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Apartheid is Fascism ( or: your crypto won’t save you when the jackboots come-a-marching).

1568101115

Comments

  • edited December 2021

    @LinearLineman said:
    Agreed! I’ve noticed the lack of political discussion in the past weeks. Maybe it was for the best. Have a peaceful weekend 🙏🏻

    Peaceful? It's the big Bathurst weekend - V8s on The Mountain. We're on lap 70 of 161. :smiley:

  • @Simon said:

    @LinearLineman said:
    Agreed! I’ve noticed the lack of political discussion in the past weeks. Maybe it was for the best. Have a peaceful weekend 🙏🏻

    Peaceful? It's the big Bathurst weekend - V8s on The Mountain. We're on lap 70 of 161. :smiley:

    Haha, we never have all the information to draw a correct conclusion.

  • edited December 2021

    I haven't read many of the posts in this thread but i will because this topic is very interesting to me. I find it a tragedy that many on the alt right side think that they are the smart ones, the unmanipulated ones, the undeluded ones. It's like they walked out of the matrix and into an even worse matrix. I've been spending quite a bit of time in crypto telegram groups recently too, and while they can often be amusing, it is shocking to see the underlying racism, sexism, antivax, antimask etc sentiment that is rife in some areas of that space.

    In terms of what's been happening in the US and the west in general (though the post-war 20th century was really led by America, both in soft power and in hard power) there have been no greater eye openers for me than:

    Adam Curtis documentaries (freely available on YouTube). Particularly The Century of the Self, Hypernormalisation and Can't Get You Out of My Head

    The book American Rule by Jared Yates Sexton - this is basically a very readable 'dark history' of America. If you search his name and 'American Rule lectures' on YouTube you csn also find aome video talks he did on some of the stuff from the book, but they are really no substitute for it.

    Anything by Ivan Illich, although he is much better at criticising the status quo than suggesting solutions.

    The Ascent of Humanity by Charles Eisenstein, which is similar in concept to Illich but on a much broader level and a lot more readable.

    Any podcast discussions with Daniel Schmachtenberger, in my view one of the smartest thinkers alive today. He is very enlightening on the pitfalls of applying evolutionary thinking to modern man and the topic of existential risks of the developed world.

    It is also important to dig into a bit of economics and philosophy to understand the errors (actually more likely deliberate lies in my opinion) in Neoliberal free market economics, particularly Austrian economics. Economics is generally or perhaps even always political ideology masquerading as science.

  • @Gavinski, if you haven’t read them…. Sapiens and Homo Deus by Yuval Harari. Much of them available as audio on YouTube. He nails the foundation of sand all our beliefs are built upon.

  • edited December 2021

    @Gavinski said:
    I haven't read many of the posts in this thread but i will because this topic is very interesting to me. I find it a tragedy that many on the alt right side think that they are the smart ones, the unmanipulated ones, the undeluded ones. It's like they walked out of the matrix and into an even worse matrix. I've been spending quite a bit of time in crypto telegram groups recently too, and while they can often be amusing, it is shocking to see the underlying racism, sexism, antivax, antimask etc sentiment that is rife in some areas of that space.

    In terms of what's been happening in the US and the west in general (though the post-war 20th century was really led by America, both in soft power and in hard power) there have been no greater eye openers for me than:

    Adam Curtis documentaries (freely available on YouTube). Particularly The Century of the Self, Hypernormalisation and Can't Get You Out of My Head

    The book American Rule by Jared Yates Sexton - this is basically a very readable 'dark history' of America. If you search his name and 'American Rule lectures' on YouTube you csn also find aome video talks he did on some of the stuff from the book, but they are really no substitute for it.

    Anything by Ivan Illich, although he is much better at criticising the status quo than suggesting solutions.

    The Ascent of Humanity by Charles Eisenstein, which is similar in concept to Illich but on a much broader level and a lot more readable.

    Any podcast discussions with Daniel Schmachtenberger, in my view one of the smartest thinkers alive today. He is very enlightening on the pitfalls of applying evolutionary thinking to modern man and the topic of existential risks of the developed world.

    It is also important to dig into a bit of economics and philosophy to understand the errors (actually more likely deliberate lies in my opinion) in Neoliberal free market economics, particularly Austrian economics. Economics is generally or perhaps even always political ideology masquerading as science.

    Frankly, I don’t like people who identify as “alt-right.” I find the whole ”movement” childish and uninteresting. And I think that ignorance and youth probably plays a big part of the whole thing. It’s like the mirror image of radical Leftism.

    Having said that, the crass and baiting comments you come across in your study of crypto are common in stock trading groups also. The “kids” like to lob insults at each other. It’s like hazing for keyboard warriors. Pay no attention to the noise because they just like to intimidate each other.

