Audiokit released their 909 app

Nuria

For me the update is worse than the first one. The kick and the snare do not hit at the same time, which makes no sense.

0tolerance4silence

Yeah, it seems the constant delay improved, but timing (jitter) gotten worse.

tk32

@Svetlovska said:
If I get the £116 mill up for grabs tonight, everyone on this forum gets an App Store voucher

Would you mind posting your numbers here so we'll know if you win

Svetlovska

I lament the death of trust in the world today...

tk32

@Svetlovska said:
I lament the death of trust in the world today...

I was only joking

Philandering_Bastard

@Jamie_Mallender said:

@ashh said:

@Jamie_Mallender said:

@CapnWillie said:

@rezidue said:
Incoming:

https://twitter.com/audiokitpro/status/1326279510216609792

I miss the days when that type of news was broke and discussed here first. Back when Devs were excited to announce and discuss their new apps, updates, challenges and excitement with the community.

I don’t blame them (Devs) at all for avoiding this place these days.

I’m glad you said this. Since I first became really interested in iOS Music about 5 years ago, one of the things I’ve enjoyed most about the community is just how helpful and positive everyone is. Right across the Facebook groups, Reddit, Instagram, Twitter, even YouTube there are so many upbeat people - enthused and highly motivated by IOS music making. But it’s different here. A forum is worth nothing if the people who contribute aren’t forthright and honest, but it’s possible to express yourself, be critical, negative even - without being unpleasant. Some people write as though they don’t know the developer is going to read the comment, or maybe they suspect the developer will - and offending them is the desired result. I don’t know the answer to that, but I do know that developers do read the comments and are feeling less and less inclined to come here. There’s no way that’s good for the community. Same with crucifying the beta testers for the AR-909 (I’m one of them,) they are people who contribute here too, people who give an awful lot to this community - people who spend a lot of time helping, sharing and progressing what we do. If you’ve noticed that those kinds of people are here less and less, this is why.

Which devs are you speaking for?

My take on the "don't be horrid to the devs" thing is that I don't believe that anything I say has any impact on anyone. IF it does then I think that's something they need to deal with.

For example, I was recently charged with being horrid to Hainbach. Hainbach horrid. All I thought about that was that I was pretty sure he wouldn't give a flying fig about my opinion and they certainly wouldn't change a single iota of anything he decided to do.

People say shit.

It would not be appropriate for me to name developers who have been put off visiting this forum by attitudes such as yours. That would be dragging them into a conversation they may not wish to take part in and I think that would be out of order. But I can assure you, that the list of developers and youtubers who once thrived in this forum and now avoid it is long. It’s not just a couple of super fragile people I’m talking about either. Fortunately for me, I’m far more broad shouldered than most people. If there’s one thing the music business will do to you it’s toughen you up. You put yourself out there to entertain people and everyone has an opinion - everyone is a judge - and nowadays, with the internet - you get to read every single criticism. The more successful you are, the more people want to have a pop. That’s gonna make you get tough or get out. But developers don’t necessarily have that experience or the thick skin to deal with an attitude like yours. Like, you’re gonna say what you want and if anyone has a problem with it then it’s them that has a problem. Not correct. You are an adult and you are responsible for every word that you say/type. For me, if I even suspect that I might have possibly hurt or offended someone online I’m going well out of my way to apologise or explain my point - because I don’t know that person personally. Some people are very fragile, we don’t know.

Always be honest but kind. It’s not hard.

Well put.

Zerozerozero

Also..it doesn’t always save decay/tuning settings. Pretty frustrating if you’ve tuned/tweaked a few kits. I know it’s only £3 but it’s not really usable at the moment. Hopefully they can crack it (and look at the DSP) 🤞

tk32

.

(accidentally posted in the wrong thread. sorry)

tk32

@Zerozerozero said:
Also..it doesn’t always save decay/tuning settings.

Yes, I can confirm that Decay is definitely not being saved. At least that's the experience I had with my short decay crash cymbal preset.

gusgranite

Hi @Jamie_Mallender - I’m sorry but I think you are out of line for calling us out re the latency as “pissy panting” (although the phrase did make me laugh).

This is a 909! The ONE thing you want it to do is play on time. Look at its history. This isn’t emulating a drunk pub rock drummer. On the initial release, as soon as you synced it with other programmed beats/sounds - well it sounded crap. Unusable for its most common usage actually. It doesn’t matter if it’s $3 or $30. You need electronic drum machines to keep time.

