The Sad Reality of Music

AQ808

@carol said:

@JohnnyGoodyear said:
@AQ808 Interesting arbitrary business age. Used to be 'don't trust anyone over 30', now it's 50. I'm guessing you're over 30

I could be wrong but I think hes saying under 30 and over 50 = bad but his age range inbetween = super talented lol

No, more like boomers and millennials at constant war for opinion entitlement, while facing the tragic reality that one is destined to become the other. I would have to describe it as being Switzerland.

CalCutta

@carol said:

@JohnnyGoodyear said:
@AQ808 Interesting arbitrary business age. Used to be 'don't trust anyone over 30', now it's 50. I'm guessing you're over 30

I could be wrong but I think hes saying under 30 and over 50 = bad but his age range inbetween = super talented lol

Actually it wasn't and for as much as the OP may seem like aimless ranting, this post feels like an intentional obfuscation because you don't like the message...

carol

@CalCutta said:

@carol said:

@JohnnyGoodyear said:
@AQ808 Interesting arbitrary business age. Used to be 'don't trust anyone over 30', now it's 50. I'm guessing you're over 30

I could be wrong but I think hes saying under 30 and over 50 = bad but his age range inbetween = super talented lol

Actually it wasn't and for as much as the OP may seem like aimless ranting, this post feels like an intentional obfuscation because you don't like the message...

Po

funjunkie27

Agreed with @carol on here ageism comment. Substitute black, Jew, homosexual, or any other classification in place of "over 50", and it sounds phobic, with the only difference being that you will likely land in the over 50 class yourself.

JeffChasteen

Everything after Edison's "Mary Had A Little Lamb" is just derivative trash!

telecode101

Did someone cut up your music/art? Don't worry about it. It happens all the time to everyone. Different people like different things. Don't forget that even the most niche type of art/music/books/literature (whatever) will have an audience. Just stick to your guns and keep putting it out there.

"it was nearly impossible to separate bullshit from reality until the arrival of the widespread internet in the late 90s/early 00s"

The above statement I completely disagree with you. I feel that the advent of the modern Internet (2.0 or 3.0 or whatever they are going to want to label it next year) almost everything online seems to be layered with some bullshit. It's an endless stream of everyone and everything is happier, cooler, more upbeat, slimmer, smarter then you are and the grass so much greener in everyone else's their life and world. The reality is usually a much colder and sadder truth.

When it comes to music, people search out the music they want to hear. So let them search it out and let them enjoy what they want to hear. If someone wants to listen to Drake and Rhianna all day long, that's just as valid in my books as someone else wanting to listen to The National or Bonobo or whatever..

RE: old fart music. What is that exactly? I don't know what that is and quite franking I never did and I never accepted that label to music.

JohnnyGoodyear

@CalCutta said:

@carol said:

@JohnnyGoodyear said:
@AQ808 Interesting arbitrary business age. Used to be 'don't trust anyone over 30', now it's 50. I'm guessing you're over 30

I could be wrong but I think hes saying under 30 and over 50 = bad but his age range inbetween = super talented lol

Actually it wasn't and for as much as the OP may seem like aimless ranting, this post feels like an intentional obfuscation because you don't like the message...

Po

CalCutta

@funjunkie27 said:
Agreed with @carol on here ageism comment. Substitute black, Jew, homosexual, or any other classification in place of "over 50", and it sounds phobic, with the only difference being that you will likely land in the over 50 class yourself.

In rebuttal, the OP has a point. This thread has someone responding dismissing "RAP"...an entire culture. Just last week some other idiot on this board made a troll thread implying that only the most standard and old ideas of musical virtuosity are marks of talent, and a lot of people here ate that nonsense up.

CalCutta

@JohnnyGoodyear said:

@CalCutta said:

@carol said:

@JohnnyGoodyear said:
@AQ808 Interesting arbitrary business age. Used to be 'don't trust anyone over 30', now it's 50. I'm guessing you're over 30

I could be wrong but I think hes saying under 30 and over 50 = bad but his age range inbetween = super talented lol

Actually it wasn't and for as much as the OP may seem like aimless ranting, this post feels like an intentional obfuscation because you don't like the message...

Po

Boy, Face, River, or Valley?

anickt

LOL - the "99% bullshit" to "1% quality information" ratio has existed for long before the Internet and still continues to this day. The Internet has not changed that. If anything, it has given an even larger platform to the 99% making it even more difficult to find the 1%.

As far as hating on the experiences of "over 50's", you don't know what it was like to experience something in music that never existed before i.e.: flanged drums or a drum machine in a pop song or some of the Beatles studio trickery or a distorted electric guitar or music made from samples or Stockhausen/Kraftwerk/Gary Numan/Wendy Carlos/Keith Emerson et al.