    And I’d like to recommend a few crypto podcasts to you, which are mostly factual but also full of opinions on current events:

    “The Bitcoin Standard Podcast” with Dr. Saifedean Ammous

    and occasionally, “The Tim Ferris Show” with Tim Ferris.

  • @Simon said:

    @NeuM said:
    If President Trump "really won" he'd be President. That Joe Biden is President is not a point of argument.

    I am guessing that you do think Trump was cheated by electoral fraud but you don't want to open that can of worms on this thread. That's ok. You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

    My take on it is that if Trump was cheated it would be the biggest political news story since Watergate. Any reporter, left or right wing, would give anything to get that story.

    Watergate made reporters Woodward and Bernstein international news superstars. They were made for life financially and career-wise as a result of that story.

    So, the Trump fraud story would be pure news gold. But nobody has presented the story. Nobody has uncovered wrong doings. And there have been many court cases that have failed to establish fraud. They didn't even get close.

    Why? Because it didn't happen.

    If it did, the right wing media would be all over it. Naming names. Detailing the cheating. Demanding people go to jail.

    But they are not. Because it simply didn't happen.

    Thanks for calling him out on his weasel words.

    Evidently, someone doesn’t even have the courage of his idiotic convictions.

  • @JeffChasteen said:

    @Simon said:

    @NeuM said:
    If President Trump "really won" he'd be President. That Joe Biden is President is not a point of argument.

    I am guessing that you do think Trump was cheated by electoral fraud but you don't want to open that can of worms on this thread. That's ok. You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

    My take on it is that if Trump was cheated it would be the biggest political news story since Watergate. Any reporter, left or right wing, would give anything to get that story.

    Watergate made reporters Woodward and Bernstein international news superstars. They were made for life financially and career-wise as a result of that story.

    So, the Trump fraud story would be pure news gold. But nobody has presented the story. Nobody has uncovered wrong doings. And there have been many court cases that have failed to establish fraud. They didn't even get close.

    Why? Because it didn't happen.

    If it did, the right wing media would be all over it. Naming names. Detailing the cheating. Demanding people go to jail.

    But they are not. Because it simply didn't happen.

    Thanks for calling him out on his weasel words.

    Evidently, someone doesn’t even have the courage of his idiotic convictions.

    I thought ad hominem attacks were off-limits here.

  • edited December 2021

    @MuchHustle said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:

    @Eschatone said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:
    Well, that's needlessly provocative headline doesn't serve this excellent piece of music at all! (Despite the fact that I agree, probably, with the sentiment.)

    I hit play and forgot I did and was digging this and looking at my various playlists trying to find out what it was! Was this the new Microphones? Something from my long-gestating Ambient playlist on apple music? Anyway, it's great. Would love to hear more.

    I guess I was born too late to exist in an era when saying the obvious (fascism is bad) wasn’t controversial. My grandfather grew up in such a time, when he helped save America from fascists in ww2.

    We’ve taken political correctness WAY too far when we start worrying about offending the sensibilities of fascists…far too many Americans have lost their lives protecting the country from their cruelty and abuses, for us to callously disregard their sacrifice by coddling such an objectively inhumane ideology.

    That said, great music btw and don’t ever let anyone dissuade you from expressing your morality through your art.

    You mistake my sarcasm! I'm firmly in the anti-fascist camp, though it's weird to think there are people who are on the fence about that!

    Like many you are probably not aware of just how fascist the anti-fascist movement (or Antifa) really is at its core and as an inevitable outcome of their misguided beliefs. Its part of a long process of subversive alterations of society’s language. For example most believe the dangerous false dichotomy that the poles of the “Political Scale” range from “Communism” (left) <-to-> “Fascism” (right), with their only supportive evidence being the that pre-WWII there was opposition and conflict between Hitler’s Nazi Socialist Party and the Communist Bolsheviks which was framed by western subversive intellectuals as yet another brick in their Hegelian Dialectic trap, along with Moral Relativism, that has the effect of ensnaring one, whether “coming” or “going” (left or right), in an underlying collectivist type system of centralized State control, knowing that once total control over “The Means of Production” is established “ownership” is an inconsequential detail that powerless and thus politically meaningless. Since Communism is defined as State ownership (which has implied control) over the means of production and Fascism is defined as State control, but private ownership, of the means of production the true poles of the Political scale places: “State” -Left- (representing Collectivism premise) <-to-> “Anarchy -Right- (Individualism). These polar positions are expressed, Ethically by: Left = “Common Good” by force (actual violence or the threat thereof) Right = “Individual Good” by voluntary consent.