Now if you didn’t know about the problem when you made your video then so be it. If the other video makers did know about it then it would have made sense to give their viewers the heads up or delay the video until it was fixed.

Anyway it looks like they are on it which is great. It will be great once they fix it. Until then I like @Svetlovska suggestion of washing it out with FX for sound design.

oceansinspace

Ahh, I feel you a lil. Don't stress it, I feel like we should be more free to babble.
909 sounds ace but the first thing in priority is locked timing. Its kinda strange so lets use 'funk box' as an example: midi and link and 909s and old perfect timing. What did they do right? I mean this in a nice way like we are reinventing the wheel or something because the iOS drums I use are all dead solid, but alas not audio kit made>? Maybe its CPU hungry? I mean We need our acid lines to be locked and loaded. Looks and sounds good but yea metronomic perfection is needed. Cheers.

espiegel123

@gusgranite said:
Hi @Jamie_Mallender - I’m sorry but I think you are out of line for calling us out re the latency as “pissy panting” (although the phrase did make me laugh).

This is a 909! The ONE thing you want it to do is play on time. Look at its history. This isn’t emulating a drunk pub rock drummer. On the initial release, as soon as you synced it with other programmed beats/sounds - well it sounded crap. Unusable for its most common usage actually. It doesn’t matter if it’s $3 or $30. You need electronic drum machines to keep time.

Now if you didn’t know about the problem when you made your video then so be it. If the other video makers did know about it then it would have made sense to give their viewers the heads up or delay the video until it was fixed.

Anyway it looks like they are on it which is great. It will be great once they fix it. Until then I like @Svetlovska suggestion of washing it out with FX for sound design.

I didn't read what Jamie wrote as calling people out for commenting on the latency problems.

I think his point is that HOW people express themselves about it makes a difference.

It is a simple fact that quite a few devs have stopped participating here because a handful of folks express themselves in ways that are dispiriting to read. It seems like in any discussion there are some people who feel that being insulting/dismissive makes their comments "edgy"/"cool" or "honest".

A number of people -- when this is called out -- respond "they need to have thicker skins" -- which is a cop out. If we want a community -- just like in the real world -- we can spend a moment to think about how to get our points across without being insulting.

It really is possible with a few moments of thought to report about a bug and one's frustration without being mean/dismissive. I really don't understand -- given the number of times that this comes up -- that people don't recognize that they should give some thought to how they express themselves. This isn't shutting down criticism -- it is a suggestion that one not be a jerk when expressing such. It is possible.

One can be honest -- and kind at the same time.

For instance, one can say: "this app's timing is all over the place. It has latency I don't experience with other apps. It is frustrating"

But some folks would rather they say: "What the hell is this crap! It is an unusable waste of time." This latter conveys less about the app than the person writing it.

And really, there are a lot of devs that just don't bother any more. They get paid peanuts and a handful of people here make it an unpleasant place for them to hang out.

gusgranite

@espiegel123 That’s not what happened here.

espiegel123

@gusgranite said:
@espiegel123 That’s not what happened here.

Having read the thread -- I respectfully disagree. While most of the comments have been reasonable in expressing the issues -- not all have in my opinion.

gusgranite

@espiegel123 said:

@gusgranite said:
@espiegel123 That’s not what happened here.

Having read the thread -- I respectfully disagree. While most of the comments have been reasonable in expressing the issues -- not all have in my opinion.

You’re responding to the wrong guy. I believe I have good communications with developers. I constantly champion their work. To my memory I have never been called out for disrespectful communication. I’ve been here a while.

tk32

Here's the TL;DR for this whole thread...

• Audiokit got egg on their face for releasing a drum plugin that can't keep time.
• Youtubers got egg on their face for not noticing the timing issue, or not mentioning it AT ALL.
• The forum noticed the issue immediately after launch, and a few people may have got pissy panty (but definitely not brother @gusgranite )
• Audiokit have been doing their damndest to 'Make AR-909 Great Again' since launch - but the Swift codebase is not being kind to them
• There has been a whole meta-debate about whether it is - or isn't - ok to voice criticism of this situation, or else if everyone should shut-up and accept timing faults in a plugin simply because it's Audiokit, or because it's cheap.
• And simmering under the surface are lots of strong opinions (one way or the other) about Audiokit's decision to pursue these Limited Edition apps in the first place (vs focusing on fixes for Synth One, FM2, D-1)

espiegel123

@gusgranite said:

@espiegel123 said:

@gusgranite said:
@espiegel123 That’s not what happened here.

Having read the thread -- I respectfully disagree. While most of the comments have been reasonable in expressing the issues -- not all have in my opinion.

