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The Nightmare that is a Reality

12467…15

Comments

  • Paul16Paul16

    & more systemic problems .....

    “The IOM has been telling the CDC for over 23 years that they have inadequate information (and none at all in some cases) to advise on the causal relationship between vaccines and adverse events for a majority of adverse events reported. In a 1994 report on vaccines and adverse events the IOM stated, “The lack of adequate data regarding many of the adverse events under study was of major concern to the committee…Although the committee was not charged with proposing specific research investigations, in the course of its review additional obvious needs for research and surveillance were identified, and those are briefly described here.” (emphasis mine) In 2011, the IOM conducted another study examining the scientific evidence in studies available for 158 vaccine adverse effects. Again, they concluded that they had inadequate information to come to a decision, “The vast majority of causality conclusions in the report are the evidence was inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship.” (emphasis mine)

    While one might expect a new program (new in 1990) to have a few bugs that need to be worked out, I would expect that when it comes to being able to ascertain vaccine safety, working out those bugs should be priority number one. Certainly today in 2017, a whopping 27 years later, the failure of the CDC to address this monumental danger to public health should be viewed with a skepticism much greater than mere suspicion.”

    https://truthsnitch.com/tag/failures-of-vaers/

  • ervinervin

    @Paul16 said:

    https://truthsnitch.com/tag/failures-of-vaers/

    I clicked it and I gotta say it's a perfect link, Paul. "Truth snitch - Hot on the trail of Biblical and societal truth", written by someone who starts their bio by stating they are "first and foremost a Bible believing Christian", which means they live their life in 2021 based on a book written two thousand years ago, is undoubtedly the site you want to obtain your vaccination information from.

  • purpan2purpan2

    The National Vaccine Information Centre isn’t really a reputable source, is it?

  • mjcouchemjcouche
    edited June 2021

    @ervin said:

    @Paul16 said:

    https://truthsnitch.com/tag/failures-of-vaers/

    I clicked it and I gotta say it's a perfect link, Paul. "Truth snitch - Hot on the trail of Biblical and societal truth", written by someone who starts their bio by stating they are "first and foremost a Bible believing Christian", which means they live their life in 2021 based on a book written two thousand years ago, is undoubtedly the site you want to obtain your vaccination information from.

    Setting aside the veracity (or lack thereof) of the article, I have to point out that “the current date” or “timeline” has no bearing on the truth of a matter. For example, Isn’t racism wrong no matter which era it occurs in, or which era we are in? There is an objective value to these things. We need to start thinking on a deeper level.

  • purpan2purpan2

    Worth considering....
    https://adn.com/nation-world/2019/12/23/major-funder-of-anti-vaccine-movement-makes-millions-selling-natural-health-products/

  • ervinervin

    @mjcouche said:

    @ervin said:

    @Paul16 said:

    https://truthsnitch.com/tag/failures-of-vaers/

    I clicked it and I gotta say it's a perfect link, Paul. "Truth snitch - Hot on the trail of Biblical and societal truth", written by someone who starts their bio by stating they are "first and foremost a Bible believing Christian", which means they live their life in 2021 based on a book written two thousand years ago, is undoubtedly the site you want to obtain your vaccination information from.

    Setting aside the veracity (or lack thereof) of the article, I have to point out that “the current date” or “timeline” has no bearing on the truth of a matter. For example, Isn’t racism wrong no matter which era it occurs in, or which era we are in? There is an objective value to these things. We need to start thinking on a deeper level.

    The Bible objectively has nothing meaningful to say about a lot of modern topics that were not known to men (or, weirdly, God) back in the day. Like vaccination. Or splitting atoms. Or space travel. In that sense, the current date does absolutely matter. How could it not?

    (OTOH, the Bible does expound on topics, like slavery, or masturbation, or what to do with your children if they talk back at you, which are still relevant today. But what it says about them is, well... but that's another conversation.)

  • espiegel123espiegel123

    @Paul16 said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Identor said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Identor said:
    To end the pandemic: Don't fight it, live with it, it's a battle you can't win, like the flu.

    We fight the flu. The flu is also less dangerous. We have reduced many diseases that were major causes or mortality to mere nuisances by using modern medical practices. Perhaps, you are too young to have parents that had to worry when growing up about the possibility of dying or being permanently impaired as the result of diseases like smallpox and polio that many people don't think about.

    Polio and Smallpox has 1 variant, so can be effectively treated. It's 1 vaccin for the rest of your life. Covid and Flu has many variants and is constantly changing. It can't be treated. The covid vaccin was created in half a year? In that timespan new variants will show up. I'd rather build resistance the natural way, then getting a shot every half year with build up of toxins and chemicals in my body.
    And, I'm 54 and my mother is 84

    There is no natural way to get immunity to covid or the flu except for contracting them. The death toll from the flu has gone down hugely in the age of vaccination. Vaccination is dramatically reducing the death toll and hospitalization incidence from COVID.

