The Nightmare that is a Reality

knewspeak

@NeuM said:

@Simon said:

@NeuM said:
“Remember Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes exhausts and murders itself. There never was a Democracy Yet, that did not commit suicide. It is in vain to Say that Democracy is less vain, less proud, less selfish, less ambitious or less avaricious than Aristocracy or Monarchy. It is not true in Fact and no where appears in history.”

https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Adams/99-02-02-6371

That might have been the thinking in 1814 (well, one man's thinking) but things have probably changed a bit since then.

The future is not written. Where democracy goes is up to us, not Mr. Adams.

The founders of the US had the benefit of being very well educated, which is sadly not the case today. In their review of the great span of history, they saw clearly that human nature (that is to say “self-interest”) has remained THE constant. And the US is not a democracy. It is a democratic representative republic.

Of course the US population isn’t as educated, hence, President Trump and his attempt to usurp the Democratic Republic.

ervin

Dear fellow members, just a technical suggestion: please try to spot (and then hopefully ignore) the whataboutery when you get it here, repeatedly, in lieu of arguments, from some other fellow members. This is the nicest way I can say this. Good luck.

Simon

@knewspeak said:
Of course the US population isn’t as educated, hence, President Trump and his attempt to usurp the Democratic Republic.

Surely the same "uneducated" population also elected Obama...? :-)

Trump's win was more complex than the US population being "uneducated".

NeuM

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@knewspeak said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@LinearLineman said:
@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr, you are making perfect sense, IMO. I disagree with our respected colleague @NeuM. Last numbers I heard were that the vaccines were about 67% effective against Delta. Also, the immunity apparently deteriorates over time hence the boosters being made available in the US. So your 600 attendees have a 1 in 3 chance of contracting it if contact is made. asymptotically, perhaps, but still
really infectious to take home to the kiddies. Bah. The Age of Idiocy is well upon us now. Have you heard about the Delta+ variant?

Now let’s talk about Afghanistan to take our minds off Covid,

LL, If you endorse those quoted statistics, how might you characterize the "unmasked ball" (the gigantic birthday party) attended by possibly hundreds of maskless individuals?

What is this maskless ball of which you speak? Certainly, you aren't speaking of an event attended only by fully-vaccinated people who had all were COVID negative> @knewspeak said:

The vaccines don’t stop the spread, which means they will continue to mutate…endemic.

"vaccines don't stop the spread" is a misleading statement. It implies something that isn't true.

While it is true that if you are vaccinated AND become infected that it is possible for you to infect someone else. This is true of all vaccines...even those like the smallpox and polio vaccines that have more or less eliminated those diseases.

Vaccines (including the COVID vaccines) dramatically reduce spreading by making it MUCH less likely that someone will become infected in the first place. Additionally, if you do become infected while vaccinated, you are infectious for reduced period of time.

So, vaccinated people are much less likely to spread the disease when there is a large pool of infected people. And if everyone were vaccinated, the virus would spread much less than if everyone were vaccinated.

What I stated is perfectly true, nothing misleading. You then go on to agree. Vaccination will save lives, but won’t stop the virus spreading nor mutating, infant could cause them to mutate in more deadlier resilient forms, this is the risk. The genetic arms race.

Vaccination reduces spreading dramatically. Your statement implies otherwise.

Reducing spread (which vaccination does when widely adopted) also reduces mutations.

Will vaccination by itself eliminate the disease entirely, no. Global vaccination will dramatically reduce emergence of new mutations.

The vaccines are not a cure. They are a therapy to reduce the recovery time after contracting COVID. Both unvaccinated and vaccinated can carry and transmit COVID according to the latest body of knowledge. And you can get COVID whether you’ve been vaccinated or not.

On the upside, only about 1% of the population is at great potential risk and those at greatest risk fall into known high risk groups. Getting and recovering from COVID naturally is still the best case scenario for more than 99% of the population, vaccine or no vaccine. And forcing 99% into vaccine compliance to accommodate 1% is “undemocratic”, to put it charitably.

Vaccines reduce the likelihood of infection and drastically reduce the odds of serious illness.

"natural immunity" provides less robust immunity than the COVID vaccines.

You are also completely off-base when you say only 1% is at great potential risk.

It needs to be added death is not the only bad outcome.

This notion that forcing vaccination is "undemocratic" flies in the face of history. Smallpox eliminated and polio largely so via vaccination mandates.

If you’re talking about “worldwide” statistics, the number is slightly higher. Around 2%. In the US, it’s about 1%.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

That data does not say or imply that "only" 1% are AT RISK.

also, it can't be said often enough, if the only statistic you pay attention to is mortality, you are way underestimating the impact of this disease.

The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.

knewspeak

@Simon said:

@knewspeak said:
Of course the US population isn’t as educated, hence, President Trump and his attempt to usurp the Democratic Republic.

Surely the same "uneducated" population also elected Obama...? :-)

Trump's win was more complex than the US population being "uneducated".

Not the whole voted Obama, just enough, same with Trump, that’s how Democracy works. Churchill, one of the most popular leaders even got kicked out, Democracy slowly changing.

Simon

@NeuM said:
The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.

You may not be worried about it but I am. I don't want either :-)

I don't think that being in hospital with COVID is simply a matter of being "uncomfortable". Sitting on the sofa with badly arranged cushions is being uncomfortable. Being in hospital on a ventilator is more like torture.

Here are step-by-step details of what COVID does to your body:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-31/how-covid-delta-kills-patients-virus/100335290

It 'aint nice folks! Stay safe :-)

Krupa

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@knewspeak said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@LinearLineman said:
@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr, you are making perfect sense, IMO. I disagree with our respected colleague @NeuM. Last numbers I heard were that the vaccines were about 67% effective against Delta. Also, the immunity apparently deteriorates over time hence the boosters being made available in the US. So your 600 attendees have a 1 in 3 chance of contracting it if contact is made. asymptotically, perhaps, but still
really infectious to take home to the kiddies. Bah. The Age of Idiocy is well upon us now. Have you heard about the Delta+ variant?

Now let’s talk about Afghanistan to take our minds off Covid,

LL, If you endorse those quoted statistics, how might you characterize the "unmasked ball" (the gigantic birthday party) attended by possibly hundreds of maskless individuals?

What is this maskless ball of which you speak? Certainly, you aren't speaking of an event attended only by fully-vaccinated people who had all were COVID negative> @knewspeak said:

The vaccines don’t stop the spread, which means they will continue to mutate…endemic.

"vaccines don't stop the spread" is a misleading statement. It implies something that isn't true.

While it is true that if you are vaccinated AND become infected that it is possible for you to infect someone else. This is true of all vaccines...even those like the smallpox and polio vaccines that have more or less eliminated those diseases.

Vaccines (including the COVID vaccines) dramatically reduce spreading by making it MUCH less likely that someone will become infected in the first place. Additionally, if you do become infected while vaccinated, you are infectious for reduced period of time.

So, vaccinated people are much less likely to spread the disease when there is a large pool of infected people. And if everyone were vaccinated, the virus would spread much less than if everyone were vaccinated.

What I stated is perfectly true, nothing misleading. You then go on to agree. Vaccination will save lives, but won’t stop the virus spreading nor mutating, infant could cause them to mutate in more deadlier resilient forms, this is the risk. The genetic arms race.

Vaccination reduces spreading dramatically. Your statement implies otherwise.

Reducing spread (which vaccination does when widely adopted) also reduces mutations.

Will vaccination by itself eliminate the disease entirely, no. Global vaccination will dramatically reduce emergence of new mutations.

The vaccines are not a cure. They are a therapy to reduce the recovery time after contracting COVID. Both unvaccinated and vaccinated can carry and transmit COVID according to the latest body of knowledge. And you can get COVID whether you’ve been vaccinated or not.