You’re responding to the wrong guy. I believe I have good communications with developers. I constantly champion their work. To my memory I have never been called out for disrespectful communication. I’ve been here a while.

I did not say that you were disrespectful.

I was replying to your message to Jamie. His message was summed up as "Always be honest but kind. It’s not hard." You seemed to be jumping on him for asking people to think twice about how they express themselves.

Elvisthenrodent

In fact this whole timing issue discussion is a complement to audiokit.
If it was a shitty sounding app everybody would say well that’s 3 euro’s i wish i’ve spended on a nice beer.
Just because it is so good sounding people are pulling their hair out about this timing issue.
They can’t benefit from that huge kick😁’
If they fix this and i hope they will, it wil be my go to drum machine. For now the ruismaker remains undefeated.

moodscaper

@tk32 - but the Swift codebase is not being kind to them

I admit I haven't read all 13 pages of this, but is that what the AK team are actually saying?

I'm just curious, because I'm a Swift guy... (sorry @brambos )

jolico

@tk32 said:
Here's the TL;DR for this whole thread...

• Audiokit got egg on their face for releasing a drum plugin that can't keep time.
• Youtubers got egg on their face for not noticing the timing issue, or not mentioning it AT ALL.
• The forum noticed the issue immediately after launch, and a few people may have got pissy panty (but definitely not brother @gusgranite )
• Audiokit have been doing their damndest to 'Make AR-909 Great Again' since launch - but the Swift codebase is not being kind to them
• There has been a whole meta-debate about whether it is - or isn't - ok to voice criticism of this situation, or else if everyone should shut-up and accept timing faults in a plugin simply because it's Audiokit, or because it's cheap.
• And simmering under the surface are lots of strong opinions (one way or the other) about Audiokit's decision to pursue these Limited Edition apps in the first place (vs focusing on fixes for Synth One, FM2, D-1)

Also, some people suspect that the kick is actually sample based, but wouldn’t that be easier to process and not have timing issues, unless the sample hasn’t been cropped properly and has a bit of silence at the beginning?

tk32

@moodscaper said:
I admit I haven't read all 13 pages of this, but is that what the AK team are actually saying?

In truth, they haven't said this. But my intuition is that they are having a mighty tough time trying to get a high level language like Swift to play nicely with low level DSP audio. Though I'm no expert in this field.

Zerozerozero

Also, some people suspect that the kick is actually sample based, but wouldn’t that be easier to process and not have timing issues, unless the sample hasn’t been cropped properly and has a bit of silence at the beginning?

The kick is a strange one. It seems to do the same “aliasing “ type sound that DM1 does (definitely sample based) when tuned in any way. Also doesn’t respond to velocity in external sequencer when other sounds do ...

rezidue

@Jamie_Mallender said:
I mean, you can hear any issues in my video?

No, because you stayed within the app. It will keep time and you won’t notice the delay playing live with it. If you were to use it as an AUv3 and send midi to it or use the internal sequencer along with other sequenced instruments you would have a greater chance of noticing the delay.

Sergiu

Yeah...kickdrum sounds "interesting"> @Zerozerozero said:

Also, some people suspect that the kick is actually sample based, but wouldn’t that be easier to process and not have timing issues, unless the sample hasn’t been cropped properly and has a bit of silence at the beginning?

The kick is a strange one. It seems to do the same “aliasing “ type sound that DM1 does (definitely sample based) when tuned in any way. Also doesn’t respond to velocity in external sequencer when other sounds do ...

Jamie_Mallender

@rezidue said:

@Jamie_Mallender said:
I mean, you can hear any issues in my video?

No, because you stayed within the app. It will keep time and you won’t notice the delay playing live with it. If you were to use it as an AUv3 and send midi to it or use the internal sequencer along with other sequenced instruments you would have a greater chance of noticing the delay.

I’m not sure I understand you, it might just be me being thick. If it is, I apologise, I don’t mean to be confrontational but in this video I use the AR-909 in AUM and in a few different Cubasis 3 projects. Now, to be fair - having seen other people’s tests of the App and then having done my own (after making my video) I’ve found exactly the same as some of you guys. Run it alongside Ruismaker in AUM and the latency is noticeable. The AUM project at the beginning of my video doesn’t show it up though - it might if it were a different kind of arrangement, I’m not sure. In Cubasis 3 though - I haven’t measured the latency in any other way than to listen to the music and it sounds in time to my ears. Interesting thing - everything I’ve frozen from the AR-909 is bang on the money and everything ends up frozen before I mix anyway.

