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Comments
Not all Asians bow, for example it's not done in China. But yeah, people don't shake hands as much here either as people in the west.
@gavinski, my point is that no “evidence” covers all the bases. However, mask wearing at worst is benign and, at best, lessens the risk. Deaths and infections, otoh, are very difficult to dispute, unless one resorts to Orwellian means. There were 200,000 deaths globally for H1N1. We are approaching 1,000,000 In seven months and India is just getting started.
For sure @LinearLineman, that I completely agree with
Please remember that Covid spread rapidly with a lot of death in Wuhan. That changed as the result of fairly extreme measures taken after an initially inadequate response. Things spread rapidly in South Korea who acted very rapidly. The spread stopped there quickly. It is widely believed now by epidemiologists that the near universal mask wearing that started early in South Korea was key a,omg with the intensive contact tracing and quarantining of people potentially infected. Initially, people thought that the fever detection in South Korea was important but that was BEFORE it was understood that people transmitted the virus before being symptomatic.
There is no general heightened Asian immunity. The people in Wuhan and South Korea were as easily infected as we are in the U.S.
natural asian immunity ignores the fact that millions of non-asians immigrants live in asia and they are hardly the only people catching Covid. It is absolutely a matter of social, and cultural norms, mixed in with the stability and quality of health care, government systems, and dedication between government and the people to follow guidelines.
America was just one of the worst cases because no one trusts their government, their health care is privatized and already encouraged people to avoid hospitals. Poor health and obesity being a previous problem and a government sending mixed messages about what the right response is. The death toll never needed to be this high...its a tragedy and there is no way to defend how bad this all got.
Absolutely true.
Absolutely true.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.economictimes.com/news/international/world-news/no-one-knows-what-thailand-is-doing-right-against-coronavirus-but-so-far-its-working/amp_articleshow/77011708.cms
In the interest of being balanced, it is fair to say that the case of Thailand was a bit of an outlier. They were really slow to crack down. Literally hundreds of thousands of Chinese people from Hubei province (where Wuhan is) came in to Thailand in January, and yet somehow things didn't get bad. In Bangkok people did get more careful. A lot of Thais were wearing masks, but very few tourists were. In beach areas and on islands, practically no-one, including Thais, wore masks through the whole of February and March (I was there). I kept waiting the whole time for things to get bad, but somehow they didn't. But there could be so many factors at play, as this article mentions.
I haven't told people not to wear masks, I have pointed out through the decades of scientific evidence that at most they will provide little benefit or even increase the risk of infection. Everyone was saying this, the WHO, Fauci etc until the WHO suddenly changed tact due to political lobbying and produced a cherry picked meta-study which has shown to be flawed. If there was any real provable correlation between masks being introduced and infection rates dropping it would have been shouted about from the rooftops.
The situation with Covid is still dynamic, with the scientific community still learning about the virus, masks have been beneficial in hospitals for many years and yes not every medical professional knows the best procedures when using PPE, so to expect the general populace to use best practices, is a little optimistic. Still the use of wearing masks should be just one part of preventing the spread of the virus.
More on Sikora from the man himself
Karol Sikora: 'The NHS is the last bastion of communism'
Pretty clear where the Anti-Lockdown 'carry on as normal' campaign is coming from
There are even questions on whether surgical masks are essential during operations. You will think this would be 100% fact by now but it is still being questioned. From the Royal Society of Medicine.
"Examination of the literature revealed much of the pub- lished work on the matter to be quite dated and often studies had poorly elucidated methodologies. As a result, we recommend caution in extrapolating their findings to contemporary surgical practice. However, overall there is a lack of substantial evidence to support claims that face- masks protect either patient or surgeon from infectious contamination. More rigorous contemporary research is needed to make a definitive comment on the effectiveness of surgical facemasks."
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ashok_Handa/publication/278791186_Unmasking_the_surgeons_the_evidence_base_behind_the_use_of_facemasks_in_surgery/links/5bf6e543299bf1a0202c2768/Unmasking-the-surgeons-the-evidence-base-behind-the-use-of-facemasks-in-surgery.pdf
Letter from two surgeons, one of them a former president of the Royal College of Surgeons and the other a former council member, to the Telegraph back in August.
Rational views from Sunetra Gupta. Interview from 24th September.
No surprises there. Yeah - this is the real conspiracy 😂 - the people with vested political and financial interests masquerading as objective medical professionals.
The new model, based on our “public transportation system” that’s in private hands, not unlike lots of thing’s in the NHS, like Covid testing and testing and tracing, world beating
@Mark B do face masks spread the virus then, would that be the forthcoming narrative to explain another wave, or will “they” be covering the truth that hospitals are really full with people suffering from illnesses caused by wearing masks and social distancing etc.
Or will we be hearing a revision that we aren’t quite at herd immunity level just yet, but we soon will be, but never mind about the casualties, they would have died of flu anyway.
@Mark B, IMO you have surrendered your rational mind. This is evidenced by your deepening and disturbing posts questioning the most basic scientific tenets.
Actually, I think the CDC has been reading your posts as they have removed their claim that the virus is airborne two days after publishing that truth on their website.
