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And if hating me brings your creative juice back flowing, so be it
I don't hate you, Jim. Again, I believe you're one of the greatest producers on this forum and I truly mean it.
So I’m not allowed to make Indian music?
Well for what it’s worth, your dedication to the craft of music making, as evidenced by your post history here, is inspiring to me. I wish I had that focus. Don’t let some random asswipe take that from you. Haters gonna hate. They wanna use the notion of cultural appropriation to excuse their absolute haterade. They are not worth the thought energy. Please please continue to crank out tunes of whatever genre or type inspires you. Sane people appreciate it.
As a Japanese person I kinda do too 😂
This ended up being a pretty wholesome response to Jim’s post and it’s one of the reasons I truly love this forum. I hope all this can give you the energy you need to get back on the horse 🐎 and ride 🚗
+100
I was going to write a big long essay and then I realised it was worthy of a dissertation.
@Svetlovska 100% on your comment about the Arts
and providing some context for certain subjects.
@jwmmakerofmusic make the music that you enjoy.
@everyone Well done.
just add another chord, and you'll be free!
even tune called "So what" has an another.
one level (chord) things are depressing.
IMHO
It is ALL folk music
and you are very good folks.
Shrug it off and play music.
I love cultural appropriation, diffusion, creative remixing. I think it's one of the best and most interesting things about humanity. We need more of it.
If someone accused me of cultural appropriation, I'd say: "Thank you. You totally get me!"
As Chuck Berry said about music: “We all just borrow, baby.”
i like how picasso put it (i doubt he was the first or last to ruminate on this train of thought)
“Good artists copy, great artists steal.”
i interpret the meaning of this to be the execution exhibited by great artists is so well done that artist is who is associated to that style, and whether or not they were first to do it is irrelevant.
To everyone else here - thank you all for your wonderful support. I reiterate though - I won't go down the path of being offensive for the sake of being offensive, as I'm "too old for that sh--".
But you all have inspired me to dig back into music after a break. I guess @JanKun (who has outed himself here as the person who directly inspired this thread, even though he could've remained anonymous) did me a favour here in that I needed a creative break. Now to the person of the hour...
I thought so too, lol. I thought I had put it to rest in my mind, but it bugged me in the back of my mind and just grew and festered like a mega-sized pimple until it hindered my ability to create anything for fear of offending someone. This is actually what happened, and today that mental pimple finally had to be popped by my making this thread. Of course I am remaining as civil as I can be.
I don't know what else is to be said too. It was nice levelling with you in private, I will say that much, but honestly, it just wasn't enough to stop that metaphorical pimple from festering in my mind.
Thank you for the kind words. I'm normally not so sensitive. Like if someone says my music is rubbish, then I'll inquire as to why and ask if the person has any constructive feedback so I can learn to make my music much less rubbish. I don't let stray comments about "your music sucks" get to me.
However, this wasn't a critique of my music but rather an "attack" on my character and intentions (or at least it felt that way to me, as I explained above my brain processes information differently than a neurotypical person's brain). Music came easily to me. Being social did not when I was a child and teen, but uni helped shape my personality better being exposed to all sorts of people in real life.
And please keep in mind how your words have affected me over the course of a month to the point I wasn't able to create for three weeks. It's a shame that you can't swallow your pride and admit that you are wrong in this case. I'm sorry if I came off as a bossy narcissist with that last sentence, but I'd rather be honest than fake anymore.
Also, I remember you put this "🙇♂️" emoji in response to that Japanese national forum member. Is that not a form of cultural appropriation since you're white (French as a matter of fact)?
Sorry mate, but I'm not the one hurting myself here. You're doubling down on your mistaken stance while a majority of this forum is siding with me and encouraging me to continue to be myself and be creative.
And speaking of being hurt, you're the one who hurt me, and your words haunted me and hindered my ability to create. In fact, by making this thread, I'm taking action andbreaking that vicious mental cycle which you yourself alone directly put me through for the past month.
How about instead of trying to speak over the voices of a race of people you are not a part of, be sensitive to people on a person by person basis. You have no idea what another person could be going through in their personal lives, in their minds, etc.
Now with that being said...
Mate, I don't hate you either. I may have a bit of beef with you, and that's rather obvious by this point, but life's too short to outright hate others. The Bible may not be your belief, but I say that 1 John 3:15 still holds very true no matter what. To quote...
And of course "his brother" can be switched to "her sister", "their sibling", or any combination therein.
Anyways, I will end this reply with a song I think we all can get behind.
+1
Isn't inducing emotions what music is about?
