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Comments
drama,baby😀
Can someone enlighten me, how on the earth unsolicited diagnosing someone or an entire group suddenly became a good thing?! And lead to the peaceful resolution of the conflict?
I’m indirectly hurt, those lucky bastards, if we know each other in real life, you would owe me a drink or few, to wash out my suffering. 🤣
Do u mean about Jim being neurodivergent? That's his own claim, presumably diagnosed by a medical professional
Not just you, based on recent posts, one could conclude that everything happened in Jim's head, with a group of not-so-'sane' forum members attempting to comfort fellow musicians in need. 🤔
Sorry brother, I'm not really sure I fully get what you're saying, neither in this comment nor the last one! Anyway, in terms of what happened, what was said etc, there's a pretty clear record of it in the thread were the disagreement / misunderstanding first took place
The way I see it is that the neurodivergence makes @jwmmakerofmusic more sensitive to criticism than others might be, but that it's also a separate aspect of the situation and has no bearing on the argument about cultural sensitivities. It's merely something to be aware of in this particular situation, and that helps to explain his reaction and feelings.
First I would have liked if you clearly mentioned my name in your initial post instead of having to learn about this from someone else. If you have a beef with someone, make your call clearly instead of using unclear pronouns in people's back. I am a member of this forum for a few years, and I have nothing to be ashamed about in this story. I have always been polite, tried to write with courteous manner despite my language limitations, and I never insulted anyone here.
Second, I never said cultural appropriation was necessarily a bad thing. As someone mentioned as an example, rock music was invented in your country and is now celebrated all over the world with an incredible array of local variations. One of the best exemple of cultural appropriation should you ask me.
What I was meaning is that sometimes it might be wise to be careful with cultural appropriation, that's very different. Richard gave relevant exemples to illustrate that. I personally would feel strange hearing a track of Yiddish music with a national socialist sawstika sticker on it. That's my opinion. People are free to disagree and there might be a few hater on this thread that might like the idea.
This bring me to my next point, I have the right to express my opinion even if you don't like it. And while I am sorry your condition made you feel this way, please don't use me as a scapegoat for the slowing down of your musical output.
I will explain my point ONE LAST TIME as clearly as I can, given I am not a native speaker.
Genji no Monogatari is a monument of Japanese cultural heritage. More than that, it is a monument of mankind litterature for many great reasons. First, it is said to be the first ever written novel in the history of mankind. Second it is also the first exemple of a novel showing the life of nobles in all their extravaganza and their often contemptuous attitudes towards the lower social classes. So a social satire novel with deep psychological aspects.
Last and most importantly, this novel has been written by a woman. We still live in a misogynistic and machist time, can we simply agree on that? Now imagine how it was back then... To illustrate that, you should know that at that time it was badly perceived for a woman to write in Kanji (ideograms) in public. To avoid this, Murasaki Shikibu wrote her novel almost exclusively in Kana (syllabic writing system) with focus on the hiragana system. If you don't know what I am talking about, let's just say it's a daunting task. So yeah, next time you face a male too proud of his balls you can remind him that the first ever written novel was written by someone who didn't have balls but had enough balls to moke noble males way of life.
For all those reasons I consider this novel as a treasure that deserves recognition and respect.
I found it great that you decided to pay your respect to this immense cultural monument. They are so many people out there who don't even know about it, so hats off to you for that.
Now, I will repeat this one more time. You created an amazing intricated track with pristine production. I truly mean it. I am sure you have dedicated a lot of time and love to it. And that's remarkable. That being said, it doesn't take a PhD in Chinese and Japanese comparative musical culture to realise your track sounds like Chinese music and didn't remotely sound like traditional Japanese music. A stupid person like me without proper musical education can hear it. I have nothing against Chinese music. It is another monumental cultural heritage which I deeply respect. My only point was, to me, and a lot of people who deeply respect Genji no Monogatari, having it associated with chinese music feels just awkward. That, again, is a subjective opinion but shared by millions of people. Feel free to disagree.
Now, in the context of musical appropriation, you're free to create whatever you want in whatever way you see fit. It is your music. It is your universe. That's a basic predicament.
So if for you, the music you created was your own way to show your love to the whole Asian subcontinent cultures, again you're free to do so. In return people are free to love your work or to receive it with some reserve given their own cultural background. Cultural appropriation is a two sided blade. There are millions of people in Japan who would feel awkward to see deep elements of their cultural heritage associated with chinese cultural heritage. The same goes for Chinese people with Japanese culture. It is just a fact. Maybe a sad one, I am not here to judge, but it is just a fact...I am not calling you a racist nor did I doubt the purity of your original intention.