If I can answer a couple of other things in this same post - I would like to make sure I’ve expressed myself as I intended. I wanted to say that it’s important for people to be honest but that it doesn’t have to be done in a shitty way. I’m not calling people out for being truthful or asking them to stop being so. If I can back that up by saying, nobody has been more outspoken about Steinberg with regards to Cubasis 3 than I have, and I’ve said how I feel about it on my channel, to Lars, in the Steinberg forum and this one and Facebook etc.. I’ve also been brutally honest about my distaste for Positive Grids sales tactics. Steinberg responded with honours - by asking me to be a beta tester. I’m helping them improve Cubasis 3 and proud of that. Positive Grid just ignore me. I’m not the kind of YouTuber who won’t say anything bad about an app or company because I don’t want to jeopardise getting free stuff. But I would always say it as nicely as can be.

If a developer sends me an app or if I buy an app just cos I want it I’ll use it, I’ll make music with it, I’ll teach people how to use it, I’ll do anything to help anyone with iOS music absolutely whenever I can whether they’re a patron or watch my channel or not but - I’m not a guy who measures milliseconds. I’ll throw it into the mix and if it sounds good to me, it flies. I’m here to make music and to help others do so.

wim

@Zerozerozero said:

Also, some people suspect that the kick is actually sample based, but wouldn’t that be easier to process and not have timing issues, unless the sample hasn’t been cropped properly and has a bit of silence at the beginning?

The kick is a strange one. It seems to do the same “aliasing “ type sound that DM1 does (definitely sample based) when tuned in any way. Also doesn’t respond to velocity in external sequencer when other sounds do ...

Yes, the aliasing “ringing” when tuned is the only part I really don’t care for. It’s not as noticeable in AUM as in GarageBand.

The kick is not sampled. And the earth is not flat. Just sayin’.

gusgranite

@wim said:

@Zerozerozero said:

Also, some people suspect that the kick is actually sample based, but wouldn’t that be easier to process and not have timing issues, unless the sample hasn’t been cropped properly and has a bit of silence at the beginning?

The kick is a strange one. It seems to do the same “aliasing “ type sound that DM1 does (definitely sample based) when tuned in any way. Also doesn’t respond to velocity in external sequencer when other sounds do ...

Yes, the aliasing “ringing” when tuned is the only part I really don’t care for. It’s not as noticeable in AUM as in GarageBand.

The kick is not sampled. And the earth is not flat. Just sayin’.

Lol I’m not getting involved in no kick sample conspiracy! If Matt says no samples them it’s no samples. 👌

moodscaper

@tk32 said: But my intuition is that they are having a mighty tough time trying to get a high level language like Swift to play nicely with low level DSP audio.

I suspect it's more of an issue with Apple's MusicPlayer / MusicSequence, or how they're being used. I've no idea if that's what they're actually using under the hood, but I've seen some AK stuff that does, so my intuition leans more in that direction

By the time you're into all that low-level DSP stuff, there should be no trace whatsoever of even Objective-C code, let along Swift

I think it's an unfortunate consequence of the AK team having grasped the nettle and being very up-front about doing audio stuff with Swift (and good on'em for doing so!), whenever something goes wrong, the reaction in user-land is oh... it's because they're using Swift. I think often, the more likely explanation is simply that this stuff is hard to get right, and there's virtually no documentation telling us (the developers) how to do it right

A lot of the time you're learning from your mistakes, and some developers are further down that road than others...

Zerozerozero

Yes, the aliasing “ringing” when tuned is the only part I really don’t care for. It’s not as noticeable in AUM as in GarageBand.

The kick is not sampled. And the earth is not flat. Just sayin’.

Lol I’m not getting involved in no kick sample conspiracy! If Matt says no samples them it’s no samples. 👌

😂🤔
Hopefully the dev can take all this criticism as a back handed compliment. If we didn’t care, we wouldn’t moan. Obviously an appetite/market for an aggressive, tweakable drum machine. Hope they keep at it. Midi learn is a big one 🤞

Philandering_Bastard

@Zerozerozero said:

Also, some people suspect that the kick is actually sample based, but wouldn’t that be easier to process and not have timing issues, unless the sample hasn’t been cropped properly and has a bit of silence at the beginning?

The kick is a strange one. It seems to do the same “aliasing “ type sound that DM1 does (definitely sample based) when tuned in any way. Also doesn’t respond to velocity in external sequencer when other sounds do ...

It also has twice the lag of the other instruments.