Congrats @jwmmakerofmusic for your achievement to confront listeners with their own fears 😉
LOL! Yeah, I was somewhat afraid to open up this can of worms and air my grievances, but I'm glad I did. I have so much support and encouragement from this wonderful community. I was finally able to confront the person himself but in a calm and measured manner while sharing one of my favourite Beatles songs. And now I finally feel at peace once more. I wish this wasn't the way to "pop the mental pimple festering in my brain", but again I'm glad I did and did so without dropping a single cussword. 😳 Yeah, I'm surprised at myself too, lol.
Don't worry about it - every artist who has ever lived has faced criticism of one kind or another.
Whatever you do or say you are bound to offend someone, somewhere. Everyone has different religious, political, social, race, national, sexual, cultural etc. views so you can't please everybody.
If you keep worrying that something you say or do might "hurt" someone then you will never do anything. Try to be fair and polite with people but if they find offense then "tough luck".
That's actually a better mindset than what I had for the past few weeks lol. Cheers mate. 🍻
Man… you were really on a roll for many months.
I hope you can take your power back. Getting positive feedback is really helpful so I’ll try and watch for your next posting.
The work in question is excellent on so many levels. For your critic… anything in a pentatonic scale (5 notes) will sound like
japanese music and yet that scale exists in many cultures with varying roots being emphasized. Your critic is amazingly ignorant of music and not a friend of art in general.
I think cultural appropriation has merit when huge profits are involved… like the beach Boys or Beatles writing “Chuck Berry” rock and roll without crediting the true master of that genre.In today’s world Chuck’s family would claim credit and get some of those profits. But for a person that creates for personal fulfillment it’s just mean spirited trolling. And frankly, after saying it and trashing your mental view of why you create… they probably haven’t given it a second thought. It’s just lazy criticism based on a current politically correct meme.
Please post something new ASAP and accept feedback from people that get you. Hell… re-post one of your favorites from the vault and do that “What do you think?” trick. Just don’t do the “Tell me what needs to be changed”. Your head can’t take it right now.
All my support to @JanKun.
If you, @jwmmakerofmusic could be hurt by a good manner critic like @JanKun made, maybe you can’t accept any opinion at all.
this guy is incredible .. he is like opposite to all good people on this forum summed together, holding this forum neutral in average 🤣
It takes courage to share deep feelings and that’s the useful take away here. Anything that impacts creativity is worth sharing because someone else will benefit and may also post about being hurt by a comment. We should support each other and show others how to manage their way though comments that shake up our creative energies.
In general, this forum tends to act as a support group: “Hi, I’m McD… and I’m an App-o-holic”. “You suck McD! (just kidding). Who else would like to share.”
I just found out that AA is only effect for about 19% of alcohol abusers. I think that says something about that particular addiction. It’s a bitch.
That's the problem (well, one of the problems) with bullshit terms like "cultural appropriation". They easily ruin an otherwise perfectly valid argument. 🤷
From what I was able to reconstruct having read this thread but not the original, the noted issue was, to put it simply, Jim's benevolent ignorance in mixing music and imagery from different cultures (I'm assuming he didn't do it deliberately), which I accept can be a faux pas if the two cultures in question are at odds for whatever reason. I would take that as valid criticism and thank the reviewer for pointing it out - regardless of whether I would change anything as a consequence.
But I would also dismiss the "there are limits to cultural appropriation" part out of hand, as I'm of the opinion it doesn't mean anything.
"You may not know this but mixing Chinese music with Japanese imagery can be offensive for some" is fair criticism in my eyes; whereas "you are engaging in cultural appropriation" is meaningless - exactly the"woke stuff" that @richardyot said wasn't there.
Jim, you seem to have a much bigger need for (positive) external validation than most of us on here, this has been established multiple times. It doesn't entirely surprise me that you took that one unfortunate term as the essence of the critique (which it wasn't, really), but concentrating on everything else in it may give you an easier time and also a chance to learn something you may not have known before.
My two very subjective cents. Peace, and as you were. 👍
i think good approach is to not give any ideological/cultural/whatever subjectice point of view feedback to music of someone’s else and concentrate just to technical part - which is only objective part of feedback which can actually help to creator …
thing is, if i call my song somehow, if i use some gfx for cover, if i use some types of melodies - iťs all something what created some form of symbiosis in my own subjective perceprion of reality around me, based on my limited knowledge … so criticising this from someone’s else own subjective perception and his limited knowledge of reality a kinda makes no sense to me.
For example i calledmy recent jam “dolphins on lysergic acid” which pretty much makes sense to me but would be surprised if it makes sense to somebody else, cause he/she doesn’t experienced what i did, which led me to name it that way.
So. I personally concentrate on technical part of song when i am giving fedback.
Anyone who is commenting on this thead should make sure that they have read carefully, not just skimmed, the thread in question:
https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/56761/jwm-the-journey-orchestral-asian-trance-edm-produced-in-ns2/p1
I didn't really want to wade into this thread as I have seen that people who tried to defend JanKun were shot down by people who in most cases didn't seem aware of the original thread and or had not read it carefully enough to understand clearly the point JanKun was making and or saw it as a chance to push their own sociopolitical agendas.
