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Comments
Of course he is not willing to accept any level of innate immunity. The vaccine is the face saving way out of this mess.
Has Sweden achieved herd immunity?
But vaccines don't really work on respiratory illness do they? Well that's what you asserted previously anyway. So how's that going to work for him then?
The guy was a hero before this virus, and he remains a hero. Principles and truth age very well.
I won’t ignore you @Markb. You are not nasty in your posts. Being a sophist can be a valid approach; trying to make the weaker argument appear the stronger. What I find interesting is how ineffective you have been at convincing anyone here of your POV. Of course, there are many other fora that would embrace you as one of their own. I can only speculate what you are really about. It would be good if your viewpoints were not presented in a vacuum. I would love to see you post on the “Meet The Artist” thread. Exhaling your ideas about the truth in the safety of anonymity does not require any commitment to the truth or personal bravery.
Here is what I find truly sad about your position. It is cold and devoid of feeling. There is a dev here who survived 7 weeks on a ventilator only to wake up to his legs being fused at a 90 degree angle. He now is struggling to walk again. While we argue whether masks are effective or not, millions stand outside the life or death calculus and are stranded in the middle ground of chronic disability. No matter what you present as arguments it cannot be denied with 100% certainty that this terrific guy might have avoided a catastrophic Illness if everyone had been wearing a mask.
You can talk about the big picture you perceive if it pleases you, but I fear, until you are touched personally by the illness, that you are happy to live in a world of speculative imagination.
Maybe
https://www.thelocal.com/20200919/swedens-pandemic-may-be-finished-danish-researcher
AstraZeneca are aiming for 50% effectiveness with their vaccine. But this doesn’t really matter. Combined with the existing built level of immunity they will show it as a success.
I've taken to reading your posts in the voice of Morgan Freeman. It works. Thank you for your perspective and calm tone; it really drains the heat out of this thread, and that's a good thing.
I had not seen that - thank you.
You may also find this interesting: This is an exhaustively link-referenced compilation of all the ways in which the hydroxychloroquine narrative has been shaped, distorted & censored all over the world. HIGHLY recommended reading:
"How a false hydroxychloroquine narrative was created, and more
It is remarkable that a large series of events taking place over the past 5 months produced a unified message about hydroxychloroquine (HCQ), and produced similar policies about the drug in the US, Canada, Australia, NZ and western Europe. The message is that generic, inexpensive hydroxychloroquine (costing only $1.00 to produce a full course) is dangerous and should not be used to treat a potentially fatal disease, Covid-19, for which there are no (other) reliable treatments."
http://anthraxvaccine.blogspot.com/2020/06/how-false-hydroxychloroquine-narrative.html
Maybe not
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8762185/Swedens-second-wave-Cases-rise-Stockholm-prompting-concerns-supposed-herd-immunity.html
Rand and others assume that herd immunity has been reached around 20% therefore places like the Sweden, UK, Italy, Ireland should have near enough attained this level and therefore shouldn’t see another dramatic rise in infections.
Infections can be misleading. They are only testing for a small segment of the virus RNA sequence, not the whole virus. If your immune system has destroyed the virus the PCR test is so sensitive it is still picking up virus fragments for over 2 months, maybe longer. The better metric is hospital admissions and ICU care. As we go into Autumn and Winter these will naturally rise like normal but hopefully we will not get anything exceptional.
@Mark B do you follow this person's account on twitter?
https://twitter.com/MichaelPSenger?s=20
Most people tested (if they can get a test) usually have symptoms of Covid, but as you correctly state there should be no significant rise beyond the norm in ICU care, unless it’s a bad influenza season, which it couldn’t be, could it, because all the people in a weakened state would already have succumbed to Covid.
No, I don’t know about him
Ok. He looks interesting, thanks
@mahko, who is the YOU she mentions over and over? Who gave all that money to the pharmaceutical companies in the first place? Don’t you think they are all in it together?
Are Gates and Fauci criminal masterminds acting beyond the likes of comic book villains with the tacit sub rosa approval of Trump? I think they are all in it together and drinking champagne (well, Diet Coke for Trump) while the world burns... well, not really.... just the West Coast.
This person — while she does have an MD from the University of Mississippi — is hardly an expert; she's simply a crank who is pushing a counter-narrative useful to those who believe in conspiracy theories. On her CV under "publishing" she includes letters she has written to medical journals. This is really scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Seriously, this is maddening. If hydroxychloroquine worked — why would ANYBODY stand in its way?
You have to believe there's a nefarious cabal that is trying to enslave us. She's got the WHO conspiring to falsify trials and deliberately give subjects a dangerous dose to get the results they want.
