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This is extremely helpful to me. The only way I can ever comprehend someone is to
see the world from their view. Trump supporters like the perceived benefits of his
administration. They really love the way he handles the press and democratic political
leaders.
The democratic alternative CANNOT ignore the fundamental personal issues that drive
voting behaviors:
Bill Clinton was a master on this fundamentals and in practical terms he was a fiscally conservative administrator. Obama given the circumstances of his inherited economy and the tactics of congress to limit presidential powers was also a very pragmatic leader. ObamaCare was a conservatives answer to universal healthcare extending the power of insurance companies to administer the services.
Biden needs to communicate on values that hit the independents. It should be a slam dunk but he's perfectly capable of making people feel uneasy. It's his gift. But I do recall his VP Debate with Sarah Palin and he really helped turn the tables on her popularity as an outsider worth considering.
Personally, I think Trump's delivery on these three items is a train wreck:
The results of any president tend to show up as they are hitting the 8 year mark. Trump's actuals will be written of as a product of the pandemic but he also owns the pandemic for me because he was advised and ignored all the expert advice on science, national security and disaster preparedness in the last 4 years. The results of his "you're fired" actions speak to the results we are living with now and not at the typical second term landmark.
That's correct. I'm not a fan of mindless partisanship.
On this virus and science in general. See global warming for example. I think some of this comes from the fact that a lot of right wing money comes from oil/chemicals (anti-pollution measures/global-warming measures), and going further back anti-tobacco money (most of today's older global warming denialists used to take tobacco money to deny that it caused cancer).
Latterly it's partly a tribal thing on science. Scientists are seen as liberal (which is amusing, as I've known some pretty right wing scientists), and so part of the other tribe and so biased. Sociologically it's kind of fascinating, though I'd rather be reading about it from afar like I'm currently reading about late Rome.
The virus hits all their touch points. It's science, it makes Trump look bad and it's giving poor people free money.
Yeah, we disagree on most things probably, but this is fair. This has actually happened a couple of times. And many of the complaints from Democrats about him seem to be about him not having the right presidential gravitas. It's got really weird now that GWB has been rehabilitated by Democrats, because if I had to choose between him and Trump I'd choose Trump.
I mean yes and no. As a rhetorical point - sure I guess. As an actual piece of analysis it doesn't really work. Elections would look totally different if it was a simple majoritorian system, and so campaigns are built around winning states rather than votes. I'd also have more respect for Democrats if their response to this was to seriously campaign for electoral form in the USA. But 4 years later and silence on that score.
Those are two separate things. The kind of partisanship myself and Richard are talking about is where ordinary people decide what to believe on a topic based upon what their party/team/group's position is.
The other kind of partisanship is what pretty much every other political system in the world calls modern political parties. It's quaint that Democrats want to still do politics like it's the nineteenth century, but they're going to get killed until they (at a minimum) join the C20th.
Plenty of Democrats are in favour of limiting voting rights/access when it suits them. Plenty of Democratic states make it difficult for ordinary people to vote in primaries. I'm opposed to the Republican position on this, but I don't really see the Democrats as an ally. More an ally who will probably stab me in the back when it's convenient.
On stuff like Global Warming the difference between Republicans and Democrats is pretty small. We did a little sooner with the Republicans in charge. On healthcare the difference is a little larger, but it still results in a broken medical system, that costs too much and lets a chunk of the population die. If you're the lesser evil - you're still evil.
Lock her up and build your walls
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@cian: the difference between the GOP and the Democrats on global warming is huge. I don't know how you can say that it is pretty small. We have withdrawn from agreements aimed at reducing CO2 emissions. The current GOP has allied itself quite strongly with climate change deniers.
On healthcare, the differences aren't small, either. The GOP has made it clear that they don't want to solve the problem of uninsured people and bankruptcy caused by soaring medical costs. They are trying to dismantle the ACA without any sort of adequate replacement proposed. They are hoping to remove protections for people with pre-existing conditions.