    In conclusion, given the fact that just over the previous century over 100,000,000 (100’s of millions!) people were slaughtered (not counting the billion plus that only suffered from torture, famine, and unimaginable loss) in the name of Communism and a quarter that under Fascism, etc.. Artist need to fucking stick to art and stop dabbling into politics, they don’t understand, in order to be fashionable or just “sarcastic” as if it were funny or even witty, when in reality, to one awake, they see yet another copy of a copy of a copy pretending to be original. I apologize but the time for being quiet and allowing this shit to go by, unchecked, is over and should’ve never started. These ideas (mental viruses) have tragic consequences when the infection takes hold and spreads, as we are now witnessing (at least to those that know what it is they are seeing). I don’t mean covid or flu hype but the larger cultural war that is raging. Thank you for considering my request.

    With all due respect,
    fuck all of that noise.

  • Can we all agree that Libertarianism is nothing more than fantasy unicorn-land
    for assholes?

  • @NeuM said:

    @JeffChasteen said:

    @Simon said:

    @NeuM said:
    If President Trump "really won" he'd be President. That Joe Biden is President is not a point of argument.

    I am guessing that you do think Trump was cheated by electoral fraud but you don't want to open that can of worms on this thread. That's ok. You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

    My take on it is that if Trump was cheated it would be the biggest political news story since Watergate. Any reporter, left or right wing, would give anything to get that story.

    Watergate made reporters Woodward and Bernstein international news superstars. They were made for life financially and career-wise as a result of that story.

    So, the Trump fraud story would be pure news gold. But nobody has presented the story. Nobody has uncovered wrong doings. And there have been many court cases that have failed to establish fraud. They didn't even get close.

    Why? Because it didn't happen.

    If it did, the right wing media would be all over it. Naming names. Detailing the cheating. Demanding people go to jail.

    But they are not. Because it simply didn't happen.

    Thanks for calling him out on his weasel words.

    Evidently, someone doesn’t even have the courage of his idiotic convictions.

    I thought ad hominem attacks were off-limits here.

    I wasn’t speaking to you, Mr Galt.

  • @LinearLineman said:

    @Simon said:

    @LinearLineman said:
    Agreed! I’ve noticed the lack of political discussion in the past weeks. Maybe it was for the best. Have a peaceful weekend 🙏🏻

    Peaceful? It's the big Bathurst weekend - V8s on The Mountain. We're on lap 70 of 161. :smiley:

    Haha, we never have all the information to draw a correct conclusion.

    They are having a safety car period because there is an echidna on the race track. You don't get that in NASCAR... :smiley:

  • @JeffChasteen said:
    Can we all agree that Libertarianism is nothing more than fantasy unicorn-land
    for assholes?

    No.

  • @NeuM said:

    @JeffChasteen said:
    Can we all agree that Libertarianism is nothing more than fantasy unicorn-land
    for assholes?

    No.

    What a surprise.

  • @JeffChasteen said:

    @NeuM said:

    @JeffChasteen said:

    @Simon said:

    @NeuM said:
    If President Trump "really won" he'd be President. That Joe Biden is President is not a point of argument.

    I am guessing that you do think Trump was cheated by electoral fraud but you don't want to open that can of worms on this thread. That's ok. You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

    My take on it is that if Trump was cheated it would be the biggest political news story since Watergate. Any reporter, left or right wing, would give anything to get that story.

    Watergate made reporters Woodward and Bernstein international news superstars. They were made for life financially and career-wise as a result of that story.

    So, the Trump fraud story would be pure news gold. But nobody has presented the story. Nobody has uncovered wrong doings. And there have been many court cases that have failed to establish fraud. They didn't even get close.

    Why? Because it didn't happen.

    If it did, the right wing media would be all over it. Naming names. Detailing the cheating. Demanding people go to jail.

    But they are not. Because it simply didn't happen.

    Thanks for calling him out on his weasel words.

    Evidently, someone doesn’t even have the courage of his idiotic convictions.

    I thought ad hominem attacks were off-limits here.

    I wasn’t speaking to you, Mr Galt.

    Jeff, I’m not sure what the problem is here, but I have no interest in communicating with someone who is deliberately abusive.

  • @Simon said:

    @knewspeak said:
    They’re obsolete aside from ornamental display, in the brave, new, world.

    Except they are not.

    They actually pass laws that we all have to live by.

    Who "is and is not" elected has consequences for all of us.

    As the person representing the Executive branch, Presidents are obligated to uphold the laws of the US, which President Trump successfully did to a far greater degree than any other President in modern history. Doing that was a direct threat to the corrupt and their donors in Washington.

  • @NeuM said:

    @Simon said:

    @knewspeak said:
    They’re obsolete aside from ornamental display, in the brave, new, world.

    Except they are not.

    They actually pass laws that we all have to live by.

    Who "is and is not" elected has consequences for all of us.