On the upside, only about 1% of the population is at great potential risk and those at greatest risk fall into known high risk groups. Getting and recovering from COVID naturally is still the best case scenario for more than 99% of the population, vaccine or no vaccine. And forcing 99% into vaccine compliance to accommodate 1% is “undemocratic”, to put it charitably.

Vaccines reduce the likelihood of infection and drastically reduce the odds of serious illness.

"natural immunity" provides less robust immunity than the COVID vaccines.

You are also completely off-base when you say only 1% is at great potential risk.

It needs to be added death is not the only bad outcome.

This notion that forcing vaccination is "undemocratic" flies in the face of history. Smallpox eliminated and polio largely so via vaccination mandates.

If you’re talking about “worldwide” statistics, the number is slightly higher. Around 2%. In the US, it’s about 1%.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

That data does not say or imply that "only" 1% are AT RISK.

also, it can't be said often enough, if the only statistic you pay attention to is mortality, you are way underestimating the impact of this disease.

The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.

Tell that to the three people I know that every week or so are knocked flat for a day or so with their long covid. You can’t work, you can’t function. It’s not just mildly uncomfortable, it’s a change that affects people’s lives.

NeuM

@Krupa said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@knewspeak said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@LinearLineman said:
@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr, you are making perfect sense, IMO. I disagree with our respected colleague @NeuM. Last numbers I heard were that the vaccines were about 67% effective against Delta. Also, the immunity apparently deteriorates over time hence the boosters being made available in the US. So your 600 attendees have a 1 in 3 chance of contracting it if contact is made. asymptotically, perhaps, but still
really infectious to take home to the kiddies. Bah. The Age of Idiocy is well upon us now. Have you heard about the Delta+ variant?

Now let’s talk about Afghanistan to take our minds off Covid,

LL, If you endorse those quoted statistics, how might you characterize the "unmasked ball" (the gigantic birthday party) attended by possibly hundreds of maskless individuals?

What is this maskless ball of which you speak? Certainly, you aren't speaking of an event attended only by fully-vaccinated people who had all were COVID negative> @knewspeak said:

The vaccines don’t stop the spread, which means they will continue to mutate…endemic.

"vaccines don't stop the spread" is a misleading statement. It implies something that isn't true.

While it is true that if you are vaccinated AND become infected that it is possible for you to infect someone else. This is true of all vaccines...even those like the smallpox and polio vaccines that have more or less eliminated those diseases.

Vaccines (including the COVID vaccines) dramatically reduce spreading by making it MUCH less likely that someone will become infected in the first place. Additionally, if you do become infected while vaccinated, you are infectious for reduced period of time.

So, vaccinated people are much less likely to spread the disease when there is a large pool of infected people. And if everyone were vaccinated, the virus would spread much less than if everyone were vaccinated.

What I stated is perfectly true, nothing misleading. You then go on to agree. Vaccination will save lives, but won’t stop the virus spreading nor mutating, infant could cause them to mutate in more deadlier resilient forms, this is the risk. The genetic arms race.

Vaccination reduces spreading dramatically. Your statement implies otherwise.

Reducing spread (which vaccination does when widely adopted) also reduces mutations.

Will vaccination by itself eliminate the disease entirely, no. Global vaccination will dramatically reduce emergence of new mutations.

The vaccines are not a cure. They are a therapy to reduce the recovery time after contracting COVID. Both unvaccinated and vaccinated can carry and transmit COVID according to the latest body of knowledge. And you can get COVID whether you’ve been vaccinated or not.

On the upside, only about 1% of the population is at great potential risk and those at greatest risk fall into known high risk groups. Getting and recovering from COVID naturally is still the best case scenario for more than 99% of the population, vaccine or no vaccine. And forcing 99% into vaccine compliance to accommodate 1% is “undemocratic”, to put it charitably.

Vaccines reduce the likelihood of infection and drastically reduce the odds of serious illness.

"natural immunity" provides less robust immunity than the COVID vaccines.

You are also completely off-base when you say only 1% is at great potential risk.

It needs to be added death is not the only bad outcome.

This notion that forcing vaccination is "undemocratic" flies in the face of history. Smallpox eliminated and polio largely so via vaccination mandates.

If you’re talking about “worldwide” statistics, the number is slightly higher. Around 2%. In the US, it’s about 1%.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

That data does not say or imply that "only" 1% are AT RISK.

also, it can't be said often enough, if the only statistic you pay attention to is mortality, you are way underestimating the impact of this disease.

The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.

Tell that to the three people I know that every week or so are knocked flat for a day or so with their long covid. You can’t work, you can’t function. It’s not just mildly uncomfortable, it’s a change that affects people’s lives.

At no time have I said that COVID isn't real. It's real and it affects real people. The choice of whether or not one wants to get vaccinated for a virus which drastically affects such a small percentage of the public is a personal one and it's absurd that governments worldwide have overreacted in such a hysterical and anti-science fashion.

Krupa

@NeuM said:

@Krupa said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@knewspeak said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@LinearLineman said:
@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr, you are making perfect sense, IMO. I disagree with our respected colleague @NeuM. Last numbers I heard were that the vaccines were about 67% effective against Delta. Also, the immunity apparently deteriorates over time hence the boosters being made available in the US. So your 600 attendees have a 1 in 3 chance of contracting it if contact is made. asymptotically, perhaps, but still
really infectious to take home to the kiddies. Bah. The Age of Idiocy is well upon us now. Have you heard about the Delta+ variant?

Now let’s talk about Afghanistan to take our minds off Covid,

LL, If you endorse those quoted statistics, how might you characterize the "unmasked ball" (the gigantic birthday party) attended by possibly hundreds of maskless individuals?

What is this maskless ball of which you speak? Certainly, you aren't speaking of an event attended only by fully-vaccinated people who had all were COVID negative> @knewspeak said:

The vaccines don’t stop the spread, which means they will continue to mutate…endemic.

"vaccines don't stop the spread" is a misleading statement. It implies something that isn't true.

While it is true that if you are vaccinated AND become infected that it is possible for you to infect someone else. This is true of all vaccines...even those like the smallpox and polio vaccines that have more or less eliminated those diseases.

Vaccines (including the COVID vaccines) dramatically reduce spreading by making it MUCH less likely that someone will become infected in the first place. Additionally, if you do become infected while vaccinated, you are infectious for reduced period of time.

So, vaccinated people are much less likely to spread the disease when there is a large pool of infected people. And if everyone were vaccinated, the virus would spread much less than if everyone were vaccinated.

What I stated is perfectly true, nothing misleading. You then go on to agree. Vaccination will save lives, but won’t stop the virus spreading nor mutating, infant could cause them to mutate in more deadlier resilient forms, this is the risk. The genetic arms race.

Vaccination reduces spreading dramatically. Your statement implies otherwise.

Reducing spread (which vaccination does when widely adopted) also reduces mutations.

Will vaccination by itself eliminate the disease entirely, no. Global vaccination will dramatically reduce emergence of new mutations.

The vaccines are not a cure. They are a therapy to reduce the recovery time after contracting COVID. Both unvaccinated and vaccinated can carry and transmit COVID according to the latest body of knowledge. And you can get COVID whether you’ve been vaccinated or not.

On the upside, only about 1% of the population is at great potential risk and those at greatest risk fall into known high risk groups. Getting and recovering from COVID naturally is still the best case scenario for more than 99% of the population, vaccine or no vaccine. And forcing 99% into vaccine compliance to accommodate 1% is “undemocratic”, to put it charitably.

Vaccines reduce the likelihood of infection and drastically reduce the odds of serious illness.

"natural immunity" provides less robust immunity than the COVID vaccines.

You are also completely off-base when you say only 1% is at great potential risk.

It needs to be added death is not the only bad outcome.

This notion that forcing vaccination is "undemocratic" flies in the face of history. Smallpox eliminated and polio largely so via vaccination mandates.

If you’re talking about “worldwide” statistics, the number is slightly higher. Around 2%. In the US, it’s about 1%.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

That data does not say or imply that "only" 1% are AT RISK.

also, it can't be said often enough, if the only statistic you pay attention to is mortality, you are way underestimating the impact of this disease.