I am sorry. There is much to complain about with the Democrats, but the meme that the D's and R's are virtually the same is not credible in my opinion.
The GOP has become increasingly hostile to science as they have become ever more reliant on evangelical Christians -- who are a much misunderstood group that is far less mainstream than most people seem to realize.
On practical solutions to global warming it actually isn't. The reason I know this is because I follow the science. Neither party has mainstream solutions (the Green New Deal, which I strongly support, is resisted by the leadership) that will solve the problem. The difference between them is that we end up with a disaster slightly quicker with the Republicans. But it's a done deal with either party. Civilization as we know it ends.
The Paris Accords were insufficient incidentally. Leaving them wasn't great, but given the US wasn't going to meet it's targets, it was largely symbolic. The US was a bit better under Obama, the stuff Biden has said suggests he'll be somewhere in between.
Biden's proposals on healthcare do not solve the problem of uninsured people. How do I know this, because his campaign says so. He does not address the problem of uninsured people. Or unpayable copays. Or out of network billing. No mention is made of the ludicrous exchanges (ludicrous because they are so byzantine that they produce lots of unexpected pricing results for insurance). I don't think Biden has said anything about medical bankruptcy, which given he's the man who literally made it worst (he pushed the banking industry's awful bankruptcy reform bill). The ACA completely failed to control costs, and medical insurance inflation is running at around 15% a year. US healthcare is broken - anyone committed to the current system of private insurance, and unregulated costs, is not trying to fix it.
I didn't say they were. I said on certain important issues issues the differences between them, in comparison to the scale of the problem, is pretty tiny. Both parties are in deed, if maybe not word, committed to global warming and healthcare getting worse and worse.
Dude I live in the bible-belt. A good friend went to Bob Jones - so I know something of that world. GOP hostility to science has more to do with the Heartland Institute and the Koch brothers. Cheney and Rex Tillerson are both way more powerful than any evangelical has ever been. Trump is the first president that's given Evanglicals much more than scraps, which is why they love him.
@cian: There is a lot of false equivalency in your take in my opinion. I feel that you treat all imperfections as equally imperfect. For example, while I wish that Biden support some form of universal healthcare coverage (and there are many different ways to accomplish that). It is not correct that Biden's plan (essentially tweaks on the ACA) are equivalent to the Republican position -- which as far as anyone can tell is a retreat to the pre-ACA healthcare system.
As imperfect as the ACA is, it reduced the number of uninsured significantly AND it reduce the combination of radically escalating premiums accompanied with coverage reductions.
The GOP response is to get rid of the ACA and hasn't proposed any sort of plan that reduces the number of uninsured -- nor does it do anything to reduce the likelihood of people going bankrupt due to a health crisis.
I didn't say that - I said that neither party is commited to a solution that will FIX the healthcare system. Both parties are actively fighting anybody who is trying to fix the current situation. It may be that the Republican party are the Waffen SS, while the Democratic party are the Italian army - but at the end of the day they're both the enemy if you want a viable solution.
Also on expanding coverage. My friend has expensive coverage that she has to buy (because ACA), that she can't really afford to use. Is she covered - technically I guess. But any stay in hospital would bankrupt her, while she can't afford treatments because her deductible is to high.
It did the former mostly by throwing a lot of money at medicaid and subisidies (A LOT), which is fine but not really sustainable. It has not achieved the latter. Insurance companies have simply found new loopholes (out of network, raising co-pays/deductables, etc), while insurance rates were actually rising faster after ACA. Also because Democrats rely upon pharmaceutical companies for funds, there's been very little practical interest in fixing price gouging on things like Insulin.
You could probably make an argument that the biggest successes of the Obama administration were saving banks (by foaming the runway with homeowners) and saving health insurance companies.
So both parties have no solution to medical bankruptcy then. Incidentally Biden is one of the people that made that crisis worse.