The first time I heard many of these things was the first time they existed. It was pretty exciting stuff and it's pretty hard to replicate those experiences in today's "instant everything" world.

AQ808

@CalCutta said:

@carol said:

@JohnnyGoodyear said:
@AQ808 Interesting arbitrary business age. Used to be 'don't trust anyone over 30', now it's 50. I'm guessing you're over 30

I could be wrong but I think hes saying under 30 and over 50 = bad but his age range inbetween = super talented lol

Actually it wasn't and for as much as the OP may seem like aimless ranting, this post feels like an intentional obfuscation because you don't like the message...

That is true. I know most people here are over 50, so I am expecting to reap the whirlwind.

AQ808

@anickt said:
LOL - the "99% bullshit" to "1% quality information" ratio has existed for long before the Internet and still continues to this day. The Internet has not changed that. If anything, it has given an even larger platform to the 99% making it even more difficult to find the 1%.

As far as hating on the experiences of "over 50's", you don't know what it was like to experience something in music that never existed before i.e.: flanged drums or a drum machine in a pop song or some of the Beatles studio trickery or a distorted electric guitar or music made from samples or Stockhausen/Kraftwerk/Gary Numan/Wendy Carlos/Keith Emerson et al.

The first time I heard many of these things was the first time they existed. It was pretty exciting stuff and it's pretty hard to replicate those experiences in today's "instant everything" world.

Exhibit B

funjunkie27

I agree that it happens @CalCutta ....it's the generalization that everyone over 50 is guilty. I am probably guilty of it as well, but I try to rein it in, and I also know plenty of young people who dismiss what I like as well. I try to be respectful of tastes and believe most people on this forum are pretty open minded. The tools we're buying up on iOS prove it out even...Turnado, Different Drummer, and countless other apps I own aren't necessarily a match for the music I grew up with.

anickt

@AQ808 said:

@anickt said:
LOL - the "99% bullshit" to "1% quality information" ratio has existed for long before the Internet and still continues to this day. The Internet has not changed that. If anything, it has given an even larger platform to the 99% making it even more difficult to find the 1%.

As far as hating on the experiences of "over 50's", you don't know what it was like to experience something in music that never existed before i.e.: flanged drums or a drum machine in a pop song or some of the Beatles studio trickery or a distorted electric guitar or music made from samples or Stockhausen/Kraftwerk/Gary Numan/Wendy Carlos/Keith Emerson et al.

The first time I heard many of these things was the first time they existed. It was pretty exciting stuff and it's pretty hard to replicate those experiences in today's "instant everything" world.

Exhibit B

So what is going on in music today that has never been done before? Wub bass? WOW!!

I like music that appeals to me - some of it is from "now" and some of it is from "then". I try not to pigeon-hole. How it was made and who made it isn't that important.

I'm pretty sure you missed my point.

AQ808

@funjunkie27 said:
Agreed with @carol on here ageism comment. Substitute black, Jew, homosexual, or any other classification in place of "over 50", and it sounds phobic, with the only difference being that you will likely land in the over 50 class yourself.

I'm discussing a certain type of programming which is exhibited in people who were propagandized at a certain age and are programmed to shit on everything else which ever existed since that time.

It's like an old cult, or social organization which no longer exists but most people of a certain age were a member of.

I don't think you can cry "ageism" in such a case. There is always more than enough space to criticize the "old order", and those who cling to it.

CalCutta

@funjunkie27 said:
I agree that it happens @CalCutta ....it's the generalization that everyone over 50 is guilty. I am probably guilty of it as well, but I try to rein it in, and I also know plenty of young people who dismiss what I like as well. I try to be respectful of tastes and believe most people on this forum are pretty open minded. The tools we're buying up on iOS prove it out even...Turnado, Different Drummer, and countless other apps I own aren't necessarily a match for the music I grew up with.

I do agree that generalizing anyone over 50 is foolish and for the record, I don't agree with all of the OP. I definitely think the OP has some valid points though. This board is very Prog-centric, for instance, and can come off as close-minded to a lot of newer music (see the "best musician under 40" thread, or a few posts in this one...among many others here).

I absolutely think there is a valid discussion to be had as far as a the imbalance between current living generations and their control over culture. To cut to the chase, specifically Baby Boomers (esp. those who represent "popular culture", less the John Cage/John Coltrane side, if that makes sense) and their reluctance to acknowledge the contributions of younger cultures, and you're damn right this is a real problem.

telecode101

@AQ808 said:

@anickt said:
LOL - the "99% bullshit" to "1% quality information" ratio has existed for long before the Internet and still continues to this day. The Internet has not changed that. If anything, it has given an even larger platform to the 99% making it even more difficult to find the 1%.