The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.

Tell that to the three people I know that every week or so are knocked flat for a day or so with their long covid. You can’t work, you can’t function. It’s not just mildly uncomfortable, it’s a change that affects people’s lives.

At no time have I said that COVID isn't real. It's real and it affects real people. The choice of whether or not one wants to get vaccinated for a virus which drastically affects such a small percentage of the public is a personal one and it's absurd that governments worldwide have overreacted in such a hysterical and anti-science fashion.

You said

‘The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.’

I simply corrected your assumption. You need to learn to converse with people.

Simon

I can see this thread ending badly... :-)

Simon

@NeuM said:
it's absurd that governments worldwide have overreacted in such a hysterical and anti-science fashion.

Why do you think they are doing that?

Both left wing and right wing governments around the world are supporting vaccination, masks and lockdowns.

NeuM

@Krupa said:

@NeuM said:

@Krupa said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@knewspeak said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@LinearLineman said:
@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr, you are making perfect sense, IMO. I disagree with our respected colleague @NeuM. Last numbers I heard were that the vaccines were about 67% effective against Delta. Also, the immunity apparently deteriorates over time hence the boosters being made available in the US. So your 600 attendees have a 1 in 3 chance of contracting it if contact is made. asymptotically, perhaps, but still
really infectious to take home to the kiddies. Bah. The Age of Idiocy is well upon us now. Have you heard about the Delta+ variant?

Now let’s talk about Afghanistan to take our minds off Covid,

LL, If you endorse those quoted statistics, how might you characterize the "unmasked ball" (the gigantic birthday party) attended by possibly hundreds of maskless individuals?

What is this maskless ball of which you speak? Certainly, you aren't speaking of an event attended only by fully-vaccinated people who had all were COVID negative> @knewspeak said:

The vaccines don’t stop the spread, which means they will continue to mutate…endemic.

"vaccines don't stop the spread" is a misleading statement. It implies something that isn't true.

While it is true that if you are vaccinated AND become infected that it is possible for you to infect someone else. This is true of all vaccines...even those like the smallpox and polio vaccines that have more or less eliminated those diseases.

Vaccines (including the COVID vaccines) dramatically reduce spreading by making it MUCH less likely that someone will become infected in the first place. Additionally, if you do become infected while vaccinated, you are infectious for reduced period of time.

So, vaccinated people are much less likely to spread the disease when there is a large pool of infected people. And if everyone were vaccinated, the virus would spread much less than if everyone were vaccinated.

What I stated is perfectly true, nothing misleading. You then go on to agree. Vaccination will save lives, but won’t stop the virus spreading nor mutating, infant could cause them to mutate in more deadlier resilient forms, this is the risk. The genetic arms race.

Vaccination reduces spreading dramatically. Your statement implies otherwise.

Reducing spread (which vaccination does when widely adopted) also reduces mutations.

Will vaccination by itself eliminate the disease entirely, no. Global vaccination will dramatically reduce emergence of new mutations.

The vaccines are not a cure. They are a therapy to reduce the recovery time after contracting COVID. Both unvaccinated and vaccinated can carry and transmit COVID according to the latest body of knowledge. And you can get COVID whether you’ve been vaccinated or not.

On the upside, only about 1% of the population is at great potential risk and those at greatest risk fall into known high risk groups. Getting and recovering from COVID naturally is still the best case scenario for more than 99% of the population, vaccine or no vaccine. And forcing 99% into vaccine compliance to accommodate 1% is “undemocratic”, to put it charitably.

Vaccines reduce the likelihood of infection and drastically reduce the odds of serious illness.

"natural immunity" provides less robust immunity than the COVID vaccines.

You are also completely off-base when you say only 1% is at great potential risk.

It needs to be added death is not the only bad outcome.

This notion that forcing vaccination is "undemocratic" flies in the face of history. Smallpox eliminated and polio largely so via vaccination mandates.

If you’re talking about “worldwide” statistics, the number is slightly higher. Around 2%. In the US, it’s about 1%.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

That data does not say or imply that "only" 1% are AT RISK.

also, it can't be said often enough, if the only statistic you pay attention to is mortality, you are way underestimating the impact of this disease.

The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.

Tell that to the three people I know that every week or so are knocked flat for a day or so with their long covid. You can’t work, you can’t function. It’s not just mildly uncomfortable, it’s a change that affects people’s lives.

At no time have I said that COVID isn't real. It's real and it affects real people. The choice of whether or not one wants to get vaccinated for a virus which drastically affects such a small percentage of the public is a personal one and it's absurd that governments worldwide have overreacted in such a hysterical and anti-science fashion.

You said

‘The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.’

I simply corrected your assumption. You need to learn to converse with people.

You're pushing your luck.

NeuM

@Simon said:

@NeuM said:
it's absurd that governments worldwide have overreacted in such a hysterical and anti-science fashion.

Why do you think they are doing that?

Both left wing and right wing governments around the world are supporting vaccination, masks and lockdowns.

Yes, and the science AND the math doesn't support any of it, EXCEPT for those in the 1-2% of all people who are at serious personal risk if they are unvaccinated and if they do not take prudent measures to protect themselves.

Krupa

@NeuM said:

@Krupa said:

@NeuM said:

@Krupa said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@knewspeak said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@LinearLineman said:
@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr, you are making perfect sense, IMO. I disagree with our respected colleague @NeuM. Last numbers I heard were that the vaccines were about 67% effective against Delta. Also, the immunity apparently deteriorates over time hence the boosters being made available in the US. So your 600 attendees have a 1 in 3 chance of contracting it if contact is made. asymptotically, perhaps, but still
really infectious to take home to the kiddies. Bah. The Age of Idiocy is well upon us now. Have you heard about the Delta+ variant?

Now let’s talk about Afghanistan to take our minds off Covid,

LL, If you endorse those quoted statistics, how might you characterize the "unmasked ball" (the gigantic birthday party) attended by possibly hundreds of maskless individuals?

What is this maskless ball of which you speak? Certainly, you aren't speaking of an event attended only by fully-vaccinated people who had all were COVID negative> @knewspeak said:

The vaccines don’t stop the spread, which means they will continue to mutate…endemic.

"vaccines don't stop the spread" is a misleading statement. It implies something that isn't true.

While it is true that if you are vaccinated AND become infected that it is possible for you to infect someone else. This is true of all vaccines...even those like the smallpox and polio vaccines that have more or less eliminated those diseases.

Vaccines (including the COVID vaccines) dramatically reduce spreading by making it MUCH less likely that someone will become infected in the first place. Additionally, if you do become infected while vaccinated, you are infectious for reduced period of time.

So, vaccinated people are much less likely to spread the disease when there is a large pool of infected people. And if everyone were vaccinated, the virus would spread much less than if everyone were vaccinated.

What I stated is perfectly true, nothing misleading. You then go on to agree. Vaccination will save lives, but won’t stop the virus spreading nor mutating, infant could cause them to mutate in more deadlier resilient forms, this is the risk. The genetic arms race.

Vaccination reduces spreading dramatically. Your statement implies otherwise.

Reducing spread (which vaccination does when widely adopted) also reduces mutations.

Will vaccination by itself eliminate the disease entirely, no. Global vaccination will dramatically reduce emergence of new mutations.

The vaccines are not a cure. They are a therapy to reduce the recovery time after contracting COVID. Both unvaccinated and vaccinated can carry and transmit COVID according to the latest body of knowledge. And you can get COVID whether you’ve been vaccinated or not.

On the upside, only about 1% of the population is at great potential risk and those at greatest risk fall into known high risk groups. Getting and recovering from COVID naturally is still the best case scenario for more than 99% of the population, vaccine or no vaccine. And forcing 99% into vaccine compliance to accommodate 1% is “undemocratic”, to put it charitably.

