on other forums where people only say gushingly positive things about their fellow artists work (primarily as encouragement), doesn't really help anyone, in my view.
Good points, and I feel that it can take "many ears" to judge a track before it's ready for release
What I'm saying is that sometimes it might be more beneficial if some critique was more specialist so to speak
For example, I published a track "the realm of surrender", it was around 7 minutes long and deliberately so as it was a progressive techno track. Lots of tracks like that are long, not intended to be short and to the point club bangers per se. The only critique was some said it was too long. So, I wanted it long, that was the intention yet some advised I shorten it. If I would have done so, then it would not have been the track I intended.
However, if it were a different style then I might have trimmed it. So your point about not having to respond to critique you don't agree with is quite laudable .
I'm in no way feeling critique is negative here on SOTMC, I feel we are all polite on here and that it serves a great purpose
Yes, technical critique is essential, for example i had some comments about the wrong choice of kick drum and snares or hi hats to high in the mix, went back and listened and made some tweaks with levels etc and it did help
Except that now you have responded we get a better insight into the context of that track. SOTMC is turning into a journey for many of us. The other side of critique isn't adequately covered by 'just ignore it' though, sure it can help survive the tougher remarks but I think it's much more valuable if the discussion continues. It helps us all in creating a common language in order better explore each other's work.
And for the record, the only problem I had with your 7 minute long track (if I am thinking of the right one) was that you took it down before I had a chance to listen to all of it properly. It can take several days or longer to find a time where you have no distractions in order to give the music a good listen.
Yeah, as online communities go, I think this a good'un.
Thanx
But I didn't take it down..
I'm planning a longer one..kind of a journey of genres, something more to listen to rather than just dance to
I love the points you made btw
Not sure @touchconspiracy, did you remove it from the thread? Could have been another track, or even someone else
I gave it a couple of listens just now and the length didn't particularly trouble me. In fact it may have even helped here as the track goes through some subtle changes over its 7 minutes. It's got quite a celebratory feel overall so I'm kinda wondering how that fits with the title, I guess you might be celebrating if an opponent surrenders. I'm probably overthinking it.
I was only listening with my iPad speakers but you seem to have a knack to pitching the bass where it still comes through in less than perfect listening conditions. I'm thinking maybe I need to add a few higher frequencies/harmonics when I add a bass in my own tracks.
One handy trick to make sure bass reproduces well on tiny speakers as well as huge speakers is to duplicate your bass track, then use EQ (Pro-Q in Auria is great for this) to throw both a highpass and lowpass shelf on the dupe, until you have a rounded bell shape coming off the sound floor from (roughly) 200 - 500hz. Make sure to also drop the peak of the bell well below 0db, say around -6 or even -12db. Test through cheap/small speakers to see how much you need to bring this up in the mix, but it's not intended to be overtly audible, so probably keep the fader lower than your full throttle bass, even with the EQ cuts, then season to taste.
It's meant to be subtle, as 200-500 is also the "muddy" zone, but that little "under the sonar" boost in the mids gives small speakers something more to grab onto when reproducing your bass without really affecting the bass sound in more capable speakers and sound systems.
Thanks for the tip.
My entry for this month. It's more experimental than usual, and although I don't think it's necessarily all that successful there's some ideas in there that I might develop more in the future. I don't think it's a great song, but it has been a good way to play with some new ideas.
Lyrics here:
http://www.itchy-animation.co.uk/lyrics/buzzards.txt
@richardyot I was welcomed into your latest tune with what sounded like a contented, exercised, panting dog which is & always has been a comforting sound to me. Then at 0.13 is it a glockenspiel? I heard it sung in your lyrics. A very pure, almost innocent sound that hooked me from the first listen. That is catchy & after a few more listens I found myself humming it.
Then that wonderful evolving, dark, eerie bass at 0.42 complements the lighter glock. The South American type rhythm (1.34) sits perfectly underneath & suits your song. When that changes to a more straight beat it, another texture is added. I wasn't expecting this & I wondered whether the first rhythm would continue through but with some more percussion bits to highlight it even more.
I've just read your lyrics & confirmed the glock. A clever wordsmith you are & I particularly enjoyed your chorus. "The buzzards are awake." Oh yes they are.
Experimental? Maybe but to me the glock enables your song to sit firmly on the "pop"side of the fence. Can I ask what apps/instruments you used? I really enjoyed this, your latest offering & if you have plans to develop the song further I would be interested & happy to hear it.
@richardyot Like the lyrics a lot. Beginning atmosphere beguiling. I would like the vocals to be 20 per cent less reverby (technical term). Just a bit more cutting edge to them, especially in the second chorus where there is more urgency. The vocal generally put me in mind of some sequences from PF's The Wall. Just the feel.
Need to do some ornithological research and see/hear what buzzards squawking actually sound like. Your walk-on extras in the background sounded a little like seagull variants
I am in favor of 'left-field' attempts from whatever is one's usual stuff. I think it (forgive me) helps spread the wings and is generally helpful overall. And can be fun, expressive, which is always good.
If I could add one thing here it would be more menace somehow, but do not have an easy fix for how that might be done.