As far as hating on the experiences of "over 50's", you don't know what it was like to experience something in music that never existed before i.e.: flanged drums or a drum machine in a pop song or some of the Beatles studio trickery or a distorted electric guitar or music made from samples or Stockhausen/Kraftwerk/Gary Numan/Wendy Carlos/Keith Emerson et al.

The first time I heard many of these things was the first time they existed. It was pretty exciting stuff and it's pretty hard to replicate those experiences in today's "instant everything" world.

Exhibit B

You are totally trolling OP and you are ruining a very active and constructive web community dedicated towards making interesting iPad based music. Whats your angle exactly? You got bored of posting "she so ugly" to Taylor Swift videos on youtube so now you came here to get some laughs?

AQ808

@telecode101 said:

@AQ808 said:

@anickt said:
LOL - the "99% bullshit" to "1% quality information" ratio has existed for long before the Internet and still continues to this day. The Internet has not changed that. If anything, it has given an even larger platform to the 99% making it even more difficult to find the 1%.

As far as hating on the experiences of "over 50's", you don't know what it was like to experience something in music that never existed before i.e.: flanged drums or a drum machine in a pop song or some of the Beatles studio trickery or a distorted electric guitar or music made from samples or Stockhausen/Kraftwerk/Gary Numan/Wendy Carlos/Keith Emerson et al.

The first time I heard many of these things was the first time they existed. It was pretty exciting stuff and it's pretty hard to replicate those experiences in today's "instant everything" world.

Exhibit B

You are totally trolling OP and you are ruining a very active and constructive web community dedicated towards making interesting iPad based music. Whats your angle exactly? You got bored of posting "she so ugly" to Taylor Swift videos on youtube so now you came here to get some laughs?

Exhibit C

telecode101

@anickt said:
LOL - the "99% bullshit" to "1% quality information" ratio has existed for long before the Internet and still continues to this day. The Internet has not changed that. If anything, it has given an even larger platform to the 99% making it even more difficult to find the 1%.

As far as hating on the experiences of "over 50's", you don't know what it was like to experience something in music that never existed before i.e.: flanged drums or a drum machine in a pop song or some of the Beatles studio trickery or a distorted electric guitar or music made from samples or Stockhausen/Kraftwerk/Gary Numan/Wendy Carlos/Keith Emerson et al.

The first time I heard many of these things was the first time they existed. It was pretty exciting stuff and it's pretty hard to replicate those experiences in today's "instant everything" world.

I had an interesting discussion with my quasi band last week about the deterioration of Phil Collins as a musical artist, from one of the best drummers in rock music to one of the sappiest baladeers in music. We were discussing the gated drum sound that revolutionized pop music in the mid to late 80s and the influence he had on it. It's a little cheezy now but it sounded so amazing when I was a kid.

[Deleted User]

I may be wrong, but if the thread was talking about musical heroes of the past, only some strictly interpret that as just talent. Talent exists in all ages and age of human kind. Heroes of music are more pronounced in certain eras due to circumstances of the age (media etc).

Talent is everywhere, but the internet does not always make it easier to find.

Remember talent, skill and fame are not always bed fellows.

Cool for us all to have an outletting of verbal, but the generalisations used won't get hidden in pretty language.

funjunkie27

I'm all for an open discussion @CalCutta and agree that there are issues between the generations that merit it, but with statements like "Also, try not to argue with anyone over 50", I don't think @AQ808 wants to hear what us old farts have to say, although if we're mature enough it shouldn't devolve into an argument anyway.

[Deleted User]

@AQ808 said:
If we apply the same notion of "progress" which we associate with technology to music theory, we might simultaneously build institutions which promote the "codified wisdom".

If the current generation are brainwashed into believing that the "codified wisdom" is the root of all music, then they fall pray to being a slave and victim to nostalgia.

In other words, modern music has been strangled by the prescriptive nature of music instruction, and will continue to be unless and until more descriptive instruction practices are developed and promoted.

Also, try not to argue with anyone over 50 regarding the state of music, as they've had at least 50 years of industry brainwashing through Top 10 lists in magazines, fawning documentaries, and pay to play broadcasting, that they have no capacity to come to any conversation regarding music with anything close to an unbiased opinion. The disappointing thing is that nearly all of them believe their opinion is original rather than "industry implanted".