    As the person representing the Executive branch, Presidents are obligated to uphold the laws of the US, which President Trump successfully did to a far greater degree than any other President in modern history. Doing that was a direct threat to the corrupt and their donors in Washington.

    What?

  • edited December 2021

    @Simon said:

    @NeuM said:
    If President Trump "really won" he'd be President. That Joe Biden is President is not a point of argument.

    I am guessing that you do think Trump was cheated by electoral fraud but you don't want to open that can of worms on this thread. That's ok. You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

    My take on it is that if Trump was cheated it would be the biggest political news story since Watergate. Any reporter, left or right wing, would give anything to get that story.

    Watergate made reporters Woodward and Bernstein international news superstars. They were made for life financially and career-wise as a result of that story.

    So, the Trump fraud story would be pure news gold. But nobody has presented the story. Nobody has uncovered wrong doings. And there have been many court cases that have failed to establish fraud. They didn't even get close.

    Why? Because it didn't happen.

    If it did, the right wing media would be all over it. Naming names. Detailing the cheating. Demanding people go to jail.

    But they are not. Because it simply didn't happen.

    OK, since you asked nicely…

    My answer is there’s insufficient evidence either way to prove conclusively if there was cheating or not. Because many of the contested States have thrown up barriers to comprehensive and independently verifiable audits, we will likely never know. That’s why the only thing that is unarguable is that Joe Biden is currently President and Donald Trump is not.

    Further, even if there was provable cheating there’s no remedy in our Constitution for such a thing. So, it is what it is.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-happens-if-the-election-was-a-fraud-the-constitution-doesnt-say/

    And in the event the Federal government or the President should ever become tyrannical, there are remedies available to the States to dissolve the Federal government (without bloodshed or violence). I’m not assuming this is what will happen any time soon by the way, despite the breathtaking constitutional violations of the current and several former Presidents. Were you aware we have today members of Congress threatening Supreme Court justices if they decide against Roe v Wade? That should be grounds for impeachment and removal from Congress. Such is the state of things today.

  • @NeuM said:

    @Simon said:

    @NeuM said:
    If President Trump "really won" he'd be President. That Joe Biden is President is not a point of argument.

    I am guessing that you do think Trump was cheated by electoral fraud but you don't want to open that can of worms on this thread. That's ok. You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

    My take on it is that if Trump was cheated it would be the biggest political news story since Watergate. Any reporter, left or right wing, would give anything to get that story.

    Watergate made reporters Woodward and Bernstein international news superstars. They were made for life financially and career-wise as a result of that story.

    So, the Trump fraud story would be pure news gold. But nobody has presented the story. Nobody has uncovered wrong doings. And there have been many court cases that have failed to establish fraud. They didn't even get close.

    Why? Because it didn't happen.

    If it did, the right wing media would be all over it. Naming names. Detailing the cheating. Demanding people go to jail.

    But they are not. Because it simply didn't happen.

    OK, since you asked nicely…

    My answer is there’s insufficient evidence either way to prove conclusively if there was cheating or not. Because many of the contested States have thrown up barriers to comprehensive and independently verifiable audits, we will likely never know. That’s why the only thing that is unarguable is that Joe Biden is currently President and Donald Trump is not.

    Further, even if there was provable cheating there’s no remedy in our Constitution for such a thing. So, it is what it is.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-happens-if-the-election-was-a-fraud-the-constitution-doesnt-say/

    And in the event the Federal government or the President should ever become tyrannical, there are remedies available to the States to dissolve the Federal government (without bloodshed or violence). I’m not assuming this is what will happen any time soon by the way, despite the breathtaking constitutional violations of the current and several former Presidents.

    You are making stuff up about audits. There has been zero evidence despite a large number of lawsuits to indicate irregularities that would have changed the election outcome...this includes lawsuits with GOP-appointed judges and audits with GOP controlled legislatures.

    You are voicing (though seemingly reluctant to share your own evaluation ) talking points of conspiracy theories popular on the right. The continued insinuation of significant irregularities favoring the Democratic Party is at odds reality.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @NeuM said:

    @Simon said:

    @NeuM said:
    If President Trump "really won" he'd be President. That Joe Biden is President is not a point of argument.

    I am guessing that you do think Trump was cheated by electoral fraud but you don't want to open that can of worms on this thread. That's ok. You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

    My take on it is that if Trump was cheated it would be the biggest political news story since Watergate. Any reporter, left or right wing, would give anything to get that story.

    Watergate made reporters Woodward and Bernstein international news superstars. They were made for life financially and career-wise as a result of that story.

    So, the Trump fraud story would be pure news gold. But nobody has presented the story. Nobody has uncovered wrong doings. And there have been many court cases that have failed to establish fraud. They didn't even get close.

    Why? Because it didn't happen.