Vaccines reduce the likelihood of infection and drastically reduce the odds of serious illness.

"natural immunity" provides less robust immunity than the COVID vaccines.

You are also completely off-base when you say only 1% is at great potential risk.

It needs to be added death is not the only bad outcome.

This notion that forcing vaccination is "undemocratic" flies in the face of history. Smallpox eliminated and polio largely so via vaccination mandates.

If you’re talking about “worldwide” statistics, the number is slightly higher. Around 2%. In the US, it’s about 1%.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

That data does not say or imply that "only" 1% are AT RISK.

also, it can't be said often enough, if the only statistic you pay attention to is mortality, you are way underestimating the impact of this disease.

The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.

Tell that to the three people I know that every week or so are knocked flat for a day or so with their long covid. You can’t work, you can’t function. It’s not just mildly uncomfortable, it’s a change that affects people’s lives.

At no time have I said that COVID isn't real. It's real and it affects real people. The choice of whether or not one wants to get vaccinated for a virus which drastically affects such a small percentage of the public is a personal one and it's absurd that governments worldwide have overreacted in such a hysterical and anti-science fashion.

You said

‘The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.’

I simply corrected your assumption. You need to learn to converse with people.

You're pushing your luck.

I’m not even sure what you mean by that, but you need to drop the switch and bait tactics you like to employ in defence of your beliefs.

NeuM

@Krupa said:

@NeuM said:

@Krupa said:

@NeuM said:

@Krupa said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@knewspeak said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@LinearLineman said:
@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr, you are making perfect sense, IMO. I disagree with our respected colleague @NeuM. Last numbers I heard were that the vaccines were about 67% effective against Delta. Also, the immunity apparently deteriorates over time hence the boosters being made available in the US. So your 600 attendees have a 1 in 3 chance of contracting it if contact is made. asymptotically, perhaps, but still
really infectious to take home to the kiddies. Bah. The Age of Idiocy is well upon us now. Have you heard about the Delta+ variant?

Now let’s talk about Afghanistan to take our minds off Covid,

LL, If you endorse those quoted statistics, how might you characterize the "unmasked ball" (the gigantic birthday party) attended by possibly hundreds of maskless individuals?

What is this maskless ball of which you speak? Certainly, you aren't speaking of an event attended only by fully-vaccinated people who had all were COVID negative> @knewspeak said:

The vaccines don’t stop the spread, which means they will continue to mutate…endemic.

"vaccines don't stop the spread" is a misleading statement. It implies something that isn't true.

While it is true that if you are vaccinated AND become infected that it is possible for you to infect someone else. This is true of all vaccines...even those like the smallpox and polio vaccines that have more or less eliminated those diseases.

Vaccines (including the COVID vaccines) dramatically reduce spreading by making it MUCH less likely that someone will become infected in the first place. Additionally, if you do become infected while vaccinated, you are infectious for reduced period of time.

So, vaccinated people are much less likely to spread the disease when there is a large pool of infected people. And if everyone were vaccinated, the virus would spread much less than if everyone were vaccinated.

What I stated is perfectly true, nothing misleading. You then go on to agree. Vaccination will save lives, but won’t stop the virus spreading nor mutating, infant could cause them to mutate in more deadlier resilient forms, this is the risk. The genetic arms race.

Vaccination reduces spreading dramatically. Your statement implies otherwise.

Reducing spread (which vaccination does when widely adopted) also reduces mutations.

Will vaccination by itself eliminate the disease entirely, no. Global vaccination will dramatically reduce emergence of new mutations.

The vaccines are not a cure. They are a therapy to reduce the recovery time after contracting COVID. Both unvaccinated and vaccinated can carry and transmit COVID according to the latest body of knowledge. And you can get COVID whether you’ve been vaccinated or not.

On the upside, only about 1% of the population is at great potential risk and those at greatest risk fall into known high risk groups. Getting and recovering from COVID naturally is still the best case scenario for more than 99% of the population, vaccine or no vaccine. And forcing 99% into vaccine compliance to accommodate 1% is “undemocratic”, to put it charitably.

Vaccines reduce the likelihood of infection and drastically reduce the odds of serious illness.

"natural immunity" provides less robust immunity than the COVID vaccines.

You are also completely off-base when you say only 1% is at great potential risk.

It needs to be added death is not the only bad outcome.

This notion that forcing vaccination is "undemocratic" flies in the face of history. Smallpox eliminated and polio largely so via vaccination mandates.

If you’re talking about “worldwide” statistics, the number is slightly higher. Around 2%. In the US, it’s about 1%.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

That data does not say or imply that "only" 1% are AT RISK.

also, it can't be said often enough, if the only statistic you pay attention to is mortality, you are way underestimating the impact of this disease.

The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.

Tell that to the three people I know that every week or so are knocked flat for a day or so with their long covid. You can’t work, you can’t function. It’s not just mildly uncomfortable, it’s a change that affects people’s lives.

At no time have I said that COVID isn't real. It's real and it affects real people. The choice of whether or not one wants to get vaccinated for a virus which drastically affects such a small percentage of the public is a personal one and it's absurd that governments worldwide have overreacted in such a hysterical and anti-science fashion.

You said

‘The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.’

I simply corrected your assumption. You need to learn to converse with people.

You're pushing your luck.

I’m not even sure what you mean by that, but you need to drop the switch and bait tactics you like to employ in defence of your beliefs.

You are engaging in ad hominem attacks instead of sticking to the matter of discussion. Goodbye and good luck.

Krupa

@NeuM said:

@Krupa said:

@NeuM said:

@Krupa said:

@NeuM said:

@Krupa said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@knewspeak said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@LinearLineman said:
@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr, you are making perfect sense, IMO. I disagree with our respected colleague @NeuM. Last numbers I heard were that the vaccines were about 67% effective against Delta. Also, the immunity apparently deteriorates over time hence the boosters being made available in the US. So your 600 attendees have a 1 in 3 chance of contracting it if contact is made. asymptotically, perhaps, but still
really infectious to take home to the kiddies. Bah. The Age of Idiocy is well upon us now. Have you heard about the Delta+ variant?

Now let’s talk about Afghanistan to take our minds off Covid,

LL, If you endorse those quoted statistics, how might you characterize the "unmasked ball" (the gigantic birthday party) attended by possibly hundreds of maskless individuals?

What is this maskless ball of which you speak? Certainly, you aren't speaking of an event attended only by fully-vaccinated people who had all were COVID negative> @knewspeak said:

The vaccines don’t stop the spread, which means they will continue to mutate…endemic.

"vaccines don't stop the spread" is a misleading statement. It implies something that isn't true.

While it is true that if you are vaccinated AND become infected that it is possible for you to infect someone else. This is true of all vaccines...even those like the smallpox and polio vaccines that have more or less eliminated those diseases.

Vaccines (including the COVID vaccines) dramatically reduce spreading by making it MUCH less likely that someone will become infected in the first place. Additionally, if you do become infected while vaccinated, you are infectious for reduced period of time.

So, vaccinated people are much less likely to spread the disease when there is a large pool of infected people. And if everyone were vaccinated, the virus would spread much less than if everyone were vaccinated.

What I stated is perfectly true, nothing misleading. You then go on to agree. Vaccination will save lives, but won’t stop the virus spreading nor mutating, infant could cause them to mutate in more deadlier resilient forms, this is the risk. The genetic arms race.

Vaccination reduces spreading dramatically. Your statement implies otherwise.

Reducing spread (which vaccination does when widely adopted) also reduces mutations.

Will vaccination by itself eliminate the disease entirely, no. Global vaccination will dramatically reduce emergence of new mutations.

The vaccines are not a cure. They are a therapy to reduce the recovery time after contracting COVID. Both unvaccinated and vaccinated can carry and transmit COVID according to the latest body of knowledge. And you can get COVID whether you’ve been vaccinated or not.