I feel like art really can die if you take it to the internet where every one of these old farts feel entitled to blast anyone doing anything other than what they've been industry brainwashed to believe is "great". The tragedy of the internet is that it has given these entitled shits far more of a voice than they deserve.

If you were a teen in the 90s, then you will understand a certain shift which occurred around 2000. Basically, people would go to coffee shops and all night diners to communicate with others and try to get leads on new information. Without a mobile worldwide internet, aside for hoping that a local bookstore or library would actually cater to the subject I was interested in, the best I could do would be to try and meet someone who could make a suggestion of something to follow up on, such as bands, books, movies, etc...

The fatal flaw with this method was that, without a widespread internet which could be used to verify anything discussed, the result was that I'd get 99% bullshit information, often made up out of thin air, to the 1% quality information. This was a horrible return on investment as it was nearly impossible to separate bullshit from reality until the arrival of the widespread internet in the late 90s/early 00s, so the end result is that I'd be spending my time trying to understand truth from bullshit, and had to be in a bit of a fog of confusion constantly as a result.

Well, this is just a Public Service Announcement to the youth who are not old enough to have visibly witnessed this change in social history:

After the internet, the Opinionated Bullshitters were stripped to what they always in reality were, Opinionated Assholes.

Do whatever you can to keep your musical ambition and art from these people. They are programmed to shit on you.

Try to get into creative musical spaces with people around the same age who haven't been handed down these ignorant attitudes or programmed to have them, or the very rare bird of any age who wasn't one of these assholes in the first place.

Look for constructive and deconstructive spaces instead of obviously destructive ones.

If you ever wonder why older people claim that the internet has lead to a lack of socialization and an increase of personal isolation, keep in mind that many of us stepped into a reality where we were objectively able to separate the bullshitters from those who actually knew what they were talking about, and sadly, bullshitters were the vast majority. It can definitely corrode your faith in humanity, assuming you had any to begin with.

These are just some things I was mulling while reading another thread here today... and then shit got real!!! Sorry ya'll.

Exhibit C

telecode101

@AQ808 said:

@funjunkie27 said:
Agreed with @carol on here ageism comment. Substitute black, Jew, homosexual, or any other classification in place of "over 50", and it sounds phobic, with the only difference being that you will likely land in the over 50 class yourself.

I'm discussing a certain type of programming which is exhibited in people who were propagandized at a certain age and are programmed to shit on everything else which ever existed since that time.

It's like an old cult, or social organization which no longer exists but most people of a certain age were a member of.

I don't think you can cry "ageism" in such a case. There is always more than enough space to criticize the "old order", and those who cling to it.

There is no such thing as "programming". People are a product of their culture, environment and their education level. A blue collar resident living in the middle of nowhere in the US south is going to naturally gravitate towards listening to country and southern rock music and drinking Bud beer all weekend long. A hipster living in Toronto is going to naturally gravitate away from it. It does not make either person a bad small minded person.

[Deleted User]

@CalCutta said:

@funjunkie27 said:
Agreed with @carol on here ageism comment. Substitute black, Jew, homosexual, or any other classification in place of "over 50", and it sounds phobic, with the only difference being that you will likely land in the over 50 class yourself.

In rebuttal, the OP has a point. This thread has someone responding dismissing "RAP"...an entire culture. Just last week some other idiot on this board made a troll thread implying that only the most standard and old ideas of musical virtuosity are marks of talent, and a lot of people here ate that nonsense up.

So if you say someone is an idiot because he doesn´t like a genre....you should look into a mirror....may see an idiot there as well?!?
Don´t liking a genre doesn´t have to do anything with dismissing a whole generation of musicians or culture....
you see....now this thread transforms in another bullshit on the net (i´m guilty too since i participated here) because every word said is right or wrong, black or white no greyscales allowed.
We are all IDIOTS here.... love it or leave it!

[Deleted User]

@Cinebient said:

@CalCutta said:

@funjunkie27 said:
Agreed with @carol on here ageism comment. Substitute black, Jew, homosexual, or any other classification in place of "over 50", and it sounds phobic, with the only difference being that you will likely land in the over 50 class yourself.

In rebuttal, the OP has a point. This thread has someone responding dismissing "RAP"...an entire culture. Just last week some other idiot on this board made a troll thread implying that only the most standard and old ideas of musical virtuosity are marks of talent, and a lot of people here ate that nonsense up.

So if you say someone is an idiot because he doesn´t like a genre....you should look into a mirror....may see an idiot there as well?!?
Don´t liking a genre doesn´t have to do anything with dismissing a whole generation of musicians or culture....
you see....now this thread transforms in another bullshit on the net (i´m guilty too since i participated here) because every word said is right or wrong, black or white no greyscales allowed.
We are all IDIOTS here.... love it or leave it!

