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I'm cool with that. The funny thing about being on this side of the debate is that it's been eye-opening to disagree with most of one's natural tribe, that being the liberal-left.
I don't like nationalism and xenophobia, but the current debate has given me some insight into the plight of those who voted leave (even if it was for the wrong reasons), and I think that the left in general, and the Labour party in particular, is in danger of developing a blind spot towards the concerns of a large swathe of people whose interests it should be representing. Of course nationalism is not the answer, but we should be offering hope instead of fear.
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/8702/european-politicians-extend-hand-friendship-scotland-after-brexit-vote
Looks like England isn't leaving the EU. England is leaving the UK. Whatever it does after that is it's own business
I just listened the french media and people ...There are a lot of euroseptic here ...
@OscarSouth if the Scottish people want independence that is definitely their right. I think the only problem will the currency, it's either the Euro or the Pound. The Pound would be the better choice but there is always a heavy price to pay for not being in control of, and issuing your own, currency. Monetary policy will be set in London or Brussels, and Scotland's hands will be tied. It's easier as part of the UK because of fiscal transfers, but much harder out of the Union.
But for example, if a big Scottish bank such as RBS needed recapitalising next week, the BoE would do it automatically. Once Scotland was out of the Union that would no longer be an option, and the bank would have to fail, with all the consequences that entails. Having your own central bank is an enormous benefit that Scotland currently enjoys as part of the UK. An independent Scotland would not have that.
That being said I'm pretty sure Scotland will be independent, and will find a way to make it work.
The Leave campaign was complicit in stirring up xenophobia, not Remain. The Labour Party is not responsible for clearing up the mess and racial tension that Leave leaders have created.
And Farage is continuing to wreck Britains trade potential with his idiotic, smug EU speech.
Saying that though I wish Labout would stop squabbling and get on with doing something positive.
Seemed to be fine because that is what the media would have you believe. There are a LOT of poor people in England who are disenfranchised. You have the right wing Government and a centre right opposition (albeit led by a lefty). As we speak, that centre right opposition are trying their damndest to get rid of their leader. Folk are desperate and this is a vote for change. In Scotland we have a very effective Scottish Government to throw our weight behind. At least I feel I do.
I agree, the leave campaign was revolting, the dog-whistling was deafening.
But I think the Labour party does bear some responsibility for the millions who feel abandoned by the current system. The more people feel left out in the cold, the more the demagogues gain traction, you can see the same thing in the US with Trump.
I posted this already, but the John Harris "Anywhere But Westminster" films give a good, non-judgemental, insight into the leave vote. Basically the educated "haves" voted remain, and the "have-nots" voted leave. The Labour Party should be offering some hope to those people, rather than ignoring them. Investment and jobs would go a long way towards silencing the likes of Farage.
Anywhere But Westminster
Yeah. I think that in this political landscape these fine economic details are going to be largely irrelevant to this decision. Those were for the first Scottish referendum and everyone now understands those things moderately clearly. This will be a more emotional and reactive vote. If Scotland leaves to open EU arms then Northern Ireland, Gibraltar and anywhere else with a strong opinion and moral high ground will attempt to follow, effectively making the UK's decision to trigger article 50 and exit the EU a decision to exit the UK.
England has no hope of taking any positive effects from departing from EU, because there is no leadership and will likely spend the next 6 years squabbling, infighting, passing the blame around and generally acting completely ineffectively.
This entire situation is a big mess and no outcome is really positive, but if Scotland's more effective leadership can break away from England and leave it to rot on it's own, that's at least a small positive to be salvaged.
But this is all down to the misinformation in the Leave campaign, and the right-wing controlled media's reporting bias. The Guardian can take some blame for all this too, they've spent the majority of the last 9 months trying to oust Jeremy Corbyn, instead of highlighting what the Tories and Brexiters were up to. As a daily reader of The Guardian, and a Facebook follower of J Corbyn - I'd read how he confronted the PM on such and such an issue, while in The Guardian they'd be reporting he'd said nothing.
Who knows what the Labour party and Leave supporters were saying in the run-up to the vote. For all we know they could have been desperately trying to highlight the chasm between the reality of Farage's NHS money statements and what would actually happen - with Murdoch and co controlling the media unless you're particularly thorough you'll only read what they want you to read.
As for what they're doing now - the opportunistic Labour MP's that are calling for a leadership election instead of helping fix the current crisis, were the one's stabbing JC in the back nine months ago.