    The more cases of COVID we allow, the more infectious the variants that become dominant.

    Faith based medicine.....

    “But the truth is that the science remains far from clear cut, even for influenza vaccines that have been used for decades. Although randomised trials have shown an effect in reducing the risk of symptomatic influenza, such trials have never been conducted in elderly people living in the community to see whether they save lives.

    Only two placebo controlled trials in this population have ever been conducted, and neither was designed to detect any difference in hospital admissions or deaths.23 Moreover, dramatic increases in use of influenza vaccines has not been associated with a decline in mortality.”

    https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4037

    You are quoting an opinion piece published before the trials were completed and raised questions about which we now know the answers for the COViD vaccines. If anything, they have exceeded expectations and the empirical evidence is overwhelming that where the two dose vaccines are in use infections, deaths and hospitalizations are down dramatically.

  • espiegel123espiegel123

    @Paul16 said:
    systemic problems, rarely referenced ...

    “ The National Vaccine Information Center maintains that there is an inherent conflict of interest in allowing the same health officials in federal agencies responsible for researching, developing, regulating, making national policy for and promoting vaccines to also be in control of monitoring vaccine reactions and evaluating health problems associated with vaccines. There is a similar conflict of interest in relying solely on scientific data supplied by drug companies, who make and sell vaccines for a profit, to license vaccines safe for use by the public without corroborating independent scientific data about the vaccine's safety.

    "Health officials in federal agencies have no accountability to anyone when it comes to setting priorities for how our tax dollars are used when it comes to vaccine research," said NVIC president and co-founder Barbara Loe Fisher. "They can choose to do whatever they want to do with the money they get from Congress. And they choose to ignore the mounting evidence that vaccines are playing a role in the current epidemic of chronic disease, such as diabetes, in our society. Instead, our tax money is used to create more vaccines to add to the mandatory vaccination schedule for our children. There have never been and there are no plans to fund large independent studies to back-up the scientific validity of the government's current vaccine policies and independently confirm they are safe."

    https://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-diseases/Diabetes/juvenilediabetes.aspx

    NVIC is an anti-vaccination organization that per wikipedia promotes false and misleading information.

  • espiegel123espiegel123

    @purpan2 said:
    The National Vaccine Information Centre isn’t really a reputable source, is it?

    It is not.

  • espiegel123espiegel123

    Anyone discouraging people from becoming vaccinated against COVID is advocating to keep the pandemic going. The new delta variant is significantly more infectious than earlier strains and is becoming dominant.

  • NeuMNeuM

    @espiegel123 said:
    Anyone discouraging people from becoming vaccinated against COVID is advocating to keep the pandemic going. The new delta variant is significantly more infectious than earlier strains and is becoming dominant.

    That’s another broad brush statement that cannot possibly be backed by real science. People who have already had COVID don’t need to be vaccinated. Natural immunity is “as good as” or better than a vaccine. People who are not in the highest-risk groups do not have to worry about dying from COVID. And so-called “herd immunity” is the fastest way out of the tail end of the pandemic. In much of the US, even in psychotically overregulated California, it is now no longer recommended to wear a mask if one has had COVID and recovered or been vaccinated.

  • espiegel123espiegel123

    @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    Anyone discouraging people from becoming vaccinated against COVID is advocating to keep the pandemic going. The new delta variant is significantly more infectious than earlier strains and is becoming dominant.

    That’s another broad brush statement that cannot possibly be backed by real science. People who have already had COVID don’t need to be vaccinated. Natural immunity is “as good as” or better than a vaccine. People who are not in the highest-risk groups do not have to worry about dying from COVID. And so-called “herd immunity” is the fastest way out of the tail end of the pandemic. In much of the US, even in psychotically overregulated California, it is now no longer recommended to wear a mask if one has had COVID and recovered or been vaccinated.

    NeuM, you continue distract away from points that have been made over and over again.

    The most important reasons to be vaccinated have nothing to do with individual risk, they are about stopping the spread.

    If you get COVID, you are likely to pass it on to other people. Even if you don't die or have long term complications, it is likely someone downstream from you will.

    Most people that get Covid and pass it on (I.e. most people that get covid) will have played a role in someone downstream dying or having long-term health problems. So, stop focusing on your personal risk.

    Also, the more infections that there are, the more mutations there will be. We now know that unlike predictions from last year: the mutations have increased infectivity.

    I understand that this will mean nothing to you as you repeat over and over statements that are focused on personal risk...and ignore risk to the community.

    p.s. No deadly epidemic disease has died off due to naturally-acquired herd immunity. If we were to even try to go down the herd immunity path, millions would die from COVID in the U.S.