Perhaps your intentions are good Mark, but the consequences that your speculations engender and enliven are a threat (at least in the US) to the peaceful continuance of a flawed but progressive system.
The biggest problem with your stance, and others who share similar POVs, IMO, is that they have nothing constructive to offer in place of the abyss they wantonly open. That, I believe, is because it is so easy to tear something down and so damn difficult to build something of value.
Surely you can not deny that your often specious references all point in one direction: commonly held scientific values, proven by the scientific method over decades, are bad. But you never have something good to say. Frankly, unless you address this directly here and now, I believe it is because your thinking is not capable of formulating a way forward. It is just capable of tearing things down.
We are now seeing in the US that four hundred years of painful and painstaking progress can be torn down in less than four years by the overthrow of some commitment to truth. That the wholesale abandonment of the principles of democracy are mind candy to the fearful and enraged amongst us.
I can’t help but include you in the destroyers, Mark. All the more so because you cloak yourself in the garb of “serious” inquiry and offer no solutions. And, since you protect yourself with the anonymity of a forum avatar, it is impossible not to speculate about your deeper motivations and biases. If you truly believe surgeons should not wear masks because an infinitesimal minority holds that view, then how much more subject you must be to conspiracy theories that are espoused by large segments of populations with large, well formulated, propaganda delivery systems.
You have a right to speak your mind, Mark. But you have not offered me anything to believe that that mind is stable, reliable or empathetic. That is my right.
https://time.com/5541411/conspiracy-theories-domestic-terrorism/
COVID Hospital Admissions are certainly rising by the day in the UK.
58 on the 1st of September, 275 last Monday
See https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/healthcare
That's as reliable indicator as any as to the trajectory of the disease at the moment.
Must be pure coincidence that they're started rising after first pubs and restaraurants and then schools and Universities have re-opened.
But don't worry - "It's over"
@LinearLineman I believe MarkB is British actually, so not necessarily down the Trump/QAnon rabbit hole.
We have plenty of dissenters over here though, the most prominent being Peter Hitchens. Still, in the UK the dissent is mostly sane, compared to the crazies in the US anyway.
@richardyot, I certainly agree that American Exceptionalism is in full force here when it comes to our national mental illness.
However, there are no boundaries when it comes to long repressed fears and hatreds that have been emboldened and unleashed by a global movement towards xenophobia, resurgence of the “Other” as enemy, and a palpable leaning toward authoritarianism in the US and Europe.
I can only think of all the German citizens after WW2 who claimed they didn’t know what was going on, or were just following orders. If, somehow, the world will right itself, these cowards and bullies will make the same claims for sure. Giving credit to the German people, the backlash against the infamies of many of their fellows did create Institutional changes in education and policy which endured for decades,
Talented cartoonist this bloke, but interesting as much for the fact that his work from 50/60 years ago could have been drawn today...
https://kropotkindersurprise.tumblr.com/post/629908377556975616/september-21-2020-ron-cobb-best-known-for
@Max23, I was thinking about Poland and Hungary, but don’t you guys have AFID to deal with?
Wow, they really are very 2020.
@Max23, I suspected I had that wrong. I meant AfD.
Yep, but then no country seems to be without their own populist, nationalist, nuts. Not too different to circa 1930.
MarkB said: "I haven't told people not to wear masks...."
True that you have not LITERALLY said "don't wear masks". But you posted a video that makes fun of mask wearing and implies that it should simply be a matter of personal choice and that it should ok not to wear one. It is certainly your right to feel that way but that implies that it isn't important.
The vast majority of the world's epidemiologists and public health experts disagree with your belief that it isn't important and that choosing not to wear mask doesn't harm others.
You have the right to believe, but at least be honest about it and the implications. If you are wrong in your conclusion that it isn't helpful then you are encouraging people to take actions that will result in harm to others.
MarkB said: "I have pointed out through the decades of scientific evidence that at most they will provide little benefit or even increase the risk of infection."
The overwhelming consensus NOW based on much empirical analysis is that mask wearing results in large-scale diminution of the COVID spread. If you are unaware of this, it is not hard to find details. The West was very slow to accept that mask wearing is effective based on poor analysis of studies that whose application was overgeneralized.
I would also like to point out that the Swedish medical authority responsible for its relatively ineffective response to COVID has admitted (though tacitly) that it was ineffective and resulted in more fatalities than should have happened. In fact, he has gone so far as to put in place plans to have strong localized lockdowns since there has been an increase in infections recently. This itself is proof that the herd immunity Mark B postulated has not kicked in.
Where is this large-scale diminution of the COVID spread?
They admitted that they failed to protect the care homes. This was where most deaths came from and is as tragic as elsewhere. Still lower infection rate than Other countries in Europe and is not seeing the higher rate of resurgence that is happening in other countries that locked down hard.
‘We are thinking of fairly short restrictions, to break the spread of infection requires perhaps two to three weeks at most, Tegnell said ‘We are still developing the concept, so to say, but something like that. The restrictions could be extremely local. It could be about a single workplace or city district: wherever you see a spread and think that there are restrictions that might stop it.”