Should you care about a French guy's opinion on a forum or even about the opinion of millions of people? I honestly think you shouldn't as long as you don't call for hatred. You're the creator. You cannot have control over people's perceptions, opinions, feelings and sensitivities, especially if you don't have enough knowledge of their culture. Don't try to convince people their feelings or opinion's are wrong. Just leave them be even if you don't agree. Opinions, feelings are subjective to somebody's own education and cultural background.
To conclude, and that's probably the most important thing to point out. I NEVER ASKED YOU TO MODIFY YOUR TRACK TITLE OR ARTWORK. That's censoreship. I JUST MENTION HOW I FELT ABOUT THESE. You are the one who decided to self censore your own work. And to be honest I found it very strange. No one asked you to do so. So please stand right and tall in your shoes and look far ahead. If you're proud of your own work and all the love and effort you put into it, your best move would be to proudly revert back to its initial title and artwork without any concern for my opinion or anybody else's opinion. No one ever asked you to censore it. And the content you created didn't contain any call for hatred. So please be proud of your own accomplishment.
Now can we leave this behind once and for all please? I honestly don't even understand the point of this thread. A call for public recognition? We all recognise you as a great contributor here.
Or is it a call for my public lapidation to make you feel better? If that's your intention, I have no intention to leave this forum. And to be honest the haters comments I read on this thread comfort me not to leave, not a single moment have I felt offended. I have nothing against you personally, Jim. I actually enjoyed the PM exchange we had, it felt good to get to know you better. I just happened to express an opinion that you didn't like or didn't try to understand. I am sorry for the way it makes you feel. But I don't have to feel sorry for being myself and express myself the way I do. And while I sincerely feel for your condition, I shouldn't have to care about the way people react as long as I am expressing myself respectfully and explain my point politely to the best of my ability.
Stop wasting some precious time you could be spending on music. Get back on your keys, your iPad or whatever device you're using and please make your music loud and clear.
PS: Kudos to all the kind folks here who commented and sent supporting PM. I was ready to face thus wave by myself and the unexpected number of support really surprised me, so big big Love to you all, you know who your are !
Kudos to all haters who didn't even take the time to read the whole story to jump on conclusion by laziness or just because the whole thing served their own agendas, I was in for a good laugh and it made my day so big love to you all too.
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I was there, I know what happened. Jim started this thread calling for help, he explained the problem very well. I apologize if you can't read generalizations from recent posts and blame those attempting to comfort Jim in such a volatile situation.
And don't worry, my own wife doesn't always understand me.
I think we just have some communication breakdown here, lol, we usually agree on things I think. Let's maybe just leave it for now 😂
@JanKun very good post, I really hope all this gets resolved, let's hope people don't try to fan the flames and instead seek harmony
Again, this is BRILLIANT. Thank you
Spot on, @Gavinski .
My bottom line, FWIW: @jwmmakerofmusic and @JanKun , I have huge respect for the work and skills of both of you, and hope this has at least cleared the air and you can both get back to making fantastic music.
@Gavinski - Gav, this is the only point I don't agree with in your long and measured comment, but this one really sticks out for me:
"Anyone who disagrees has a fundamental problem with understanding English and or did not take the time to read the points made carefully, and or doesn't want to understand because this was just too delicious an opportunity to push their own agendas"
To me, this is a case of playing the man not the ball. I can accept you personally can't imagine someone can have a legitimate argument for the opposite position, but that shouldn't lead you to conclude there isn't one possible. Also, you seem to be doing something here that you yourself argue against in another part of the same comment.
Hi Ervin, that quote was referring to this:
'Nobody whatsoever was saying that there was anything wrong in a western white guy making music based on another culture's music'
I didn't see Jan, Richard or the other commenter from Japan say that western people could not make music based on another culture. Did you？if you did, please share the quote and I will stand corrected, no problem. Otherwise, what I wrote was an accurate description of the facts as they pertain to comments made by those 3 people in that particular original thread.
I read into it that you were referring to other posts. There are definitely one or two in this thread that ignored the OP and made generalizations.