  • NeuMNeuM

    @espiegel123 said:

    @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    Anyone discouraging people from becoming vaccinated against COVID is advocating to keep the pandemic going. The new delta variant is significantly more infectious than earlier strains and is becoming dominant.

    That’s another broad brush statement that cannot possibly be backed by real science. People who have already had COVID don’t need to be vaccinated. Natural immunity is “as good as” or better than a vaccine. People who are not in the highest-risk groups do not have to worry about dying from COVID. And so-called “herd immunity” is the fastest way out of the tail end of the pandemic. In much of the US, even in psychotically overregulated California, it is now no longer recommended to wear a mask if one has had COVID and recovered or been vaccinated.

    NeuM, you continue distract away from points that have been made over and over again.

    The most important reasons to be vaccinated have nothing to do with individual risk, they are about stopping the spread.

    If you get COVID, you are likely to pass it on to other people. Even if you don't die or have long term complications, it is likely someone downstream from you will.

    Most people that get Covid and pass it on (I.e. most people that get covid) will have played a role in someone downstream dying or having long-term health problems. So, stop focusing on your personal risk.

    Also, the more infections that there are, the more mutations there will be. We now know that unlike predictions from last year: the mutations have increased infectivity.

    I understand that this will mean nothing to you as you repeat over and over statements that are focused on personal risk...and ignore risk to the community.

    p.s. No deadly epidemic disease has died off due to naturally-acquired herd immunity. If we were to even try to go down the herd immunity path, millions would die from COVID in the U.S.

    That’s just completely incorrect. Herd immunity is preferable and millions will not die. COVID is a great danger for a VERY SMALL SUBSET OF THE POPULATION. There are few unknowns at this point.

  • espiegel123espiegel123

    @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    Anyone discouraging people from becoming vaccinated against COVID is advocating to keep the pandemic going. The new delta variant is significantly more infectious than earlier strains and is becoming dominant.

    That’s another broad brush statement that cannot possibly be backed by real science. People who have already had COVID don’t need to be vaccinated. Natural immunity is “as good as” or better than a vaccine. People who are not in the highest-risk groups do not have to worry about dying from COVID. And so-called “herd immunity” is the fastest way out of the tail end of the pandemic. In much of the US, even in psychotically overregulated California, it is now no longer recommended to wear a mask if one has had COVID and recovered or been vaccinated.

    NeuM, you continue distract away from points that have been made over and over again.

    The most important reasons to be vaccinated have nothing to do with individual risk, they are about stopping the spread.

    If you get COVID, you are likely to pass it on to other people. Even if you don't die or have long term complications, it is likely someone downstream from you will.

    Most people that get Covid and pass it on (I.e. most people that get covid) will have played a role in someone downstream dying or having long-term health problems. So, stop focusing on your personal risk.

    Also, the more infections that there are, the more mutations there will be. We now know that unlike predictions from last year: the mutations have increased infectivity.

    I understand that this will mean nothing to you as you repeat over and over statements that are focused on personal risk...and ignore risk to the community.

    p.s. No deadly epidemic disease has died off due to naturally-acquired herd immunity. If we were to even try to go down the herd immunity path, millions would die from COVID in the U.S.

    That’s just completely incorrect. Herd immunity is preferable and millions will not die. COVID is a great danger for a VERY SMALL SUBSET OF THE POPULATION. There are few unknowns at this point.

    NeuM. You are flat out wrong about herd immunity. I understand that in certain circles (which in medical and public health circles only includes fringe players) there is a lot of buzz about herd immunity. But do some research outside of those circles.

    Seriously, find a deadly epidemic disease that has died off because of herd immunity.

    Even if only a small subset of the population is at risk that small subset is a large number of people. (Just look at how many people have died while we got nowhere even close to herd immunity).

    Please remember, death is not the only bad outcome. Even if it were, the number of people that would die in the U.S. to achieve herd immunity would have been many times higher than the current death toll of over 600,000.

    I suspect you will now tell me that 600,000 people in the U.S. did not really die because of COVID.

    Since you are big on personal responsibility. How about this. People that choose not to become vaccinated take on the liability for all expenses related to COVID. Since COVID is almost entirely passed between unvaccinated people, this shifts the burden to the people responsible for spreading the disease.

  • NeuMNeuM
    edited June 2021

    @espiegel123 said:

    @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    Anyone discouraging people from becoming vaccinated against COVID is advocating to keep the pandemic going. The new delta variant is significantly more infectious than earlier strains and is becoming dominant.

    That’s another broad brush statement that cannot possibly be backed by real science. People who have already had COVID don’t need to be vaccinated. Natural immunity is “as good as” or better than a vaccine. People who are not in the highest-risk groups do not have to worry about dying from COVID. And so-called “herd immunity” is the fastest way out of the tail end of the pandemic. In much of the US, even in psychotically overregulated California, it is now no longer recommended to wear a mask if one has had COVID and recovered or been vaccinated.