    If it did, the right wing media would be all over it. Naming names. Detailing the cheating. Demanding people go to jail.

    But they are not. Because it simply didn't happen.

    OK, since you asked nicely…

    My answer is there’s insufficient evidence either way to prove conclusively if there was cheating or not. Because many of the contested States have thrown up barriers to comprehensive and independently verifiable audits, we will likely never know. That’s why the only thing that is unarguable is that Joe Biden is currently President and Donald Trump is not.

    Further, even if there was provable cheating there’s no remedy in our Constitution for such a thing. So, it is what it is.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-happens-if-the-election-was-a-fraud-the-constitution-doesnt-say/

    And in the event the Federal government or the President should ever become tyrannical, there are remedies available to the States to dissolve the Federal government (without bloodshed or violence). I’m not assuming this is what will happen any time soon by the way, despite the breathtaking constitutional violations of the current and several former Presidents.

    You are making stuff up about audits. There has been zero evidence despite a large number of lawsuits to indicate irregularities that would have changed the election outcome...this includes lawsuits with GOP-appointed judges and audits with GOP controlled legislatures.

    You are voicing (though seemingly reluctant to share your own evaluation ) talking points of conspiracy theories popular on the right. The continued insinuation of significant irregularities favoring the Democratic Party is at odds reality.

    Let’s review just a few of the conspiracy theories of the Left during the last administration:

    -“He’s a racist”
    -“He’s a white supremacist” (alternate: “He sides with the neo-Nazis”)
    -“He’s a Russian agent”
    -“He hates immigrants”
    -“He’s anti-woman”
    -“He’s anti-gay”
    -“He’s an anti-Semite”
    -“He’s mentally ill”
    -“He’s compromised by Russian ‘pee tapes’”
    -“His lawyer traveled to Russia to pay off hackers who broke into DNC computers”
    -“He had Russian money funneled to him through the NRA”
    -“He killed thousands of Americans because he did nothing to respond to COVID”
    -“He told Americans to inject themselves with bleach”
    -“He cheated on his taxes”
    -“He had a stroke/strokes which he was hiding from the public”
    -“He will refuse to leave the White House if he loses”
    -“He was not spied on by the intelligence agencies and he’s crazy for suggesting it”
    -“He told supporters to commit insurrection”

    All disproven or proven to be Left propaganda. And by the way, that last one is currently part of a highly partisan sham “investigation” which involves legal harassment of him and his associates by Democratic members of Congress. The same ones who lied about the proven fraudulent Steele dossier, by the way.

  • @NeuM said:

    @JeffChasteen said:

    @NeuM said:

    @JeffChasteen said:

    @Simon said:

    @NeuM said:
    If President Trump "really won" he'd be President. That Joe Biden is President is not a point of argument.

    I am guessing that you do think Trump was cheated by electoral fraud but you don't want to open that can of worms on this thread. That's ok. You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

    My take on it is that if Trump was cheated it would be the biggest political news story since Watergate. Any reporter, left or right wing, would give anything to get that story.

    Watergate made reporters Woodward and Bernstein international news superstars. They were made for life financially and career-wise as a result of that story.

    So, the Trump fraud story would be pure news gold. But nobody has presented the story. Nobody has uncovered wrong doings. And there have been many court cases that have failed to establish fraud. They didn't even get close.

    Why? Because it didn't happen.

    If it did, the right wing media would be all over it. Naming names. Detailing the cheating. Demanding people go to jail.

    But they are not. Because it simply didn't happen.

    Thanks for calling him out on his weasel words.

    Evidently, someone doesn’t even have the courage of his idiotic convictions.

    I thought ad hominem attacks were off-limits here.

    I wasn’t speaking to you, Mr Galt.

    Jeff, I’m not sure what the problem is here, but I have no interest in communicating with someone who is deliberately abusive.

    Yet, you continue to do so.
    Odd.

  • @JeffChasteen said:

    @NeuM said:

    @JeffChasteen said:

    @NeuM said:

    @JeffChasteen said:

    @Simon said:

    @NeuM said:
    If President Trump "really won" he'd be President. That Joe Biden is President is not a point of argument.

    I am guessing that you do think Trump was cheated by electoral fraud but you don't want to open that can of worms on this thread. That's ok. You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

    My take on it is that if Trump was cheated it would be the biggest political news story since Watergate. Any reporter, left or right wing, would give anything to get that story.

    Watergate made reporters Woodward and Bernstein international news superstars. They were made for life financially and career-wise as a result of that story.

    So, the Trump fraud story would be pure news gold. But nobody has presented the story. Nobody has uncovered wrong doings. And there have been many court cases that have failed to establish fraud. They didn't even get close.

    Why? Because it didn't happen.