My two cents: Neurodivergent people can't be expected to always react in a completely logical way to all situations. So it can simultaneously be the case that Jankun has a reasonable point which JWM has overreacted to, and therefore Jankun shouldn't be blamed for the situation... but also that JWM has reacted completely reasonably in line with his autism and therefore feels rightly aggrieved.
What hasn't helped are the supportive posts from other forumites that I'm sure meant well but have only inflamed the situation. Subsequently emboldened, I really didn't like the bit in this thread where JWM said to Jankun, 'It's a shame that you can't swallow your pride and admit that you are wrong in this case.' Because Jankun isn't wrong at all. He had a well articulated opinion which was reacted to in a way that he couldn't have predicted. But like I said above, JWM's reaction is understandable considering his condition. Neither party is in the wrong here - Jankun's point was well made, JWM's reaction was authentic. Jankun's annoyance at the reaction is understandable. JWM's continued annoyance at the original post is understandable. But it seems harder for all parties to move past all this if other people keep enabling further reactions.
By the way, I don't like the whole notion of cultural appropriation. As far as I'm concerned, we should be allowed to wear whatever clothes and have any hairstyle we want (as long as this comes from a good place, rather than taking the piss) and I think it's stupid and counterproductive for any group to claim exclusive ownership of popular movements. However, I don't think this particular situation has much, if anything, to do with cultural appropriation. When it comes to being accidentally offensive by mixing up history or which group came up with what (as can be the case when stretching creativity into new, unfamiliar areas), I don't see an issue with being politely informed if this happens, and then we can decide whether we want to take account of the feedback or not. And have opinions formed accordingly!
I'm sorry that JWM has been stewing on all this for weeks, though - it's horrible when we struggle to get a negative thought out of our heads, speaking even as a non-neurodivergent fellow. I hope that he can get back to full-on creativity very soon! He's usually so prolific that it totally embarrasses my own meagre output.
Yes, hopefully the clarification above shows what I personally was referring to in the words quoted by Ervin, cheers Michael.
@Gavinski - Got it, thanks for explaining it to me 👍
When the word "asian" is being compared to the "n-word", and (taking the OP's word for it), you're being told you're hurting people, I don't think strong reactions are unreasonable. Not if the person cares to any degree. I'm seeing similar analogies in this thread involving Yiddish music and Nazi symbols, and I don't mind saying that all of these things smack of false equivalency (and are little overwrought). Unless I'm missing some cultural context in which Genji is held to the same level of cultural sacredness as say a religious text like the Quran is.
I did read the quoted text in question and later the original discussion, and it doesn't change my original assessment of what's being claimed.
I also saw the person from Japan commenting and I don't think they were necessarily saying they were hurt. Another person who identified as Japanese had no problem whatsoever with the original work. Also, FWIW, I'm seeing a lot of members pushing back against what was said to OP who have not self-identified as neurodivergent-- thus, I don' t think that brain circuitry is a major part of the issue here.
P.S. I have been to Asia too, am married to someone from the region, have talked to many people from the region and have never heard anyone compare "asian" to the 'n-word'-- ever. "Oriental" perhaps when used to describe people, but never the word "asian". That is news to me.
It's great to witness a sincere exchange where people are genuinely trying to understand each other's POV. The internet should take note. This interaction is the best thing to come out of the whole thread.
Amen!
LOL! About sums it up for me. Time to clarify things just a bit more.
Or maybe you don't understand neurodivergence and should educate yourself?
I have accepted lots of criticism about various aspects of my music over the years - mainly technical aspects of my past music productions. Sure those stung a little, but I learned and grew as a producer into who I am today. Things like that didn't fester in my mind like @JanKun 's dissertations from last month.
What JanKun said is one of the rare times something really got to me. First the shock of what he said in public, but then what he said in private was far worse. I'm not going to paraphrase everything, but he said that he's sorry "if the word "Asian" is the same as the N-word", but "it is real" and "I'm telling you this from personal experience".
Then he said something akin to "you should be careful because you can hurt people without realising it".
THIS is what got into my head moreso than his public dissertations. Can you see now how it messed with my head?! Can you see how that's an attack on my character and made me paranoid to create anything further? Maybe take a sensitivity training course to understand those who are neurodivergent better @OnfraySin .
I know that @JanKun is coming off as polite, and he was rather polite, but those words cut deep! Just as a gentle wind can erode rock over time, JanKun's words have eroded my mental health over the course of a month.
This is very well said Gavinski. As always, you have a great way of putting things into a more rational perspective.