Yep, right there. I should have just avoided this one

telecode101

@funjunkie27 said:
I'm all for an open discussion @CalCutta and agree that there are issues between the generations that merit it, but with statements like "Also, try not to argue with anyone over 50", I don't think @AQ808 wants to hear what us old farts have to say, although if we're mature enough it shouldn't devolve into an argument anyway.

OP has no "deep message". This is just a poorly written "How to better deal with Millenians(Boomers) in the workplace" post. There are a thousands of these going on all the time. It's a result of too many young people in the labor force without full time employment and stability and are forced to hold off starting families and buying houses -- and too many older people in the labor force hanging onto their full time employment and stability because they would be a complete idiot to just walk away leave it all to take a minimum wage job with no health benefits at walmart at a time in their lives when they will actually be needing those health benefits the most. The clash happens when these two types of people have to interact in public.

anickt

@telecode101 said:

@AQ808 said:

@funjunkie27 said:
Agreed with @carol on here ageism comment. Substitute black, Jew, homosexual, or any other classification in place of "over 50", and it sounds phobic, with the only difference being that you will likely land in the over 50 class yourself.

I'm discussing a certain type of programming which is exhibited in people who were propagandized at a certain age and are programmed to shit on everything else which ever existed since that time.

It's like an old cult, or social organization which no longer exists but most people of a certain age were a member of.

I don't think you can cry "ageism" in such a case. There is always more than enough space to criticize the "old order", and those who cling to it.

There is no such thing as "programming". People are a product of their culture, environment and their education level. A blue collar resident living in the middle of nowhere in the US south is going to naturally gravitate towards listening to country and southern rock music and drinking Bud beer all weekend long. A hipster living in Toronto is going to naturally gravitate away from it. It does not make either person a bad small minded person.

Agreed and To take it one step further, the blue collar, country listening Bud man and the hipster are everywhere. I'm within less than 100 yards of both in the northeast US. We can peacefully co-exist if we want to.

CalCutta

@funjunkie27 said:
I'm all for an open discussion @CalCutta and agree that there are issues between the generations that merit it, but with statements like "Also, try not to argue with anyone over 50", I don't think @AQ808 wants to hear what us old farts have to say, although if we're mature enough it shouldn't devolve into an argument anyway.

I agree that quote is unwarranted. I'd be lying if I said I don't understand where the frustration comes from. I would love to see the reaction of most Baby Boomers if a Millenial wrote a book called "The Greatest Generation" and it became a bestseller...

CalCutta

@Cinebient said:

@CalCutta said:

@funjunkie27 said:
Agreed with @carol on here ageism comment. Substitute black, Jew, homosexual, or any other classification in place of "over 50", and it sounds phobic, with the only difference being that you will likely land in the over 50 class yourself.

In rebuttal, the OP has a point. This thread has someone responding dismissing "RAP"...an entire culture. Just last week some other idiot on this board made a troll thread implying that only the most standard and old ideas of musical virtuosity are marks of talent, and a lot of people here ate that nonsense up.

So if you say someone is an idiot because he doesn´t like a genre....you should look into a mirror....may see an idiot there as well?!?
Don´t liking a genre doesn´t have to do anything with dismissing a whole generation of musicians or culture....
you see....now this thread transforms in another bullshit on the net (i´m guilty too since i participated here) because every word said is right or wrong, black or white no greyscales allowed.
We are all IDIOTS here.... love it or leave it!

Nah I stand by my point. Your dismissal of "RAP" comes off as ignorant and ageist. Your attempt to compare to my posts which don't dismiss any cultures outright also comes off as both ignorant, and bitter.

CalCutta

@telecode101 said:

@funjunkie27 said:
I'm all for an open discussion @CalCutta and agree that there are issues between the generations that merit it, but with statements like "Also, try not to argue with anyone over 50", I don't think @AQ808 wants to hear what us old farts have to say, although if we're mature enough it shouldn't devolve into an argument anyway.

OP has no "deep message". This is just a poorly written "How to better deal with Millenians(Boomers) in the workplace" post. There are a thousands of these going on all the time. It's a result of too many young people in the labor force without full time employment and stability and are forced to hold off starting families and buying houses -- and too many older people in the labor force hanging onto their full time employment and stability because they would be a complete idiot to just walk away leave it all to take a minimum wage job with no health benefits at walmart at a time in their lives when they will actually be needing those health benefits the most. The clash happens when these two types of people have to interact in public.

hahaha you really think that super specific scenario you named is the origin of this frustration? Really?

It's way deeper than that...