    If it did, the right wing media would be all over it. Naming names. Detailing the cheating. Demanding people go to jail.

    But they are not. Because it simply didn't happen.

    Thanks for calling him out on his weasel words.

    Evidently, someone doesn’t even have the courage of his idiotic convictions.

    I thought ad hominem attacks were off-limits here.

    I wasn’t speaking to you, Mr Galt.

    Jeff, I’m not sure what the problem is here, but I have no interest in communicating with someone who is deliberately abusive.

    Yet, you continue to do so.
    Odd.

    You’re right. No need for further discussion.

  • @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @NeuM said:

    @Simon said:

    @NeuM said:
    If President Trump "really won" he'd be President. That Joe Biden is President is not a point of argument.

    I am guessing that you do think Trump was cheated by electoral fraud but you don't want to open that can of worms on this thread. That's ok. You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

    My take on it is that if Trump was cheated it would be the biggest political news story since Watergate. Any reporter, left or right wing, would give anything to get that story.

    Watergate made reporters Woodward and Bernstein international news superstars. They were made for life financially and career-wise as a result of that story.

    So, the Trump fraud story would be pure news gold. But nobody has presented the story. Nobody has uncovered wrong doings. And there have been many court cases that have failed to establish fraud. They didn't even get close.

    Why? Because it didn't happen.

    If it did, the right wing media would be all over it. Naming names. Detailing the cheating. Demanding people go to jail.

    But they are not. Because it simply didn't happen.

    OK, since you asked nicely…

    My answer is there’s insufficient evidence either way to prove conclusively if there was cheating or not. Because many of the contested States have thrown up barriers to comprehensive and independently verifiable audits, we will likely never know. That’s why the only thing that is unarguable is that Joe Biden is currently President and Donald Trump is not.

    Further, even if there was provable cheating there’s no remedy in our Constitution for such a thing. So, it is what it is.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-happens-if-the-election-was-a-fraud-the-constitution-doesnt-say/

    And in the event the Federal government or the President should ever become tyrannical, there are remedies available to the States to dissolve the Federal government (without bloodshed or violence). I’m not assuming this is what will happen any time soon by the way, despite the breathtaking constitutional violations of the current and several former Presidents.

    You are making stuff up about audits. There has been zero evidence despite a large number of lawsuits to indicate irregularities that would have changed the election outcome...this includes lawsuits with GOP-appointed judges and audits with GOP controlled legislatures.

    You are voicing (though seemingly reluctant to share your own evaluation ) talking points of conspiracy theories popular on the right. The continued insinuation of significant irregularities favoring the Democratic Party is at odds reality.

    Let’s review just a few of the conspiracy theories of the Left during the last administration:

    -“He’s a racist”
    -“He’s a white supremacist” (alternate: “He sides with the neo-Nazis”)
    -“He’s a Russian agent”
    -“He hates immigrants”
    -“He’s anti-woman”
    -“He’s anti-gay”
    -“He’s an anti-Semite”
    -“He’s mentally ill”
    -“He’s compromised by Russian ‘pee tapes’”
    -“His lawyer traveled to Russia to pay off hackers who broke into DNC computers”
    -“He had Russian money funneled to him through the NRA”
    -“He killed thousands of Americans because he did nothing to respond to COVID”
    -“He told Americans to inject themselves with bleach”
    -“He cheated on his taxes”
    -“He had a stroke/strokes which he was hiding from the public”
    -“He will refuse to leave the White House if he loses”
    -“He was not spied on by the intelligence agencies and he’s crazy for suggesting it”
    -“He told supporters to commit insurrection”

    All disproven or proven to be Left propaganda. And by the way, that last one is currently part of a highly partisan sham “investigation” which involves legal harassment of him and his associates by Democratic members of Congress. The same ones who lied about the proven fraudulent Steele dossier, by the way.

    my sentiments exactly..

  • @zah7 said:

    @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @NeuM said:

    @Simon said:

    @NeuM said:
    If President Trump "really won" he'd be President. That Joe Biden is President is not a point of argument.

    I am guessing that you do think Trump was cheated by electoral fraud but you don't want to open that can of worms on this thread. That's ok. You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

    My take on it is that if Trump was cheated it would be the biggest political news story since Watergate. Any reporter, left or right wing, would give anything to get that story.

    Watergate made reporters Woodward and Bernstein international news superstars. They were made for life financially and career-wise as a result of that story.

    So, the Trump fraud story would be pure news gold. But nobody has presented the story. Nobody has uncovered wrong doings. And there have been many court cases that have failed to establish fraud. They didn't even get close.

    Why? Because it didn't happen.

    If it did, the right wing media would be all over it. Naming names. Detailing the cheating. Demanding people go to jail.

    But they are not. Because it simply didn't happen.