I might have misunderstood you or you might have misunderstood me please let me know but my statements have nothing to do with "the world is at your fingertips and turns around you"
and has everything to do with personal responsibility, that's what the people get the government we deserve means to me, it means the power is with us the people and it's our responsibility to create the society and government that we want, I don't know how you could extrapolate anything else from that comment, as a matter of fact your statement " get out and attempt something that might change it" sounds like you are saying the same thing, if I'm understanding you correctly?
gatorade is good, we just have to remember it doesn't make plants grow
Regarding Trump it's all make believe...
there are no policies of good will to speak of.
claiming democrats just hate him for the sake of hating him and that his policies are good is a red herring and a lie so huge that it would fit perfectly in the middle of anyone of his press conferences.
they say they're watching what he does and not what he says, well here is the truth... everything he says is a lie, and all he does is enter into political negotiations in bad faith.. that is nothing to be proud of as a leader or as a supporter of said leader.
trump ordering Jeff sessions to separate thousands of children from their parents is bad enough but to not even keep track of the people you're separating and to literally be creating thousands of orphans who don't know where their parents are and whom's parents don't even know where they are and on top of all of that refusing to do the work needed to reunite these people is not just bad policy it's sick, especially if your favorite past time is feigning pro-life outrage......
that is not about gravitas, that is not about just hating trump, that Is about a sick policy that _______ people claim is and example of doing a good job.................BS
here are some other reasons that your Fuehrer is extremely disliked that have nothing to do with 'democrats hating Trump for no reason and just want to take him out bs"
shredding the constitution and trying to band people from the country based on his bigotry aka based on other peoples religions.... any strict constitutionalist knows how obscene that was... Bad policy!
threatening to take peoples guns away without due process (you might think light of it, but I don't)
ordering Jeff sessions to dismantle as much civil rights protection he possibly can... bad policy!
the dismantling of the Scientific community serving in government and I'm not just talking about getting rid of the committee that addresses pandemics just because Obama put them together, I'm talking about the Paris agreement and other vital environmental work being dismantled to the point that this freaking 8th grade iQ of a president actually takes scientist working for our country and sends them to places far away from their families to work on meaningless assignments just to stop them from working on the environment and if they refuse to go they get fired..... Bad Policy
this president has made enemies of every single foreign ally we have except Japan...... Bad Policy
this president has made friendships with every single enemy of America that we have, every single noted tyrant from Putin, to Kim, to the crown journalist murdering prince of Saudi Arabia, to the dictators of South America and the Philippines .... Bad Policy!
you think the lies this president told about North Korean nuclear agreements is good foreign policy?........stop lying!!! Kim thinks you and your president are a joke and is still shooting off missiles, but you call it good policy?
You want to vilify George bush for starting a war with Iraq but you voted for a fool who lies almost constantly and whom has only told a few truths one of which is that he wants to take the oil of sovereign nations in the middle east, and on top of that this fool has done everything he can to start a war with Iran...... I'm sorry but that is not how credibility works, that's just baaaaad Policy!!!
you can call it partisan hacking if you want but I see through your cellophane logic.
I could go on all day listing the atrocious policies that have come out of this administration but you won't see any trump supporters address them, instead they'll continue to say that people are just trying to take down this president for no reason..... as you can see they are obviously lying.
the last thing people hate this president for is for 'No Reason'
and I didn't even bring up what he's been impeached for or this Covfefe 19 virus fiasco that he lies about every single day to your face.
lol sorry, but that's not how good policy works.