    NeuM, you continue distract away from points that have been made over and over again.

    The most important reasons to be vaccinated have nothing to do with individual risk, they are about stopping the spread.

    If you get COVID, you are likely to pass it on to other people. Even if you don't die or have long term complications, it is likely someone downstream from you will.

    Most people that get Covid and pass it on (I.e. most people that get covid) will have played a role in someone downstream dying or having long-term health problems. So, stop focusing on your personal risk.

    Also, the more infections that there are, the more mutations there will be. We now know that unlike predictions from last year: the mutations have increased infectivity.

    I understand that this will mean nothing to you as you repeat over and over statements that are focused on personal risk...and ignore risk to the community.

    p.s. No deadly epidemic disease has died off due to naturally-acquired herd immunity. If we were to even try to go down the herd immunity path, millions would die from COVID in the U.S.

    That’s just completely incorrect. Herd immunity is preferable and millions will not die. COVID is a great danger for a VERY SMALL SUBSET OF THE POPULATION. There are few unknowns at this point.

    NeuM. You are flat out wrong about herd immunity. I understand that in certain circles (which in medical and public health circles only includes fringe players) there is a lot of buzz about herd immunity. But do some research outside of those circles.

    Seriously, find a deadly epidemic disease that has died off because of herd immunity.

    Even if only a small subset of the population is at risk that small subset is a large number of people. (Just look at how many people have died while we got nowhere even close to herd immunity).

    Please remember, death is not the only bad outcome. Even if it were, the number of people that would die in the U.S. to achieve herd immunity would have been many times higher than the current death toll of over 600,000.

    I suspect you will now tell me that 600,000 people in the U.S. did not really die because of COVID.

    Since you are big on personal responsibility. How about this. People that choose not to become vaccinated take on the liability for all expenses related to COVID. Since COVID is almost entirely passed between unvaccinated people, this shifts the burden to the people responsible for spreading the disease.

    I think you may have jumped to some conclusions about me. Guess we’ll see how you respond to this post…

    Personally, I’ve been fully vaccinated for months. I was not pressured into doing it. Getting vaccinated should always be a personal choice. Wearing a mask should be a personal choice. Staying at home versus going out in public should be a personal choice.

    And regarding herd immunity? It is going to happen one way or other eventually, but the larger population (those individuals who drive almost all economic activity) must be free to take risks appropriate to their situation in life. As we’ve seen over the past year+, total shutdown equals ruin. The largest number of people have borne unreasonable burdens to keep “safe” a fraction of the population.

  • MarkRMarkR

    @ervin said:

    @Paul16 said:

    https://truthsnitch.com/tag/failures-of-vaers/

    I clicked it and I gotta say it's a perfect link, Paul. "Truth snitch - Hot on the trail of Biblical and societal truth", written by someone who starts their bio by stating they are "first and foremost a Bible believing Christian", which means they live their life in 2021 based on a book written two thousand years ago, is undoubtedly the site you want to obtain your vaccination information from.

    She also says: "I am a creation literalist, meaning that I believe the earth and universe were created in 6 literal 24-hour days as described in Genesis." I retain my lifelong amazement that (seemingly) intelligent people believe and espouse this fairy tale. And, in many cases, set government / public policy based on said tales.

  • espiegel123espiegel123

    @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    Anyone discouraging people from becoming vaccinated against COVID is advocating to keep the pandemic going. The new delta variant is significantly more infectious than earlier strains and is becoming dominant.

    That’s another broad brush statement that cannot possibly be backed by real science. People who have already had COVID don’t need to be vaccinated. Natural immunity is “as good as” or better than a vaccine. People who are not in the highest-risk groups do not have to worry about dying from COVID. And so-called “herd immunity” is the fastest way out of the tail end of the pandemic. In much of the US, even in psychotically overregulated California, it is now no longer recommended to wear a mask if one has had COVID and recovered or been vaccinated.

    NeuM, you continue distract away from points that have been made over and over again.

    The most important reasons to be vaccinated have nothing to do with individual risk, they are about stopping the spread.

    If you get COVID, you are likely to pass it on to other people. Even if you don't die or have long term complications, it is likely someone downstream from you will.

    Most people that get Covid and pass it on (I.e. most people that get covid) will have played a role in someone downstream dying or having long-term health problems. So, stop focusing on your personal risk.

    Also, the more infections that there are, the more mutations there will be. We now know that unlike predictions from last year: the mutations have increased infectivity.

    I understand that this will mean nothing to you as you repeat over and over statements that are focused on personal risk...and ignore risk to the community.

    p.s. No deadly epidemic disease has died off due to naturally-acquired herd immunity. If we were to even try to go down the herd immunity path, millions would die from COVID in the U.S.