I hate to be elitist, but seriously, you can't trust the ravings of outlier like this.
Read an interesting article today about where one of the main sources of confusion is coming from, quote of one of the more salient parts underneath, tis a bit lengthy but digestible.
https://bylinetimes.com/2020/09/23/scamademics-right-wing-lobbying-groups-reviving-herd-immunity-in-the-uk/
Distracting from the Consensus
The damage to public discourse has been done. Large segments of the population seem to be convinced that the scientific community is fundamentally divided on how to respond to the COVID-19 pandemic. But this is untrue.
As Dr Gurdasani remarked, this is “a fringe group of scientists, many without any expertise in public health or epidemiology who are advocating one view (‘herd immunity’), with most of the public health experts in the world advocating another”.
As has been done to great effect by fossil fuel lobbies in relation to climate change, the letter fiasco seems to demonstrate that the British public is under sustained assault from a secretive information war, conducted by vested interests with myriad connections to various points of leverage inside the Boris Johnson administration.
The same lobbies that helped bring Johnson into power, many of which are climate science deniers, are doing their best to dismantle the already frayed and flawed structures of scientific advice informing the Government’s strategy. These are the same lobbies which have urged Johnson to exploit the COVID-19 crisis as a mechanism to gut public health infrastructure while privatising key areas of the NHS, predictably paving the way for a second wave.
Well dang it, been successfully hiding from the forum for months. One idiotic premise posted here has pushed me over the edge. Someone said Sweden is basically a success story, or at least that Sweden’s covid death curve is no different from anywhere else, using this chart as evidence:
This is a joke, so utterly misguided. What we see here is a list of the absolute worst examples of handling of COVID-19. On one end we have Sweden believing in herd immunity and watching unacceptable amounts of people die. And then Italy, which was hit early and didn’t have time to react causing unacceptable amount of death. Then the UK doing whatever they are doing, very unsuccessfully and also facing unacceptable amount of death.
If you want facts comparing Sweden to countries that have handled Covid-19 well, it would be useful to take a look at several countries in Asia that have faced other pandemics recently and also been hit with Covid-19 . Note that the worst on this list (Japan in late April) is still at a scale of death that is 40x less than Sweden at it’s peak. FORTY. 0.2 death’s per million per day is the worst it got in Japan, and South Korea, Thailand, China, Taiwan have all handled it even better.
Here’s the chart for these countries in Asia. I had to leave off Sweden because the scale would have made all the other countries an invisible blip on the bottom of the chart, way down under 0.3/million.
I’m OK with everyone posting opinion and venting here. I think its good for all of us. but this particular mis-treatment of the data was so blatantly misinformed I could not ignore it.
Cheers, stay safe all. Live your life, breathe the open air, feel the sunshine, and when you are near other people just wear the mother effin’ mask.
Maybe you should look into possible reasons of what is causing this massive disparity in Asia. Here’s a start.
https://www.dw.com/en/why-does-coronavirus-kill-fewer-people-in-east-asia/a-53781108
Tatsuhiko Kodama, a member of the Research Center for Advanced Science and Technology (RCAST) at the University of Tokyo, has based some of his research on findings from La Jolla Institute for Immunology in California. According to these, many people in East Asia seem to have antibodies that protect them from the novel coronavirus. Kodama attributed this to the many previous flu viruses and coronaviruses that originated in southern China and caused people in the region to catch colds and related illnesses.
"They have white blood cells that can fight off related viruses such as SARS-CoV-2," Kodama says, adding that this does not make them fully immune but enables their bodies to cope with a certain amount of a similar type of virus. The Nobel laureate and immunologist Tasuku Honjo also argues that there is a great difference between Asians and others when it comes to the genes that control the immune system's response to viruses.
Once again, someone demonstrates that Sweden is not a success story (I mean what the eff NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES have done dramatically than Sweden) and the defense is bringing up random stuff either said by outliers -- or things said by non-outliers taken out of context.
Probably worth mentioning that what underlies the right-wing and "libertarian" opposition to countries is an ethos that says: wealth is more important than people. The notion that economies can't be slowed down or paused without catastrophic impact is only true when the people that control the wealth are considered to have no obligation to their fellow human beings.
How can it be possible that I have not previously heard or used this importantly topical word...?
“ According to people familiar with her thinking, Birx views Dr. Scott Atlas, a recent addition to the task force, as an unhealthy influence on..Trump's thinking when it comes to the virus. ‘The President has found somebody who matches what he wants to believe.’ ”
Trump believes, I’d say WANTS, an attempt at The mythical improbable “herd immunity” for COVID19. It’s what he’s wanted all along. Why?