no no... it wasn’t aimed personally at you.. that phrase “ you get the government you deserve “ i have heard again and again from quite a few sources/people.. and i am strongly allergic to it.. it implies that we are in systems where the political choices are something other than a choice between the lesser of two evils (often) .. i think we do agree that attempting some change is fundamental .. but maybe ( i could be wrong ) you have more faith in what I would call ‘the thin veneer of democracy’ .. the power is only with the people if they come together in some kind of consensus outside of the imposed ‘system of choice’ and force it to adapt to said ‘people’
it is most probable that you are talking the same talk and walking the same walk as myself and many others .. it is just that particular phrase seems a bad one to express what you maybe want to express.. it doesn’t acknowledge the manipulation that goes on behind the scenes.. and shifts a huge amount of blame onto a population that is powerless AS INDIVIDUALS but wouldn’t be if they acted ‘en mass‘ ( as intelligently as possible ) rather than pick from a very tiny inflexible multi choice questionnaire and imagine they have exercised some kind of power..
whatever blather i may bleat doesn’t matter, but I think what i am talking about will pretty much have to happen in various subtle forms as this current global ‘head flip’ develops.
i think your nod to the movie ‘Idiocracy’ shows you know how it is.. and have a sense of humour .. so I hope you don’t take any allergic reaction of mine to a simple phrase as a personal affront.. it’s not meant that way.. I just am of the personal opinion that it is not such a useful phrase.
i will repeat what I took from Mr Harrison’s ( he is an absolute genius writer ) interview.. and that is that we are sold the idea of ‘personal agency’ very very often where it does not exist.. it is up to us to recover the idea for ourselves wherever and whenever it can be found and act upon it accordingly..
Yeeps! that was a lot of words... i do solemnly swear i will not inflict that amount of verbiage upon any of you ever again... so help me gob!
@robertreynolds, let us put our cudgels down for a moment. You made a distinction between Republicanism (these days, I guess) and Conservatism. You said you are a Conservative. Can you explain and describe what that means to you? And how it allies or differs with the current Republican platform?
don't even worry about it Rocky, you weren't being personal so I didn't take it that way and you were being specific, I agree with much of what you've said actually but the crux of the issue is that no matter how we look at it change doesn't come from the oppressor, it doesn't come from the perpetrators of injustice or inequality so it's 'the peoples' responsibility, if 'the people' actually care is a whole other question, personally I think we are too busy to really care, to busy blaming the media and anything else we can set our eyeballs on.. President Trump and his supporters are like that scorpion on the back of the turtle crossing the river.... they don't care if they don't have healthcare as long as they can make it so you don't, they don't care if Trump starts a war in the Middle East, as long as 22% of the military looks like you they'll gladly chalk up the rest to collateral damage, they don't care how many lies he tells to the American people because they don't believe that half of the American people are 'real Americans' anyway ....
I hope people can remain civil in the face of someone that believes differently from them.
I believe they can be the most interesting people to help you learn something. As a result I hate to see political conflict she down but it's key not to let it become vicious.
Anyone have a good rant about the virus epidemic? Get it out quick in case the thread melts down.
“Finding out that this virus is now transmitting before people see signs … we didn’t know that until the last 24 hours,” Georgia Governor Brian Kemp said Wednesday (yesterday) in justifying his delay in ordering a lockdown.
'Georgia’s governor and his top health official both admit they were clueless that the coronavirus could be spread by people not showing symptoms — despite it being headline news for months.'
https://nypost.com/2020/04/02/georgia-governor-brian-kemp-didnt-know-coronavirus-could-be-spread-without-symptoms/
He should be recalled just for this. His #1 priority is the safety of his constituents and he can’t even be bothered to read up on one of the largest health crises in a generation? We knew back in early February this thing was spreading asymptomatically. It’s now April.
he's just following the leader.
embarrassing.
Do you also feel this way about Trump, also? He was telling people that coronavirus was no worse than a cold or the flu in February and told people not to worry -- even though he had been advised since at least mid-January that this was very serious?
Even if Trump had done fine up until the pandemic (I personally don't think he was doing fine, but that is another issue), I don't see how anyone can give Trump anything but a major fail. He had an opportunity to get us out in front of this -- and treated calls to take this more seriously and take action as making a fuss about nothing.
My rant on everything in this thread:
Evanglicals, the so-called Bible-Belt....
This part of USA must be a living nightmare.