    OK, since you asked nicely…

    My answer is there’s insufficient evidence either way to prove conclusively if there was cheating or not. Because many of the contested States have thrown up barriers to comprehensive and independently verifiable audits, we will likely never know. That’s why the only thing that is unarguable is that Joe Biden is currently President and Donald Trump is not.

    Further, even if there was provable cheating there’s no remedy in our Constitution for such a thing. So, it is what it is.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-happens-if-the-election-was-a-fraud-the-constitution-doesnt-say/

    And in the event the Federal government or the President should ever become tyrannical, there are remedies available to the States to dissolve the Federal government (without bloodshed or violence). I’m not assuming this is what will happen any time soon by the way, despite the breathtaking constitutional violations of the current and several former Presidents.

    You are making stuff up about audits. There has been zero evidence despite a large number of lawsuits to indicate irregularities that would have changed the election outcome...this includes lawsuits with GOP-appointed judges and audits with GOP controlled legislatures.

    You are voicing (though seemingly reluctant to share your own evaluation ) talking points of conspiracy theories popular on the right. The continued insinuation of significant irregularities favoring the Democratic Party is at odds reality.

    Let’s review just a few of the conspiracy theories of the Left during the last administration:

    -“He’s a racist”
    -“He’s a white supremacist” (alternate: “He sides with the neo-Nazis”)
    -“He’s a Russian agent”
    -“He hates immigrants”
    -“He’s anti-woman”
    -“He’s anti-gay”
    -“He’s an anti-Semite”
    -“He’s mentally ill”
    -“He’s compromised by Russian ‘pee tapes’”
    -“His lawyer traveled to Russia to pay off hackers who broke into DNC computers”
    -“He had Russian money funneled to him through the NRA”
    -“He killed thousands of Americans because he did nothing to respond to COVID”
    -“He told Americans to inject themselves with bleach”
    -“He cheated on his taxes”
    -“He had a stroke/strokes which he was hiding from the public”
    -“He will refuse to leave the White House if he loses”
    -“He was not spied on by the intelligence agencies and he’s crazy for suggesting it”
    -“He told supporters to commit insurrection”

    All disproven or proven to be Left propaganda. And by the way, that last one is currently part of a highly partisan sham “investigation” which involves legal harassment of him and his associates by Democratic members of Congress. The same ones who lied about the proven fraudulent Steele dossier, by the way.

    my sentiments exactly..

    Nice dualistic statement’s, truth is often more nuanced, Trump tried to use the corrupt system against itself, he wasn’t successful at maintaining his ‘ego driven’ Presidency. As for redistribution of taxes to the poor and needy, the world’s super-rich have never been richer and are still getting richer, if that’s wealth distribution at work, it’s a system that’s rotten.

  • Amid all the suggestions for extended reading on this subject, it may be worth mentioning that reading the British comic Viz would illustrate graphically, and repeatedly, that « trump » is local slang for « fart ». Maybe this is part of the reason that British people found it hard to take Donald seriously?

  • edited December 2021

    @NeuM said:
    Let’s review just a few of the conspiracy theories of the Left during the last administration:

    I hope you are going to print a list of the right wing conspiracy theories about the Clintons for balance.

    I love the one about Hilary running a paedophilia ring operating out of a Washington pizza restaurant.

    Or her and Bill being shape-shifting aliens who get power from drinking the blood of dead children :smiley:

    Let's face it - both sides throw stupid mud at the opposition. Even Mr. Trump himself is guilty of that with the Obama "birther" nonsense.

    A far cry from the late Senator John McCain. When a woman at a McCain rally told McCain that Mr Obama was an "Arab" he took away her microphone and informed her she was wrong.

    "Senator Obama is a decent person and a person you don't have to be scared of as president of the United States," he said.

    Impressive...

  • @Simon said:

    @NeuM said:
    Let’s review just a few of the conspiracy theories of the Left during the last administration:

    I hope you are going to print a list of the right wing conspiracy theories about the Clintons for balance.

    I love the one about Hilary running a paedophilia ring operating out of a Washington pizza restaurant.

    Or her and Bill being shape-shifting aliens who get power from drinking the blood of dead children :smiley:

    Let's face it - both sides throw stupid mud at the opposition.

    Left-Right, Red-Blue, same old, same old, but no corruptus interruptus.

  • @knewspeak said:
    Left-Right, Red-Blue, same old, same old, but no corruptus interruptus.

    You are expecting corruption to be removed from politics?

  • edited December 2021

    @Simon said:

    @NeuM said:
    Let’s review just a few of the conspiracy theories of the Left during the last administration:

    I hope you are going to print a list of the right wing conspiracy theories about the Clintons for balance.