On the upside, only about 1% of the population is at great potential risk and those at greatest risk fall into known high risk groups. Getting and recovering from COVID naturally is still the best case scenario for more than 99% of the population, vaccine or no vaccine. And forcing 99% into vaccine compliance to accommodate 1% is “undemocratic”, to put it charitably.

Vaccines reduce the likelihood of infection and drastically reduce the odds of serious illness.

"natural immunity" provides less robust immunity than the COVID vaccines.

You are also completely off-base when you say only 1% is at great potential risk.

It needs to be added death is not the only bad outcome.

This notion that forcing vaccination is "undemocratic" flies in the face of history. Smallpox eliminated and polio largely so via vaccination mandates.

If you’re talking about “worldwide” statistics, the number is slightly higher. Around 2%. In the US, it’s about 1%.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

That data does not say or imply that "only" 1% are AT RISK.

also, it can't be said often enough, if the only statistic you pay attention to is mortality, you are way underestimating the impact of this disease.

The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.

Tell that to the three people I know that every week or so are knocked flat for a day or so with their long covid. You can’t work, you can’t function. It’s not just mildly uncomfortable, it’s a change that affects people’s lives.

At no time have I said that COVID isn't real. It's real and it affects real people. The choice of whether or not one wants to get vaccinated for a virus which drastically affects such a small percentage of the public is a personal one and it's absurd that governments worldwide have overreacted in such a hysterical and anti-science fashion.

You said

‘The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.’

I simply corrected your assumption. You need to learn to converse with people.

You're pushing your luck.

I’m not even sure what you mean by that, but you need to drop the switch and bait tactics you like to employ in defence of your beliefs.

You are engaging in ad hominem attacks instead of sticking to the matter of discussion. Goodbye and good luck.

You’re not even engaging with your own arguments once someone points out a fallacy within them. I won’t wish you luck with that, as in the real world you’re not going to get anywhere.

Simon

@NeuM said:
Yes, and the science AND the math doesn't support any of it, EXCEPT for those in the 1-2% of all people who are at serious personal risk if they are unvaccinated and if they do not take prudent measures to protect themselves.

So why do you think governments are doing that? There must be a reason.

Arglebargle

@NeuM said:

@Krupa said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@knewspeak said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@LinearLineman said:
@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr, you are making perfect sense, IMO. I disagree with our respected colleague @NeuM. Last numbers I heard were that the vaccines were about 67% effective against Delta. Also, the immunity apparently deteriorates over time hence the boosters being made available in the US. So your 600 attendees have a 1 in 3 chance of contracting it if contact is made. asymptotically, perhaps, but still
really infectious to take home to the kiddies. Bah. The Age of Idiocy is well upon us now. Have you heard about the Delta+ variant?

Now let’s talk about Afghanistan to take our minds off Covid,

LL, If you endorse those quoted statistics, how might you characterize the "unmasked ball" (the gigantic birthday party) attended by possibly hundreds of maskless individuals?

What is this maskless ball of which you speak? Certainly, you aren't speaking of an event attended only by fully-vaccinated people who had all were COVID negative> @knewspeak said:

The vaccines don’t stop the spread, which means they will continue to mutate…endemic.

"vaccines don't stop the spread" is a misleading statement. It implies something that isn't true.

While it is true that if you are vaccinated AND become infected that it is possible for you to infect someone else. This is true of all vaccines...even those like the smallpox and polio vaccines that have more or less eliminated those diseases.

Vaccines (including the COVID vaccines) dramatically reduce spreading by making it MUCH less likely that someone will become infected in the first place. Additionally, if you do become infected while vaccinated, you are infectious for reduced period of time.

So, vaccinated people are much less likely to spread the disease when there is a large pool of infected people. And if everyone were vaccinated, the virus would spread much less than if everyone were vaccinated.

What I stated is perfectly true, nothing misleading. You then go on to agree. Vaccination will save lives, but won’t stop the virus spreading nor mutating, infant could cause them to mutate in more deadlier resilient forms, this is the risk. The genetic arms race.

Vaccination reduces spreading dramatically. Your statement implies otherwise.

Reducing spread (which vaccination does when widely adopted) also reduces mutations.

Will vaccination by itself eliminate the disease entirely, no. Global vaccination will dramatically reduce emergence of new mutations.

The vaccines are not a cure. They are a therapy to reduce the recovery time after contracting COVID. Both unvaccinated and vaccinated can carry and transmit COVID according to the latest body of knowledge. And you can get COVID whether you’ve been vaccinated or not.

On the upside, only about 1% of the population is at great potential risk and those at greatest risk fall into known high risk groups. Getting and recovering from COVID naturally is still the best case scenario for more than 99% of the population, vaccine or no vaccine. And forcing 99% into vaccine compliance to accommodate 1% is “undemocratic”, to put it charitably.

Vaccines reduce the likelihood of infection and drastically reduce the odds of serious illness.

"natural immunity" provides less robust immunity than the COVID vaccines.

You are also completely off-base when you say only 1% is at great potential risk.

It needs to be added death is not the only bad outcome.

This notion that forcing vaccination is "undemocratic" flies in the face of history. Smallpox eliminated and polio largely so via vaccination mandates.

If you’re talking about “worldwide” statistics, the number is slightly higher. Around 2%. In the US, it’s about 1%.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

That data does not say or imply that "only" 1% are AT RISK.

also, it can't be said often enough, if the only statistic you pay attention to is mortality, you are way underestimating the impact of this disease.

The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.

Tell that to the three people I know that every week or so are knocked flat for a day or so with their long covid. You can’t work, you can’t function. It’s not just mildly uncomfortable, it’s a change that affects people’s lives.

At no time have I said that COVID isn't real. It's real and it affects real people. The choice of whether or not one wants to get vaccinated for a virus which drastically affects such a small percentage of the public is a personal one and it's absurd that governments worldwide have overreacted in such a hysterical and anti-science fashion.

In my state, localities are renting refrigerated trucks to put the bodies of the dead in, because the morgues and funeral homes are filling up.

And government's power to mandate vaccination is settled law.

Simon

@Arglebargle said:
In my state, localities are renting refrigerated trucks to put the bodies of the dead in, because the morgues and funeral homes are filling up.

That's pretty bad :-(

In my city of 400,000 people we have not had a single COVID death or even a person with COVID FOR OVER A YEAR! Not one!

That was until last Thursday, when the Health Department announced 1 person with COVID.

They announced it Thursday morning and the government started a lockdown starting at 5pm THAT NIGHT. No waiting, no mucking about.

Today, exactly one week later, we have 83 active cases all over the city and 240 exposure locations around town. 19,000 people are in quarantine. That's with a full lockdown. This "Delta COVID" spreads so quickly.

AAnton

I basically left this place here when I stumbled over someone asking about side effects (minor of course, like maybe, red prick, so you "know it is working" - side-effects type) and trying to contribute with a touch of critical thinking. God forbid.

Same time the censorship and propaganda everywhere went crazy. Even a professional mailing list I used for years for people concerned with principle of "esteem" in communication suddenly went nazi.

When the dust settles, "everyone" will be ashamed. Or not.

JeffChasteen

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

@NeuM said:

Everything should be fine. If that massively attended birthday with almost no one following their own rules didn’t harm anyone, what real level of risk could a bunch of fully vaccinated people face at a business?

We’re not going to die, because we’re vaxxed and healthy enough to work. I’m more concerned about us spreading the virus out into the world, onto people more vulnerable than we are. If someone dies from our spreader event we may never even know about it.

Plus having to listen to top management speechify is the worst part of the job. That could be skewing my perspective.

You’re arguing with a libertarian about the idiocy of long-winded blathering.
Don’t forget...
they love them some John Galt.

You’re right, though.

espiegel123

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@knewspeak said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@LinearLineman said:
@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr, you are making perfect sense, IMO. I disagree with our respected colleague @NeuM. Last numbers I heard were that the vaccines were about 67% effective against Delta. Also, the immunity apparently deteriorates over time hence the boosters being made available in the US. So your 600 attendees have a 1 in 3 chance of contracting it if contact is made. asymptotically, perhaps, but still
really infectious to take home to the kiddies. Bah. The Age of Idiocy is well upon us now. Have you heard about the Delta+ variant?