    That’s just completely incorrect. Herd immunity is preferable and millions will not die. COVID is a great danger for a VERY SMALL SUBSET OF THE POPULATION. There are few unknowns at this point.

    NeuM. You are flat out wrong about herd immunity. I understand that in certain circles (which in medical and public health circles only includes fringe players) there is a lot of buzz about herd immunity. But do some research outside of those circles.

    Seriously, find a deadly epidemic disease that has died off because of herd immunity.

    Even if only a small subset of the population is at risk that small subset is a large number of people. (Just look at how many people have died while we got nowhere even close to herd immunity).

    Please remember, death is not the only bad outcome. Even if it were, the number of people that would die in the U.S. to achieve herd immunity would have been many times higher than the current death toll of over 600,000.

    I suspect you will now tell me that 600,000 people in the U.S. did not really die because of COVID.

    Since you are big on personal responsibility. How about this. People that choose not to become vaccinated take on the liability for all expenses related to COVID. Since COVID is almost entirely passed between unvaccinated people, this shifts the burden to the people responsible for spreading the disease.

    I think you may have jumped to some conclusions about me. Guess we’ll see how you respond to this post…

    Personally, I’ve been fully vaccinated for months. I was not pressured into doing it. Getting vaccinated should always be a personal choice. Wearing a mask should be a personal choice. Staying at home versus going out in public should be a personal choice.

    And regarding herd immunity? It is going to happen one way or other eventually, but the larger population (those individuals who drive almost all economic activity) must be free to take risks appropriate to their situation in life. As we’ve seen over the past year+, total shutdown equals ruin. The largest number of people have borne unreasonable burdens to keep “safe” a fraction of the population.

    I don't know what assumptions you think I have made. I believe I have confined my comments to responding to claims that you have made.

    You keep repeating that herd immunity will happen naturally. I will repeat: provide evidence of any modern epidemic disease that has died out or been rendered innocuous by natural herd immunity.

    You keep ignoring (i.e. you have neither acknowledged nor refuted)

    • that the more infections there are, the more dangerous the variants,
    • people choosing not to become vaccinated are the ones overwhelmingly responsible for spreading the disease in the U.S.,
    • people need to consider not just their personal risk but the risk to others
    • unvaccinated people bear some responsibility for the people that become seriously ill or die as the result of their choice to not to be vaccinated
    • some people cannot be vaccinated and are at serious risk....people that choose not to be vaccinated are putting those people's lives in peril

    If people are going to be in situations where they might infect other people with COVID and are unvaccinated, wearing a mask shouldn't be optional. Otherwise, you basically are asserting a "right to infect".

  • NeuMNeuM
    edited June 2021

    @espiegel123 said:

    @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    Anyone discouraging people from becoming vaccinated against COVID is advocating to keep the pandemic going. The new delta variant is significantly more infectious than earlier strains and is becoming dominant.

    That’s another broad brush statement that cannot possibly be backed by real science. People who have already had COVID don’t need to be vaccinated. Natural immunity is “as good as” or better than a vaccine. People who are not in the highest-risk groups do not have to worry about dying from COVID. And so-called “herd immunity” is the fastest way out of the tail end of the pandemic. In much of the US, even in psychotically overregulated California, it is now no longer recommended to wear a mask if one has had COVID and recovered or been vaccinated.

    NeuM, you continue distract away from points that have been made over and over again.

    The most important reasons to be vaccinated have nothing to do with individual risk, they are about stopping the spread.

    If you get COVID, you are likely to pass it on to other people. Even if you don't die or have long term complications, it is likely someone downstream from you will.

    Most people that get Covid and pass it on (I.e. most people that get covid) will have played a role in someone downstream dying or having long-term health problems. So, stop focusing on your personal risk.

    Also, the more infections that there are, the more mutations there will be. We now know that unlike predictions from last year: the mutations have increased infectivity.

    I understand that this will mean nothing to you as you repeat over and over statements that are focused on personal risk...and ignore risk to the community.

    p.s. No deadly epidemic disease has died off due to naturally-acquired herd immunity. If we were to even try to go down the herd immunity path, millions would die from COVID in the U.S.

    That’s just completely incorrect. Herd immunity is preferable and millions will not die. COVID is a great danger for a VERY SMALL SUBSET OF THE POPULATION. There are few unknowns at this point.

    NeuM. You are flat out wrong about herd immunity. I understand that in certain circles (which in medical and public health circles only includes fringe players) there is a lot of buzz about herd immunity. But do some research outside of those circles.

    Seriously, find a deadly epidemic disease that has died off because of herd immunity.

    Even if only a small subset of the population is at risk that small subset is a large number of people. (Just look at how many people have died while we got nowhere even close to herd immunity).

    Please remember, death is not the only bad outcome. Even if it were, the number of people that would die in the U.S. to achieve herd immunity would have been many times higher than the current death toll of over 600,000.