These Evanglicals can't even interpret the bible correctly and have zero gnosis.
I guess that's the only ”good news” about their gospels...
Politics and spirituality are the big opposites and there is nothing spiritual about established religions that promote politics in any shape or form...
The problem is groups of people who have nationalistic, racial, religious, cultural, ideological ideas and so on and have to push some sort of illusional/delusional agenda that fits the group and force it on others hence creating conflict. These are based on greed for the group and aversion to anyone outside the group.
Like I wrote in another thread or maybe this one - Ban all politics and we will have no borders and true globalism (not the political one).
People still prefer false ideologies for the lower mind and senses from some sort of authority with zero basis in reality and that can't be questioned instead of letting nature and the laws in the universe decide.
Need I remind you that we in reality know nothing? Maybe 000000000,1 percent is understood of the universe.
There's a law like cause and effect. Unethical things that deliberately create suffering in others come from sick minds and will come back when the time is ripe. So if not in this life in another one to come.
No escaping this.
Politicians can't actually do anything since they are all deluded and very rigid mentally since they are stuck to a certain ideological format instead of acting out of common sense and with wisdom for the well-being of all around the world.
And why can't certain individuals take individual responsbility instead of belonging to a certain group with short-sighted plans?
The very same people that promote the ”cult of personality” can't do anything as individuals:
”This is our guy, he'll take care of it, yay!”
A personality is just a bunch of aggregates of conflicting wills and desires and is FINITE..
This really is the dark age of materialism and egotism...
I knew this would come up. The answer is, No. Mistakes happen, especially with a unique situation such as this one. Flat out negligence is another thing.
I give Trump Tons of credit for having closed air travel from China on January 31st, buying us critical weeks of time. What did Democrats do? Well, Joe Biden criticized him for being xenophobic, stating, “This is no time for Donald Trump’s record of hysteria and xenophobia – hysterical xenophobia – and fearmongering to lead the way instead of science.” That statement alone makes him unelectable in my opinion.
You have not done your home work. The record is clear... Trump was briefed on the taking of a pandemic before taking office in the transition brief. Everything he did from that point on is on him and not an unanticipated disaster. It was his version of governing by his instincts. There's a name for this behavior in the professions: malpractice. It can cause yo to loose you license or be indicted. As we know... there's memo saying laws do not apply for this job. A lovely little memo written by a Nixon era lawyer. Go figure.
"Stay out of jail free."
There wer people in the government to manage these events and they were all terminated.
We are playing for the lack of planning and preparation NOW.
SAR, Ebola and other verses we're met with competent management teams.
This was like just an example of a leader that just experts. He has a gift. He used his gut.
Now that's a vent... good to let it out. I will never forget or forgive.
After 9/11, what did President George W Bush do? He went to a Muslim mosque and denounced the harassment of Arabs and Muslims in the US. He tried to calm Americans down, though that didn't stop all of the attacks on Arabs and Muslims. 3100 Americans died on 9/11, but there was this type of 'collateral damage' too.
Like I said, mistakes are going to be made. Would we have been better off with Biden in office, pandering to the left and China with identity politics? I think you know the answer to that question.
Jesus, France has 1355 deaths so far today. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
see, that's not even an answer and that's the best they got... nothing.
based on what specific logic?
Joe Biden shouldn't be president cause he's a doofus but that is a far cry from President Trump, every single critic I've heard of him to date is 100% valid with the exception of people calling him orange this and orange that I hate that crap, what part of credibility is critiquing what kind of tan the man has... ridiculous.
If you’re so worried about being perceived as xenophobic, that you won’t take steps to protect Americans, you don’t deserve to be president.
then surely you don't deserve to be president if you actually are xenophobic... xenophobia protects Americans even less than being worried about the perception....
that's how credibility works
Well, the Don sure is calm and collective now, during his press conferences. They say he finally 'gets it' and is scared.
...Everyone be quiet, Jared Kushner is addressing the American people.