My theory is a half dead demoralized nation is easier to sell for parts than a functioning one. If there is any doubt as to Trumps intentions let this be the warning you hear and heed.
AT A PRESS CONFERENCE TODAY
Trump: Get rid of the ballots and you'll have a very peaceful -- there won't be a transferral of power, there'll be a continuation.
(This is an actual quote)
TRUMP WON'T COMMIT TO PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER
Also, and quite directly related, TRUMP CAN NEVER BE WRONG and HE FORCES EVERYONE AROUND HIM TO BEND TO HIS WILL/REALITY
One example of many: Hurricane Dorian
It Was Trump Who Edited Hurricane Dorian Map With Sharpie, Says Report
https://www.thedailybeast.com/hurricane-dorian-it-was-trump-that-edited-map-with-sharpie-says-report
Why bring this up? Trump manufactures his reality to suit HIS GOALS regardless of objective reality. He is willing to flagrantly lie about anything any everything. To this end, the truth is his enemy.
He cannot be wrong. He will move heaven and earth to corrupt everything around him so he is right. He has defaced maps, he has issued bogus proclamations, he has removed offenders to his narrative (lies), he has suppressed evidence of his continued deliberate mistakes.
In the newest sycophantic radiological (not a virologist or epidemiologist) employee he has found unison in what he’s sought since APRIL “just let the virus wash over the country”
He will kill us all.
@Mark B, it’s just as likely Asians have lower infection rates because they bow instead of shaking hands. When you post your opinions and back them up with “evidence” it is just as likely you are missing the truth as much, or more, than those you consider to be so off the mark.
As I said, you are engaging in sophistry while millions die and suffer. Wearing a mask hurts no one, yet you are deeply invested that people shouldn’t use them. Why is that? If it is simply an intellectual exercise, shame on you. If it is for political purposes you are promoting an agenda of paranoia and conspiracy.
I would like to add that other possible explanations are traditional east asian diets are typically low in cholesterol, two highest performing countries when it comes to life expectancy are both east asian, hong kong and japan respectively, this is mainly attributed to diet. Add on top of that wide mask use during outbreaks and pandemics, without the fear of having your freedom and liber-tay compromised.
Then there is this.........included brief quotes.
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-09-statins-covid-severity-cholesterol-virus.html
Statins reduce COVID-19 severity, likely by removing cholesterol that virus uses to infect
UC San Diego Health researchers recently reported that statins—widely used cholesterol-lowering medications—are associated with reduced risk of developing severe COVID-19 disease, as well as faster recovery times. A second research team at UC San Diego School of Medicine has uncovered evidence that helps explains why: In short, removing cholesterol from cell membranes prevents the coronavirus from getting in.
The researchers found that statin use prior to hospital admission for COVID-19 was associated with a more than 50 percent reduction in risk of developing severe COVID-19, compared to those with COVID-19 but not taking statins. Patients with COVID-19 who were taking statins prior to hospitalization also recovered faster than those not taking the cholesterol-lowering medication.
"We found that statins are not only safe but potentially protective against a severe COVID-19 infection," said Daniels. "Statins specifically may inhibit SARS-CoV-2 infection through its known anti-inflammatory effects and binding capabilities as that could potentially stop progression of the virus."
This initial study was relatively small and focused on a single health system. Moving forward, Daniels is partnering with the American Heart Association to analyze thousands of patients all over the country to corroborate the data she's developed locally.
"I tell my patients who are on statins, ACE inhibitors or other ARBs to keep taking them," she said. "Fears of COVID-19 should not be a reason to stop, if anything our research findings should be incentive to continue with their medication."
We are stocking-up on ammunition at a level never before seen in the history of our family.
Thanks to Traitor Trump, it has now become painfully obvious to us that Civil War II is just weeks away...
Fortunately, we have a shitload of guns that we purchased to hunt deer, pheasants and ducks, but they will perform equally as well to terminate any Trumpofiles who dare enter our neighborhood.
If you somehow believe Trump is joking about his no-election election, know this:
Trump Never Jokes.
God help us all.
One last thing regarding sweden, from the telegraph no less, although it’s hidden behind a paywall.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/09/23/sweden-shifts-no-lockdown-strategy/
Sweden shifts on no-lockdown strategy
Dr Anders Tegnell has now said that Sweden may implement localised lockdowns, but only for a maximum of two or three weeks
Sweden's state epidemiologist has said that he is now willing to recommend lockdown measures such as school closures, and strict limits to the size of gatherings - so long as they are only imposed locally and for three weeks at a time.
Transmission ends, damn you paywalls, tis the same on apple news app too, need a subscription.