    I suspect you will now tell me that 600,000 people in the U.S. did not really die because of COVID.

    Since you are big on personal responsibility. How about this. People that choose not to become vaccinated take on the liability for all expenses related to COVID. Since COVID is almost entirely passed between unvaccinated people, this shifts the burden to the people responsible for spreading the disease.

    I think you may have jumped to some conclusions about me. Guess we’ll see how you respond to this post…

    Personally, I’ve been fully vaccinated for months. I was not pressured into doing it. Getting vaccinated should always be a personal choice. Wearing a mask should be a personal choice. Staying at home versus going out in public should be a personal choice.

    And regarding herd immunity? It is going to happen one way or other eventually, but the larger population (those individuals who drive almost all economic activity) must be free to take risks appropriate to their situation in life. As we’ve seen over the past year+, total shutdown equals ruin. The largest number of people have borne unreasonable burdens to keep “safe” a fraction of the population.

    I don't know what assumptions you think I have made. I believe I have confined my comments to responding to claims that you have made.

    You keep repeating that herd immunity will happen naturally. I will repeat: provide evidence of any modern epidemic disease that has died out or been rendered innocuous by natural herd immunity.

    You keep ignoring (i.e. you have neither acknowledged nor refuted)

    • that the more infections there are, the more dangerous the variants,
    • people choosing not to become vaccinated are the ones overwhelmingly responsible for spreading the disease in the U.S.,
    • people need to consider not just their personal risk but the risk to others
    • unvaccinated people bear some responsibility for the people that become seriously ill or die as the result of their choice to not to be vaccinated
    • some people cannot be vaccinated and are at serious risk....people that choose not to be vaccinated are putting those people's lives in peril

    If people are going to be in situations where they might infect other people with COVID and are unvaccinated, wearing a mask shouldn't be optional. Otherwise, you basically are asserting a "right to infect".

    Masks don’t stop COVID, they only “slow the spread”. Those are the exact words of the alleged professionals who’ve been talking about masks for over a year. To really avoid COVID, a person would have to be completely isolated from others.

    The gap between what is realistic and what you may think is realistic is obviously huge.

  • espiegel123espiegel123

    @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    Anyone discouraging people from becoming vaccinated against COVID is advocating to keep the pandemic going. The new delta variant is significantly more infectious than earlier strains and is becoming dominant.

    That’s another broad brush statement that cannot possibly be backed by real science. People who have already had COVID don’t need to be vaccinated. Natural immunity is “as good as” or better than a vaccine. People who are not in the highest-risk groups do not have to worry about dying from COVID. And so-called “herd immunity” is the fastest way out of the tail end of the pandemic. In much of the US, even in psychotically overregulated California, it is now no longer recommended to wear a mask if one has had COVID and recovered or been vaccinated.

    NeuM, you continue distract away from points that have been made over and over again.

    The most important reasons to be vaccinated have nothing to do with individual risk, they are about stopping the spread.

    If you get COVID, you are likely to pass it on to other people. Even if you don't die or have long term complications, it is likely someone downstream from you will.

    Most people that get Covid and pass it on (I.e. most people that get covid) will have played a role in someone downstream dying or having long-term health problems. So, stop focusing on your personal risk.

    Also, the more infections that there are, the more mutations there will be. We now know that unlike predictions from last year: the mutations have increased infectivity.

    I understand that this will mean nothing to you as you repeat over and over statements that are focused on personal risk...and ignore risk to the community.

    p.s. No deadly epidemic disease has died off due to naturally-acquired herd immunity. If we were to even try to go down the herd immunity path, millions would die from COVID in the U.S.

    That’s just completely incorrect. Herd immunity is preferable and millions will not die. COVID is a great danger for a VERY SMALL SUBSET OF THE POPULATION. There are few unknowns at this point.

    NeuM. You are flat out wrong about herd immunity. I understand that in certain circles (which in medical and public health circles only includes fringe players) there is a lot of buzz about herd immunity. But do some research outside of those circles.

    Seriously, find a deadly epidemic disease that has died off because of herd immunity.

    Even if only a small subset of the population is at risk that small subset is a large number of people. (Just look at how many people have died while we got nowhere even close to herd immunity).

    Please remember, death is not the only bad outcome. Even if it were, the number of people that would die in the U.S. to achieve herd immunity would have been many times higher than the current death toll of over 600,000.

    I suspect you will now tell me that 600,000 people in the U.S. did not really die because of COVID.

    Since you are big on personal responsibility. How about this. People that choose not to become vaccinated take on the liability for all expenses related to COVID. Since COVID is almost entirely passed between unvaccinated people, this shifts the burden to the people responsible for spreading the disease.

    I think you may have jumped to some conclusions about me. Guess we’ll see how you respond to this post…

    Personally, I’ve been fully vaccinated for months. I was not pressured into doing it. Getting vaccinated should always be a personal choice. Wearing a mask should be a personal choice. Staying at home versus going out in public should be a personal choice.