Now let’s talk about Afghanistan to take our minds off Covid,

LL, If you endorse those quoted statistics, how might you characterize the "unmasked ball" (the gigantic birthday party) attended by possibly hundreds of maskless individuals?

What is this maskless ball of which you speak? Certainly, you aren't speaking of an event attended only by fully-vaccinated people who had all were COVID negative> @knewspeak said:

The vaccines don’t stop the spread, which means they will continue to mutate…endemic.

"vaccines don't stop the spread" is a misleading statement. It implies something that isn't true.

While it is true that if you are vaccinated AND become infected that it is possible for you to infect someone else. This is true of all vaccines...even those like the smallpox and polio vaccines that have more or less eliminated those diseases.

Vaccines (including the COVID vaccines) dramatically reduce spreading by making it MUCH less likely that someone will become infected in the first place. Additionally, if you do become infected while vaccinated, you are infectious for reduced period of time.

So, vaccinated people are much less likely to spread the disease when there is a large pool of infected people. And if everyone were vaccinated, the virus would spread much less than if everyone were vaccinated.

What I stated is perfectly true, nothing misleading. You then go on to agree. Vaccination will save lives, but won’t stop the virus spreading nor mutating, infant could cause them to mutate in more deadlier resilient forms, this is the risk. The genetic arms race.

Vaccination reduces spreading dramatically. Your statement implies otherwise.

Reducing spread (which vaccination does when widely adopted) also reduces mutations.

Will vaccination by itself eliminate the disease entirely, no. Global vaccination will dramatically reduce emergence of new mutations.

The vaccines are not a cure. They are a therapy to reduce the recovery time after contracting COVID. Both unvaccinated and vaccinated can carry and transmit COVID according to the latest body of knowledge. And you can get COVID whether you’ve been vaccinated or not.

On the upside, only about 1% of the population is at great potential risk and those at greatest risk fall into known high risk groups. Getting and recovering from COVID naturally is still the best case scenario for more than 99% of the population, vaccine or no vaccine. And forcing 99% into vaccine compliance to accommodate 1% is “undemocratic”, to put it charitably.

Vaccines reduce the likelihood of infection and drastically reduce the odds of serious illness.

"natural immunity" provides less robust immunity than the COVID vaccines.

You are also completely off-base when you say only 1% is at great potential risk.

It needs to be added death is not the only bad outcome.

This notion that forcing vaccination is "undemocratic" flies in the face of history. Smallpox eliminated and polio largely so via vaccination mandates.

If you’re talking about “worldwide” statistics, the number is slightly higher. Around 2%. In the US, it’s about 1%.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

That data does not say or imply that "only" 1% are AT RISK.

also, it can't be said often enough, if the only statistic you pay attention to is mortality, you are way underestimating the impact of this disease.

The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.

You really need to read up on Covid, long covid is not merely being uncomfortable. A forum member (well-known developer) spent months in the hospital and even six months later nowhere near 100%. I daresay if you ask him, he will tell you that what he suffered is something far far worse than being uncomfortable.

A significant percentage of those that become symptomatic have long-term consequences.

Even if fewer than one percent of covid-positive people have died that does not mean only 1% are at risk. Either you don't know what "at risk" means or you are misinformed.

I know I won't convince you...you have heard this all before. I say this for those that might read what you post and mistake it for the truth.

espiegel123

@NeuM said:

@Simon said:

@NeuM said:
it's absurd that governments worldwide have overreacted in such a hysterical and anti-science fashion.

Why do you think they are doing that?

Both left wing and right wing governments around the world are supporting vaccination, masks and lockdowns.

Yes, and the science AND the math doesn't support any of it, EXCEPT for those in the 1-2% of all people who are at serious personal risk if they are unvaccinated and if they do not take prudent measures to protect themselves.

Except the overwhelming consensus among public health experts and epidemiologists disagree with you. Yes, you can pick a handful of outliers at odds with that consensus but that does not change the consensus view....oh and those outkiers have been consistently wrong in their predictions,

JohnnyGoodyear

@Simon said:

@NeuM said:
The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.

You may not be worried about it but I am. I don't want either :-)

I don't think that being in hospital with COVID is simply a matter of being "uncomfortable". Sitting on the sofa with badly arranged cushions is being uncomfortable. Being in hospital on a ventilator is more like torture.

Here are step-by-step details of what COVID does to your body:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-31/how-covid-delta-kills-patients-virus/100335290

It 'aint nice folks! Stay safe :-)

knewspeak

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@knewspeak said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@LinearLineman said:
@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr, you are making perfect sense, IMO. I disagree with our respected colleague @NeuM. Last numbers I heard were that the vaccines were about 67% effective against Delta. Also, the immunity apparently deteriorates over time hence the boosters being made available in the US. So your 600 attendees have a 1 in 3 chance of contracting it if contact is made. asymptotically, perhaps, but still
really infectious to take home to the kiddies. Bah. The Age of Idiocy is well upon us now. Have you heard about the Delta+ variant?

Now let’s talk about Afghanistan to take our minds off Covid,

LL, If you endorse those quoted statistics, how might you characterize the "unmasked ball" (the gigantic birthday party) attended by possibly hundreds of maskless individuals?

What is this maskless ball of which you speak? Certainly, you aren't speaking of an event attended only by fully-vaccinated people who had all were COVID negative> @knewspeak said:

The vaccines don’t stop the spread, which means they will continue to mutate…endemic.

"vaccines don't stop the spread" is a misleading statement. It implies something that isn't true.

While it is true that if you are vaccinated AND become infected that it is possible for you to infect someone else. This is true of all vaccines...even those like the smallpox and polio vaccines that have more or less eliminated those diseases.

Vaccines (including the COVID vaccines) dramatically reduce spreading by making it MUCH less likely that someone will become infected in the first place. Additionally, if you do become infected while vaccinated, you are infectious for reduced period of time.

So, vaccinated people are much less likely to spread the disease when there is a large pool of infected people. And if everyone were vaccinated, the virus would spread much less than if everyone were vaccinated.

What I stated is perfectly true, nothing misleading. You then go on to agree. Vaccination will save lives, but won’t stop the virus spreading nor mutating, infant could cause them to mutate in more deadlier resilient forms, this is the risk. The genetic arms race.

Vaccination reduces spreading dramatically. Your statement implies otherwise.

Reducing spread (which vaccination does when widely adopted) also reduces mutations.

Will vaccination by itself eliminate the disease entirely, no. Global vaccination will dramatically reduce emergence of new mutations.

The vaccines are not a cure. They are a therapy to reduce the recovery time after contracting COVID. Both unvaccinated and vaccinated can carry and transmit COVID according to the latest body of knowledge. And you can get COVID whether you’ve been vaccinated or not.

On the upside, only about 1% of the population is at great potential risk and those at greatest risk fall into known high risk groups. Getting and recovering from COVID naturally is still the best case scenario for more than 99% of the population, vaccine or no vaccine. And forcing 99% into vaccine compliance to accommodate 1% is “undemocratic”, to put it charitably.

Vaccines reduce the likelihood of infection and drastically reduce the odds of serious illness.

"natural immunity" provides less robust immunity than the COVID vaccines.

You are also completely off-base when you say only 1% is at great potential risk.

It needs to be added death is not the only bad outcome.

This notion that forcing vaccination is "undemocratic" flies in the face of history. Smallpox eliminated and polio largely so via vaccination mandates.

If you’re talking about “worldwide” statistics, the number is slightly higher. Around 2%. In the US, it’s about 1%.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

That data does not say or imply that "only" 1% are AT RISK.

also, it can't be said often enough, if the only statistic you pay attention to is mortality, you are way underestimating the impact of this disease.