Frankly I've been shocked by some of the comments I've seen here, many from people I would have thought willing to and capable of understanding a subtle argument in an objective manner.
Here are the facts as I see them, having read the original thread and this one very thoroughly.
JanKun was mostly talking about what the average Japanese person feels about aspects of their culture getting mixed up with Chinese culture. Trust me, as someone who lived in China for years, this is not a petty issue. The 2 countries are very different and in China in particular there is a lot of animosity towards Japan, largely related to the 2nd World War (which, incidentally, is fueled and taken advantage of by the Chinese government to divert discontent towards their own governance). When he pointed out issues around the use of the word Asian, and brought up the N word in that context, he was not saying that JMW was being racist. Anyone who genuinely thinks that needs to reread the thead.
JanKun was polite in his engagement, as was Richard and the Japanese member who popped in to support their statements
Nobody whatsoever was saying that there was anything wrong in a western white guy making music based on another culture's music. That was just not part of the argument. Anyone who disagrees has a fundamental problem with understanding English and or did not take the time to read the points made carefully, and or doesn't want to understand because this was just too delicious an opportunity to push their own agendas
Jim, my brother, while I feel for you, you can't blame JanKun for your creative rut. His actions triggered it, yes, but he didn't 'make you' think or feel anything. He politely pointed out some cultural issues around the naming of your track etc, and the best thing to do would have been to accept them and / or politely disagree and move on. I feel for you that you're neirodivergent. Even though I think my brain is fairly normal (fingers crossed, who really knows lol) I can also sometimes have issues dealing with criticism or rejection. It's part of beihg human and some deal with it better than others, but we can all learn to deal with it better, to the extent that our particular 'bodymind' configuration is wired. Some find this easier than others.
This thread has so many pretty nasty posts in it, it kind of blows my mind. I would suggest that the reason that it seems that most people support your view here, Jim, is that people who didn't support it took one look at the thread early on and thought, 'no way I'm touching this with a bargepole, mate, even though I think that JanKun is getting the rough end of the stick'. Because when people are fired up the way many are here, anyone who disagrees with their opinion often gets pilloried, or even worse, it triggers cognitive dissonance in the people they are disagreeing with, as a defense strategy against criticism. 'He thinks I'm wrong, that means I'm bad, hang on I'm not a bad person, that means he must be!'
Hence, anyone disagreeing with the interpretation of the majority opinion in this particular thread runs two risks. 1) They might also unfairly get labeled an 'asswipe' or similar term like the ones that have been carelessly used here too, 2) It's not even worth the risk or the effort because the people they're disagreeing with will not be swayed, or will dig their heels in ever deeper.
But things have gone a bit too far, so I decided to give my view, regardless.
JMW, as many have pointed out, you are generally one of the loveliest people on the forum, but I think this whole thing got way blown out of proportion. I hope that you and Jan Kun find a way to reach an understanding. If not, best to politely agree to disagree and just move on, without drama, and do whatever work is needed to process the whole saga and learn any lessons needing to be learned. I wish you both luck.
Excellent post Gav, I agree with you 100%
@ervin @Gavinski thanks for bringing some sanity to this discussion.
@jwmmakerofmusic I understand that you are neurodivergent, and that makes you sensitive to criticism. But I know @JanKun really well, and he's a sweet and sensitive guy just like you are. Trust me, he did not intend to hurt you.
Amazing post!! Excellent
@jwmmakerofmusic
other point if view unrelated to this particular case…
in my opinion you are one of most creative and productive prople on this forum.. that is what matters, rest is noise. Ignore noise.
Also do not push yourself too hard, sometimes it blows my mind how much music you can push in short time period - while this is cool it has also risks - you can creatively burn out..
Take it easy.. when you have inspiration, make music. When you don’t, go fishing 😂 There is no rule that you must release new track every other week
Month of creative silence is completely normal. I have periods even half of year when i fo not even start any new meaningful track. When this hits i just watch netflix or waste time by another meaningless way😂
Also when i havw creative block, i just explore new apps without intention to do donething meaningful, or i create new presets in various synths which i then can use when music creativiti inspiration returns … I do this after “Netflix” phase bwcause it is usually final step to get my musical creativity back
Great advice Dendy. Yes, for me it can often be like this - I burn myself out quickly in periods of overenthusiasm and then need time out to get my mojo back. The fallow periods are often providing some other kind of 'food' that then goes on to fertilise the next creative period.
Added one more important thing - ability to literally waste time with meaningless activities
) (and do not feel guilty for that). It surprisingly helps a lot too !
Definitely. And the benefits of even things like boredom for improving creativity are well researched at this point.