    And regarding herd immunity? It is going to happen one way or other eventually, but the larger population (those individuals who drive almost all economic activity) must be free to take risks appropriate to their situation in life. As we’ve seen over the past year+, total shutdown equals ruin. The largest number of people have borne unreasonable burdens to keep “safe” a fraction of the population.

    I don't know what assumptions you think I have made. I believe I have confined my comments to responding to claims that you have made.

    You keep repeating that herd immunity will happen naturally. I will repeat: provide evidence of any modern epidemic disease that has died out or been rendered innocuous by natural herd immunity.

    You keep ignoring (i.e. you have neither acknowledged nor refuted)

    • that the more infections there are, the more dangerous the variants,
    • people choosing not to become vaccinated are the ones overwhelmingly responsible for spreading the disease in the U.S.,
    • people need to consider not just their personal risk but the risk to others
    • unvaccinated people bear some responsibility for the people that become seriously ill or die as the result of their choice to not to be vaccinated
    • some people cannot be vaccinated and are at serious risk....people that choose not to be vaccinated are putting those people's lives in peril

    If people are going to be in situations where they might infect other people with COVID and are unvaccinated, wearing a mask shouldn't be optional. Otherwise, you basically are asserting a "right to infect".

    Masks don’t stop COVID, they only “slow the spread”. Those are the exact words of the alleged professionals who’ve been talking about masks for over a year. To really avoid COVID, a person would have to be completely isolated from others.

    The gap between what is realistic and what you may think is realistic is obviously huge.

    Masks SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the likelihood that someone will transmit the virus if other social distancing mechanisms are observed.

  • IdentorIdentor
    edited June 2021

    If I look around me in a store, most people wear masks with gaps. Masks don't fully close the mouth and nose, and besides, the fabric of masks allow the virus to pass through. Since the mouth is almost touching the mask, the pressure of your breath will push the virus through the gaps in the fabric (aerosols). Your breath will also moisten the mask, and yet another medium for the virus to pass through.
    Aerosols are not "dropping" down after 1.5 meters. They float through the air "weightless", like mist.
    Put someone with a mask in a cooling cell. You would see that the vapour of his breath goes right through his mask.
    Protection screens doesn't work either. Aerosols "float" around it.
    Eyes are also a transmitter for the virus, and mostly ignored.
    The minister of health in my country has said that masks don't work and that it creates false security. Another minister said that masks is used for social behaviour.

  • richardyotrichardyot

    It doesn't look like prior infection guarantees immunity, there are thousands of reported second infections:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/17/nearly-16000-people-england-have-caught-covid-twice/

  • tk32tk32
    edited June 2021

    @richardyot said:
    It doesn't look like prior infection guarantees immunity, there are thousands of reported second infections:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/17/nearly-16000-people-england-have-caught-covid-twice/

    Remind me never to shake hands with any of these people. They are probably the same group who 'flush and go' when using public toilets :joy:

    (to all) Yes... I do realise this is a very serious matter. But we should also be careful not to forget how to laugh. Sometimes humour is needed in times of crisis more than at any other time.

  • Paul16Paul16

    @ervin said:

    @Paul16 said:

    https://truthsnitch.com/tag/failures-of-vaers/

    I clicked it and I gotta say it's a perfect link, Paul. "Truth snitch - Hot on the trail of Biblical and societal truth", written by someone who starts their bio by stating they are "first and foremost a Bible believing Christian", which means they live their life in 2021 based on a book written two thousand years ago, is undoubtedly the site you want to obtain your vaccination information from.

    was more about the workings of the existent safety systems than vaccines themselves, no ?

    personally i didn’t note any particular xtian leanings in the writers own content or interpretation of the situation, if that was an issue. that said, an authors sky god of choice doesn’t necessarily preclude my engagement

    the information in the article cites directly from the sources below

    https://www.congress.gov/106/crpt/hrpt977/CRPT-106hrpt977.pdf

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5201a1.htm

    https://www.nap.edu/read/2138/chapter/11

    https://www.nap.edu/read/13164/chapter/2#23

    https://wonder.cdc.gov/vaers.html

  • Paul16Paul16

    @espiegel123 said:

    https://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-diseases/Diabetes/juvenilediabetes.aspx

    NVIC is an anti-vaccination organization that per wikipedia promotes false and misleading information.

    ‘per Wikipedia’ is in no way definitive, imho

    according to their own remit ...

    “The non-profit National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) is an independent clearinghouse for information on diseases and vaccine science, policy, law and the ethical principle of informed consent. NVIC publishes information about vaccination and health to encourage educated decision-making. NVIC does not make vaccine use recommendations. NVIC supports the availability of all preventive health care options and the legal right for individuals to make informed, voluntary health choices for themselves and their children.”