Ha-ha
I like this one, covers Brexit, Scotland, and Greece:
The knives were out for poor 'Red Ed' prior to Corbyn, SNP's inevitable rise was due to the impotent left infighting, still no lessons learned. Yet the media still chase the leader down the street 'shaky camera' - shady character, they have even started this tactic on Hilary Benn. Now if Labour has an alternative to Corbyn, I'd like to make a comparison, maybe it will be New, Newer Labour with added Zest.
what does Scotland have to do to exit the UK formally?
Another referendum
Edit: Other possibilities are available, but extremely unlikely.
I found it interesting how large of an effect Brexit would have on world markets. It makes sense that the U.K. lost a trillion dollars and the pound devalued but our stock market in the USA dropped 600 points. It just goes to show how connected we are. Especially Europe, Asia, and the U.S.
wow, I've learned a lot from this thread! I follow this in the news, different news sites and blogs, but this was really informative.
@richardyot I'm in agreement with what you have said, as far as I am able to understand what you have said. Time will tell, if this was a good decision.
When my wife was in Europe in the 90's when she was in college, she mentioned to me that it was just the beginnings of the EU. I think she was in Spain in 93 or 94. And a few other countries. She mentioned that a good number of people back then she spoke with were concerned with the decisions on agriculture and industry. Something to the affect on if "your" country farms this particular crop, or makes this specific good, under the EU, that will no longer be allowed. Basically a bunch of politicians making decisions on what is best for the Union.
Anyway, it's not like my wife talked to hundreds of people, jsut the ones she did talk with voiced these concerns. Living over here in my U.S. bubble, I only know what I read/hear.
@High5denied for some examples of what is wrong with the Common Agricultural Policy, see this:
George Monbiot
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Wow 40% unemployment for young people and 50% taxes is high. We have high unemployment among youth and our wages for most people have been stagnant for the past 20 years. The upper 1% have doubled and tripled their in the same time frame. This can be attributed to not only greed but our flawed system of government, which gives too much power to states and not enough power to the overall population.
So how do we reinvigorate our democratic government's without destroying them.
Three trillion.
Through activism. I'm an volunteer admin for two progressive news sites. Educate people to what's really going on. Also educate yourself by reading and/or watching the news.
Also encourage polititions and media to actually go and talk to people in all walks of life, not just the ones they believe they can control for their own gain. Education is important, but empathy is required too.
Our world is changing. The world may seem smaller to those that have the ability and financial resources to enjoy it. However, the world seems much larger when you are disadvantaged by poverty, illness, disability or location. Trying to find someone to help or even listen is much harder in a world where actually being able to talk to a real person is not the norm. What you can attain is emblazoned on the media boards of the world, yet the majority will never have more than the scraps they are thrown.
And yet you voted to make your World smaller - leaving a union of countries, to be isolated on an island that has stuck two fingers up to the rest of the World.
Voting with leaders that actively seek to privatise a health service that you rely on.
Leaving yourself at the mercy of an old Etonian Tory network hell bent on cutting your benefits and destroying the services you rely on.
Voting with racists like Farage who are still destroying any hope of decent trade deals for UK.
Good move.
I’ll tell you all something. If we don’t get any world-class songs out of this, from old and young generations, then that’d be a ridiculous waste of angst and an unrecognised opportunity.
On a serious note, though, the UK should ask Apple if they want to buy us.
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Maybe someone will sample an old Neil Young song and change the words slightly.
Just read this from a Facebook friend:
"My first Brexit calamity. One of my clients just pulled the plug in one of my main construction projects. In the words of the Belgium Ex-Prime Minister Mr Verhofstadt today in the European Parliament "We (the British People) are all victims of a man who was prepared to do anything to become the next British Prime Minister" Certainly very sad many Brexit Leave Voters could not see the manufactured political stunt they fell for in the name of patriotism. More of this to come sadly, regrettably and unfortunately. "
And so it continues.
@carol you do know that Corbin was anti-EU for 30 years, and I would hazard a guess that he is only very lukewarm towards it now, mostly to pacify the PLP. Tony Benn, his mentor, was against the EU his whole life. He said that it was "better to have a bad parliament than a good king".
The point being that the tories will not be in power for ever, we can (and eventually will) vote them out. We can't vote out the Lisbon Treaty, except by leaving the EU.
Read this excellent analysis of the left's historical position on the EU.
I wasn't impressed with Corbyn's performance, but I didn't hear much from his Labour critics either.
The last thing we need at the moment is an opposition focusing on their own leadership battles - it creates a dangerous vacuum in which the opportunist, unscrupulous and downright dangerous can fill, as history has frighteningly shown us.
Bye, buy a British Pork Pie?
Labour suck at referendums. They let us down on proportional representation and again this time.