The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.

You really need to read up on Covid, long covid is not merely being uncomfortable. A forum member (well-known developer) spent months in the hospital and even six months later nowhere near 100%. I daresay if you ask him, he will tell you that what he suffered is something far far worse than being uncomfortable.

A significant percentage of those that become symptomatic have long-term consequences.

Even if fewer than one percent of covid-positive people have died that does not mean only 1% are at risk. Either you don't know what "at risk" means or you are misinformed.

I know I won't convince you...you have heard this all before. I say this for those that might read what you post and mistake it for the truth.

The full range of long Covid could affect between 10 to 30% with various side effects, which can be really varied some of which can be really horrible, these can affect any age group also.

espiegel123

@knewspeak said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@knewspeak said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@LinearLineman said:
@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr, you are making perfect sense, IMO. I disagree with our respected colleague @NeuM. Last numbers I heard were that the vaccines were about 67% effective against Delta. Also, the immunity apparently deteriorates over time hence the boosters being made available in the US. So your 600 attendees have a 1 in 3 chance of contracting it if contact is made. asymptotically, perhaps, but still
really infectious to take home to the kiddies. Bah. The Age of Idiocy is well upon us now. Have you heard about the Delta+ variant?

Now let’s talk about Afghanistan to take our minds off Covid,

LL, If you endorse those quoted statistics, how might you characterize the "unmasked ball" (the gigantic birthday party) attended by possibly hundreds of maskless individuals?

What is this maskless ball of which you speak? Certainly, you aren't speaking of an event attended only by fully-vaccinated people who had all were COVID negative> @knewspeak said:

The vaccines don’t stop the spread, which means they will continue to mutate…endemic.

"vaccines don't stop the spread" is a misleading statement. It implies something that isn't true.

While it is true that if you are vaccinated AND become infected that it is possible for you to infect someone else. This is true of all vaccines...even those like the smallpox and polio vaccines that have more or less eliminated those diseases.

Vaccines (including the COVID vaccines) dramatically reduce spreading by making it MUCH less likely that someone will become infected in the first place. Additionally, if you do become infected while vaccinated, you are infectious for reduced period of time.

So, vaccinated people are much less likely to spread the disease when there is a large pool of infected people. And if everyone were vaccinated, the virus would spread much less than if everyone were vaccinated.

What I stated is perfectly true, nothing misleading. You then go on to agree. Vaccination will save lives, but won’t stop the virus spreading nor mutating, infant could cause them to mutate in more deadlier resilient forms, this is the risk. The genetic arms race.

Vaccination reduces spreading dramatically. Your statement implies otherwise.

Reducing spread (which vaccination does when widely adopted) also reduces mutations.

Will vaccination by itself eliminate the disease entirely, no. Global vaccination will dramatically reduce emergence of new mutations.

The vaccines are not a cure. They are a therapy to reduce the recovery time after contracting COVID. Both unvaccinated and vaccinated can carry and transmit COVID according to the latest body of knowledge. And you can get COVID whether you’ve been vaccinated or not.

On the upside, only about 1% of the population is at great potential risk and those at greatest risk fall into known high risk groups. Getting and recovering from COVID naturally is still the best case scenario for more than 99% of the population, vaccine or no vaccine. And forcing 99% into vaccine compliance to accommodate 1% is “undemocratic”, to put it charitably.

Vaccines reduce the likelihood of infection and drastically reduce the odds of serious illness.

"natural immunity" provides less robust immunity than the COVID vaccines.

You are also completely off-base when you say only 1% is at great potential risk.

It needs to be added death is not the only bad outcome.

This notion that forcing vaccination is "undemocratic" flies in the face of history. Smallpox eliminated and polio largely so via vaccination mandates.

If you’re talking about “worldwide” statistics, the number is slightly higher. Around 2%. In the US, it’s about 1%.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

That data does not say or imply that "only" 1% are AT RISK.

also, it can't be said often enough, if the only statistic you pay attention to is mortality, you are way underestimating the impact of this disease.

The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.

You really need to read up on Covid, long covid is not merely being uncomfortable. A forum member (well-known developer) spent months in the hospital and even six months later nowhere near 100%. I daresay if you ask him, he will tell you that what he suffered is something far far worse than being uncomfortable.

A significant percentage of those that become symptomatic have long-term consequences.

Even if fewer than one percent of covid-positive people have died that does not mean only 1% are at risk. Either you don't know what "at risk" means or you are misinformed.

I know I won't convince you...you have heard this all before. I say this for those that might read what you post and mistake it for the truth.

The full range of long Covid could affect between 10 to 30% with various side effects, which can be really varied some of which can be really horrible, these can affect any age group also.

Not to mention that long-term effects are not known -- some of the medium-term effects on people with long COVID have some researchers concerned about long-term vulnerabilities caused by the infection even in seemingly healthy people. This is one reason why public health people are concerned about kids getting it.

The people that have downlplayed the illness have generally been consistently wrong in their predictions -- and seem to double down on their early analysis rather than adjusting their take as new information emerges.

NeuM

@JeffChasteen said:

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

@NeuM said:

Everything should be fine. If that massively attended birthday with almost no one following their own rules didn’t harm anyone, what real level of risk could a bunch of fully vaccinated people face at a business?

We’re not going to die, because we’re vaxxed and healthy enough to work. I’m more concerned about us spreading the virus out into the world, onto people more vulnerable than we are. If someone dies from our spreader event we may never even know about it.

Plus having to listen to top management speechify is the worst part of the job. That could be skewing my perspective.

You’re arguing with a libertarian about the idiocy of long-winded blathering.
Don’t forget...
they love them some John Galt.

You’re right, though.

John Galt was a character from an Ayn Rand novel. Ayn Rand was not a Libertarian. Please learn a bit about something before applying the broad brush attacks.

NeuM

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@knewspeak said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@LinearLineman said:
@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr, you are making perfect sense, IMO. I disagree with our respected colleague @NeuM. Last numbers I heard were that the vaccines were about 67% effective against Delta. Also, the immunity apparently deteriorates over time hence the boosters being made available in the US. So your 600 attendees have a 1 in 3 chance of contracting it if contact is made. asymptotically, perhaps, but still
really infectious to take home to the kiddies. Bah. The Age of Idiocy is well upon us now. Have you heard about the Delta+ variant?

Now let’s talk about Afghanistan to take our minds off Covid,

LL, If you endorse those quoted statistics, how might you characterize the "unmasked ball" (the gigantic birthday party) attended by possibly hundreds of maskless individuals?

What is this maskless ball of which you speak? Certainly, you aren't speaking of an event attended only by fully-vaccinated people who had all were COVID negative> @knewspeak said:

The vaccines don’t stop the spread, which means they will continue to mutate…endemic.

"vaccines don't stop the spread" is a misleading statement. It implies something that isn't true.

While it is true that if you are vaccinated AND become infected that it is possible for you to infect someone else. This is true of all vaccines...even those like the smallpox and polio vaccines that have more or less eliminated those diseases.

Vaccines (including the COVID vaccines) dramatically reduce spreading by making it MUCH less likely that someone will become infected in the first place. Additionally, if you do become infected while vaccinated, you are infectious for reduced period of time.

So, vaccinated people are much less likely to spread the disease when there is a large pool of infected people. And if everyone were vaccinated, the virus would spread much less than if everyone were vaccinated.

What I stated is perfectly true, nothing misleading. You then go on to agree. Vaccination will save lives, but won’t stop the virus spreading nor mutating, infant could cause them to mutate in more deadlier resilient forms, this is the risk. The genetic arms race.

Vaccination reduces spreading dramatically. Your statement implies otherwise.

Reducing spread (which vaccination does when widely adopted) also reduces mutations.

Will vaccination by itself eliminate the disease entirely, no. Global vaccination will dramatically reduce emergence of new mutations.