    “The information on this website is intended to assist readers in making educated decisions about vaccination and is not intended to advise for or against the use of vaccines. In support of informed decision-making, NVIC encourages everyone to research and become fully informed about the complications of infectious diseases and complications of vaccines and consult one or more trusted health care professionals before making a decision about vaccination.”

  • Paul16Paul16

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Paul16 said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Identor said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Identor said:
    To end the pandemic: Don't fight it, live with it, it's a battle you can't win, like the flu.

    We fight the flu. The flu is also less dangerous. We have reduced many diseases that were major causes or mortality to mere nuisances by using modern medical practices. Perhaps, you are too young to have parents that had to worry when growing up about the possibility of dying or being permanently impaired as the result of diseases like smallpox and polio that many people don't think about.

    Polio and Smallpox has 1 variant, so can be effectively treated. It's 1 vaccin for the rest of your life. Covid and Flu has many variants and is constantly changing. It can't be treated. The covid vaccin was created in half a year? In that timespan new variants will show up. I'd rather build resistance the natural way, then getting a shot every half year with build up of toxins and chemicals in my body.
    And, I'm 54 and my mother is 84

    There is no natural way to get immunity to covid or the flu except for contracting them. The death toll from the flu has gone down hugely in the age of vaccination. Vaccination is dramatically reducing the death toll and hospitalization incidence from COVID.

    The more cases of COVID we allow, the more infectious the variants that become dominant.

    Faith based medicine.....

    “But the truth is that the science remains far from clear cut, even for influenza vaccines that have been used for decades. Although randomised trials have shown an effect in reducing the risk of symptomatic influenza, such trials have never been conducted in elderly people living in the community to see whether they save lives.

    Only two placebo controlled trials in this population have ever been conducted, and neither was designed to detect any difference in hospital admissions or deaths.23 Moreover, dramatic increases in use of influenza vaccines has not been associated with a decline in mortality.”

    https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4037

    You are quoting an opinion piece published before the trials were completed and raised questions about which we now know the answers for the COViD vaccines. If anything, they have exceeded expectations and the empirical evidence is overwhelming that where the two dose vaccines are in use infections, deaths and hospitalizations are down dramatically.

    the quote referenced was in regard to your previous statement on flu vaccines :

    “ There is no natural way to get immunity to covid or the flu except for contracting them. The death toll from the flu has gone down hugely in the age of vaccination.”

  • palmspalms

    this thread is a nightmare

  • tk32tk32
    edited June 2021

    @palms said:
    this thread is a nightmare

    Quite. All I hear is...

    "My quotes are better than your quotes"

    "Well... my sources are better than your sources"

    ======
    ...for the record I agree with @espiegel123 - according to my own sensemaking and reason, he is talking the most objectively truthfully in this thread.

  • tk32tk32
    edited June 2021

    getting back to the OT... I notice that Bret Weinstein is getting closer and closer to 3 strikes on his YouTube channel.

    He's obviously passionate about being pro-scientific method, pro-free speech and anti-censorship - and willing to risk losing a big source of income if he gets booted from YT - but at the same time, I can't help feel he might enjoy flirting with the censorship authority and power of social media and big tech. It's almost as if he is making a calculated risk that being blocked (martyred?) by YouTube would actually boost his audience and status.

    His brother Eric Weinstein is also trying to help Bret gain some momentum for the hashtag #followthesilence, but - quite interestingly - you'll never hear Eric make any claims for or against Ivermectin's prophylactic credentials or efficacy in public.

  • NeuMNeuM

    @Identor said:
    If I look around me in a store, most people wear masks with gaps. Masks don't fully close the mouth and nose, and besides, the fabric of masks allow the virus to pass through. Since the mouth is almost touching the mask, the pressure of your breath will push the virus through the gaps in the fabric (aerosols). Your breath will also moisten the mask, and yet another medium for the virus to pass through.
    Aerosols are not "dropping" down after 1.5 meters. They float through the air "weightless", like mist.
    Put someone with a mask in a cooling cell. You would see that the vapour of his breath goes right through his mask.
    Protection screens doesn't work either. Aerosols "float" around it.
    Eyes are also a transmitter for the virus, and mostly ignored.
    The minister of health in my country has said that masks don't work and that it creates false security. Another minister said that masks is used for social behaviour.

    Total agreement. Even today in California the mask mandate has been lifted, yet people still walk around with masks which do not cover their noses indoors, wear masks outdoors and look fearfully on those who ARE following the science and no longer wear a mask. It’s mass psychosis caused by media and political personalities dishing out anti-science as science.

  • Paul16Paul16
    edited June 2021

    ‘mass psychosis’ is spot on

    average uk age of death with/of is 82

    average uk age of death is 80

    despite a world stopping pandemic, the total global population increased from 2020 > 2021

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