This is how my brain perceived it to be honest, and I'm having difficulty with trying to think otherwise.
Thanks mate for the kind comments. This is one of those very rare times where I got riled up. Yeah I think the thread got a bit blown out of propotion too. I do believe someday JanKun and I can reach a mutual understanding, or at least agree to disagree and move on without drama. The reason I became dramatic is I let it fester for all this while rather than continue to try and work things out. "What doesn't kill me makes me stronger", and I need to work on becoming stronger and more resilient.
That's fair. I understand he didn't intend to hurt me, but sometimes words need to be chosen more carefully. The more I think about it, the more I believe this is the point I was trying to get across. Not that JanKun is bad, but that words need to be chosen more carefully.
Well you did insult me. Even if that wasn't your intention. And the reason I didn't call you out by name or pronoun was to preserve your identity. This is a "me" issue, not necessarily a "you" issue.
Okay, so I'm starting to learn cultural appropriation isn't entirely bad. Kinda hard to wrap my head around the concept, but there is merit here.
You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to feel the way I feel about it. And I'm sorry, but you are the main reason that my musical output was slowed down. I don't care if that's unfair to you or not. You caused this by your callous words, even if they were delivered in as polite a manner as possible.
AMEN! THANK you! Now THAT is exactly why I made the piece of music!
Thank you again. The track in question was my love letter to this amazing piece of work from an amazing author who went through so much trouble just to get her poignant words out to the masses.
I will admit I have limited knowledge of what Chinese music is supposed to sound like compared to Japanese music. Maybe you can PM me musical examples from Youtube so I can hear the difference. I'm assuming here that a lot of the Western takes on Chinese and Japanese music in general tends to blend both styles. Maybe if you can educate me on what both styles sound distinctly from an Eastern perspective, maybe this can be the start of my education regarding both musical traditions.
Right. But as I said, perhaps you can educate me on what both musical traditions sound like in their own distinct rights. Maybe one day I can create a piece of music that IS strictly Japanese that I can call "Genji" to honour the novel and author behind it.
Okay. Now I think we're getting somewhere.
I didn't call for hatred though. I simply called for you (and others) to simply leave me alone when it comes to my future musical endeavors. Others have responded negatively. I can't control that. But as far as I am concerned, live and let live.
Thanks mate. That actually means a lot to me. Since the track is over a month old, it would be rather strange to revert everything back. A majority of people who heard and loved my track on SoundCloud now know it as "The Journey".
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Just a call for you to leave me alone and to air my grievances, but without directly calling you out. That's all the initial intention was. Also to finally pop the mental pimple as I have stated above. Clearly you didn't carefully read my previous replies to you and others in this thread.
I don't want you to leave the forum. It'd be a great loss. Despite my grievances, your collaborations with @richardyot are very inspiring to me.
Likewise mate.
Thing is, I tried to understand it. The more I tried, the more it burrowed into my brain and messed with it. Words do cut deep, even if that wasn't your intention, which is why I asked to be left alone by you in future music endeavors. So I didn't have to personally suffer through this again.
And yes you were polite, but respectful? That's rather subjective between the person giving the opinion versus the one hurt by it. And the fact that I took it as disrespect is subjective too, not objective. But I believe we can agree to disagree.
Thanks mate for the encouragement.
If only I was able to handle things with as much grace as you, I'd be in a better state of mental health and wellbeing. Just know if I truly hated you, I wouldn't have taken as much time out of my morning to answer you like I did. I do genuinely want us to get along, even if that means to agree to disagree.
Exactly. I'm still trying to understand @JanKun 's point of view, even if I'm still pushing against it somewhat. He's explaining things clear and concisely, but my neurodivergent brain is still trying to understand.
Sounds like a happy ending is approaching!
This is what I'm hoping for.
To finally get on the same page with @JanKun for real this time rather than faking it.
It does sound that way a bit. Fingers crossed! Cheers for potentially entering into a nuanced discussion with JK again Jim, hopefully everything will be resolved, or at least left a bit better than it was previously 🔥
Thanks mate!
This is what I'm hoping for too. And I bet I'd buy him a beer if I ever was in Japan or if he found himself Stateside in SE Wisconsin.
I don't have any experience with neurodivergence, so I can't speak from any position of authority here. So I could be wrong, but the way I see it is that you took Jankun's comments personally as a slur on your character when they weren't intended that way.
No you aren't wrong. It's all subjective.