    I love the one about Hilary running a paedophilia ring operating out of a Washington pizza restaurant.

    Or her and Bill being shape-shifting aliens who get power from drinking the blood of dead children :smiley:

    Let's face it - both sides throw stupid mud at the opposition. Even Mr. Trump himself is guilty of that with the Obama "birther" nonsense.

    A far cry from the late Senator John McCain. When a woman at a McCain rally told McCain that Mr Obama was an "Arab" he took away her microphone and informed her she was wrong.

    "Senator Obama is a decent person and a person you don't have to be scared of as president of the United States," he said.

    Impressive...

    Oh, I agree there were some strange conspiracy theories. Those tend to pop up against whomever is in charge. The "good conspiracy theories" are the ones with a kernel of truth to them.

    And in that one instance you cited, McCain was right to push back. Otherwise, McCain was a generally terrible person.

  • @knewspeak said:

    @zah7 said:

    @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @NeuM said:

    @Simon said:

    @NeuM said:
    If President Trump "really won" he'd be President. That Joe Biden is President is not a point of argument.

    I am guessing that you do think Trump was cheated by electoral fraud but you don't want to open that can of worms on this thread. That's ok. You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

    My take on it is that if Trump was cheated it would be the biggest political news story since Watergate. Any reporter, left or right wing, would give anything to get that story.

    Watergate made reporters Woodward and Bernstein international news superstars. They were made for life financially and career-wise as a result of that story.

    So, the Trump fraud story would be pure news gold. But nobody has presented the story. Nobody has uncovered wrong doings. And there have been many court cases that have failed to establish fraud. They didn't even get close.

    Why? Because it didn't happen.

    If it did, the right wing media would be all over it. Naming names. Detailing the cheating. Demanding people go to jail.

    But they are not. Because it simply didn't happen.

    OK, since you asked nicely…

    My answer is there’s insufficient evidence either way to prove conclusively if there was cheating or not. Because many of the contested States have thrown up barriers to comprehensive and independently verifiable audits, we will likely never know. That’s why the only thing that is unarguable is that Joe Biden is currently President and Donald Trump is not.

    Further, even if there was provable cheating there’s no remedy in our Constitution for such a thing. So, it is what it is.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-happens-if-the-election-was-a-fraud-the-constitution-doesnt-say/

    And in the event the Federal government or the President should ever become tyrannical, there are remedies available to the States to dissolve the Federal government (without bloodshed or violence). I’m not assuming this is what will happen any time soon by the way, despite the breathtaking constitutional violations of the current and several former Presidents.

    You are making stuff up about audits. There has been zero evidence despite a large number of lawsuits to indicate irregularities that would have changed the election outcome...this includes lawsuits with GOP-appointed judges and audits with GOP controlled legislatures.

    You are voicing (though seemingly reluctant to share your own evaluation ) talking points of conspiracy theories popular on the right. The continued insinuation of significant irregularities favoring the Democratic Party is at odds reality.

    Let’s review just a few of the conspiracy theories of the Left during the last administration:

    -“He’s a racist”
    -“He’s a white supremacist” (alternate: “He sides with the neo-Nazis”)
    -“He’s a Russian agent”
    -“He hates immigrants”
    -“He’s anti-woman”
    -“He’s anti-gay”
    -“He’s an anti-Semite”
    -“He’s mentally ill”
    -“He’s compromised by Russian ‘pee tapes’”
    -“His lawyer traveled to Russia to pay off hackers who broke into DNC computers”
    -“He had Russian money funneled to him through the NRA”
    -“He killed thousands of Americans because he did nothing to respond to COVID”
    -“He told Americans to inject themselves with bleach”
    -“He cheated on his taxes”
    -“He had a stroke/strokes which he was hiding from the public”
    -“He will refuse to leave the White House if he loses”
    -“He was not spied on by the intelligence agencies and he’s crazy for suggesting it”
    -“He told supporters to commit insurrection”

    All disproven or proven to be Left propaganda. And by the way, that last one is currently part of a highly partisan sham “investigation” which involves legal harassment of him and his associates by Democratic members of Congress. The same ones who lied about the proven fraudulent Steele dossier, by the way.

    my sentiments exactly..

    Nice dualistic statement’s, truth is often more nuanced, Trump tried to use the corrupt system against itself, he wasn’t successful at maintaining his ‘ego driven’ Presidency. As for redistribution of taxes to the poor and needy, the world’s super-rich have never been richer and are still getting richer, if that’s wealth distribution at work, it’s a system that’s rotten.

    I've yet to see a rational or defensible reason to steal the wealth of the financially well off. At least in the US, they already pay the lion's share of taxes. If I had my way, I'd abolish the income tax and the IRS and replace the entire Federal tax system with the so-called "FairTax".

This discussion has been closed.