The vaccines are not a cure. They are a therapy to reduce the recovery time after contracting COVID. Both unvaccinated and vaccinated can carry and transmit COVID according to the latest body of knowledge. And you can get COVID whether you’ve been vaccinated or not.

On the upside, only about 1% of the population is at great potential risk and those at greatest risk fall into known high risk groups. Getting and recovering from COVID naturally is still the best case scenario for more than 99% of the population, vaccine or no vaccine. And forcing 99% into vaccine compliance to accommodate 1% is “undemocratic”, to put it charitably.

Vaccines reduce the likelihood of infection and drastically reduce the odds of serious illness.

"natural immunity" provides less robust immunity than the COVID vaccines.

You are also completely off-base when you say only 1% is at great potential risk.

It needs to be added death is not the only bad outcome.

This notion that forcing vaccination is "undemocratic" flies in the face of history. Smallpox eliminated and polio largely so via vaccination mandates.

If you’re talking about “worldwide” statistics, the number is slightly higher. Around 2%. In the US, it’s about 1%.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

That data does not say or imply that "only" 1% are AT RISK.

also, it can't be said often enough, if the only statistic you pay attention to is mortality, you are way underestimating the impact of this disease.

The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.

You really need to read up on Covid, long covid is not merely being uncomfortable. A forum member (well-known developer) spent months in the hospital and even six months later nowhere near 100%. I daresay if you ask him, he will tell you that what he suffered is something far far worse than being uncomfortable.

A significant percentage of those that become symptomatic have long-term consequences.

Even if fewer than one percent of covid-positive people have died that does not mean only 1% are at risk. Either you don't know what "at risk" means or you are misinformed.

I know I won't convince you...you have heard this all before. I say this for those that might read what you post and mistake it for the truth.

Although I was later vaccinated, I’ve been sick since late 2019 from possible side effects of COVID (my doctor still is unable to definitively say what it is) so you really have no idea what the hell you’re talking about.

And I maintain that my personal discomfort is not reason enough to shut down a city, a state or a country. 98-99% percent of the entire human population will not die from COVID and they need to be afforded the simple human dignity to decide for themselves how they want to live their lives.

So please stop making these moronic assumptions about me and what I believe.

Also, if the folks who seem to make the most noise about others getting vaccinated or wearing masks were to really demand answers and accountability from China over this possibly lab engineered virus***, then they’d be doing something useful!

Demand those answers and demand international access to the lab in Wuhan.

***(Even Dr. Fauci has finally admitted it might have been engineered in the lab in Wuhan, this is not wild conspiracy speculation.)

Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

@JeffChasteen said:

You’re arguing with a libertarian about the idiocy of long-winded blathering.
Don’t forget...
they love them some John Galt.

You’re right, though.

I’m not arguing!

But seriously, I just wanted to vent about my bosses making us all come in and mix our germs when online meetings are so obviously superior, not start a flame war. Why do we all need to be in the same room to have a “meeting”?

LinearLineman

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@knewspeak said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@LinearLineman said:
@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr, you are making perfect sense, IMO. I disagree with our respected colleague @NeuM. Last numbers I heard were that the vaccines were about 67% effective against Delta. Also, the immunity apparently deteriorates over time hence the boosters being made available in the US. So your 600 attendees have a 1 in 3 chance of contracting it if contact is made. asymptotically, perhaps, but still
really infectious to take home to the kiddies. Bah. The Age of Idiocy is well upon us now. Have you heard about the Delta+ variant?

Now let’s talk about Afghanistan to take our minds off Covid,

LL, If you endorse those quoted statistics, how might you characterize the "unmasked ball" (the gigantic birthday party) attended by possibly hundreds of maskless individuals?

What is this maskless ball of which you speak? Certainly, you aren't speaking of an event attended only by fully-vaccinated people who had all were COVID negative> @knewspeak said:

The vaccines don’t stop the spread, which means they will continue to mutate…endemic.

"vaccines don't stop the spread" is a misleading statement. It implies something that isn't true.

While it is true that if you are vaccinated AND become infected that it is possible for you to infect someone else. This is true of all vaccines...even those like the smallpox and polio vaccines that have more or less eliminated those diseases.

Vaccines (including the COVID vaccines) dramatically reduce spreading by making it MUCH less likely that someone will become infected in the first place. Additionally, if you do become infected while vaccinated, you are infectious for reduced period of time.

So, vaccinated people are much less likely to spread the disease when there is a large pool of infected people. And if everyone were vaccinated, the virus would spread much less than if everyone were vaccinated.

What I stated is perfectly true, nothing misleading. You then go on to agree. Vaccination will save lives, but won’t stop the virus spreading nor mutating, infant could cause them to mutate in more deadlier resilient forms, this is the risk. The genetic arms race.

Vaccination reduces spreading dramatically. Your statement implies otherwise.

Reducing spread (which vaccination does when widely adopted) also reduces mutations.

Will vaccination by itself eliminate the disease entirely, no. Global vaccination will dramatically reduce emergence of new mutations.

The vaccines are not a cure. They are a therapy to reduce the recovery time after contracting COVID. Both unvaccinated and vaccinated can carry and transmit COVID according to the latest body of knowledge. And you can get COVID whether you’ve been vaccinated or not.

On the upside, only about 1% of the population is at great potential risk and those at greatest risk fall into known high risk groups. Getting and recovering from COVID naturally is still the best case scenario for more than 99% of the population, vaccine or no vaccine. And forcing 99% into vaccine compliance to accommodate 1% is “undemocratic”, to put it charitably.

Vaccines reduce the likelihood of infection and drastically reduce the odds of serious illness.

"natural immunity" provides less robust immunity than the COVID vaccines.

You are also completely off-base when you say only 1% is at great potential risk.

It needs to be added death is not the only bad outcome.

This notion that forcing vaccination is "undemocratic" flies in the face of history. Smallpox eliminated and polio largely so via vaccination mandates.

If you’re talking about “worldwide” statistics, the number is slightly higher. Around 2%. In the US, it’s about 1%.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

That data does not say or imply that "only" 1% are AT RISK.

also, it can't be said often enough, if the only statistic you pay attention to is mortality, you are way underestimating the impact of this disease.

The only thing that matters is whether a person is going to live. No one is worried about being uncomfortable versus being dead.

You really need to read up on Covid, long covid is not merely being uncomfortable. A forum member (well-known developer) spent months in the hospital and even six months later nowhere near 100%. I daresay if you ask him, he will tell you that what he suffered is something far far worse than being uncomfortable.

A significant percentage of those that become symptomatic have long-term consequences.

Even if fewer than one percent of covid-positive people have died that does not mean only 1% are at risk. Either you don't know what "at risk" means or you are misinformed.

I know I won't convince you...you have heard this all before. I say this for those that might read what you post and mistake it for the truth.

Although I was later vaccinated, I’ve been sick since late 2019 from possible side effects of COVID (my doctor still is unable to definitively say what it is) so you really have no idea what the hell you’re talking about.

And I maintain that my personal discomfort is not reason enough to shut down a city, a state or a country. 98-99% percent of the entire human population will not die from COVID and they need to be afforded the simple human dignity to decide for themselves how they want to live their lives.

So please stop making these moronic assumptions about me and what I believe.

Also, if the folks who seem to make the most noise about others getting vaccinated or wearing masks were to really demand answers and accountability from China over this possibly lab engineered virus***, then they’d be doing something useful!

Demand those answers and demand international access to the lab in Wuhan.

***(Even Dr. Fauci has finally admitted it might have been engineered in the lab in Wuhan, this is not wild conspiracy speculation.)

Wow, sorry to hear about your long Covid issues. I would wear a mask as long as needed and get every vaccination to try to have prevented your infection as well as anyone else’s. I don’t think you have to shut down businesses to do that, though. And I think Fauci said it might have escaped from the Wuhan lab, not that it was engineered.

The value of maximal vaccinations is that it slows and, hopefully, ends the constant mutation of the virus. So long as there are millions of infections