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Comments
Sweden is more comparable to England and other country's in Europe. Stockholm has a population density similar to London.
SE Asia has had little impact from this virus. Especially country's that have had the highest amount of Chinese tourists. There is more to it than mask wearing. There is very likely a high level of existing cross immunity.
Japan, despite its widespread use of face masks, experienced its most recent influenza epidemic with more than 5 million people falling ill just one year ago
None of which supports your claim that Sweden did well compared to countries that dealt with the virus more strictly.
"Sweden tried “Herd Immunity” to deal with Coronavirus; it resulted in a death rate many times larger than its neighbors"
Also one of the highest in the entire world:
Oh, that's right. The World Health Organization is "fake news!"
The numbers are all totally fabricated to make those three great, wonderful, and incredibly smart nations look "so very, very bad!"
So unfair!
So very, very unfair!
Go crawl back under your rock and give it a break for once in your pathetic divisive little life.
I said they did no worse. And when you look at historical all cause mortality there is nothing exceptional about this year so far.
Pretty obvious what the "B" in @Mark B stands for:
Pure unadulterated Bullshit!
More insults. You lose.
No, you lose.
You shall now be totally ignored, and hopefully everyone else who has responded to your endless pack of lies, obstruction, and BS shall follow suit as well.
Bather away to no one and forever be recognized and the pathetic misguided numbskull who attempts to make the blind see, the deaf hear, and the doofuses of the world "very stable geniuses."
You keep changing your arguments. I submit that 580 deaths per million is FAR different from 110 deaths per million (neighboring Denmark) and even more different from South Korea or New Zealand that have like 1/50th OR fewer deaths per million from Covid.
Funny you mention japan. See in japan, face mask use is common for flu season and allergy seasons. It’s not mandatory, but rather a courtesy toward others to avoid spreading disease. If you feel sick, you wear a mask. Influenza is a yearly concern, but never seen as so threatening that it requires strict adherence to mask wearing procedures. So simply put, in typical flu seasons, people use masks at their own discretion.
So when covid became a massive pandemic, people in japan responded with stricter adherence to guidelines and mask usage increased. Not to just when you feel sick, but every day, regardless of symptoms or not. So it’s funny you mention last year, because the data this year shows that since people have tried so hard to wear masks to
avoid catching and spreading covid, influenza cases for February were down 60% from last year.
I've shown a chart that shows all causes of death this year in Sweden is in line with previous years. Every country classify's Covid deaths differently - was it tested on death, main cause of death, not tested but presumed. So looking at all cause mortality gives a more accurate picture.
Ah, the latests from London:
"The UK is in "the last chance saloon" to avoid tougher lockdown measures. Chief Medical Officer Professor Chris Whitty warns today we are at a "critical point in the pandemic". He will give a live broadcast at 11am, warning the spread of coronavirus is "heading in the wrong direction" and that Britain faces a "very challenging winter period". Watch it here. Boris Johnson is tomorrow expected to give the nation one final chance to prove it can follow the rules and suppress a second wave. The Prime Minister is set to threaten curfews on pubs and bans on households socialising if the public does not follow strict self-isolation and social distancing rules. "This is the last chance saloon," said a Government source. Mixed messages from Mr Johnson have left people not knowing how to behave or behaving badly, says Global Health Security Editor Paul Nuki, as he argues Professor Whitty could still fix that. View the latest data on Covid-19 cases that is worrying experts."
"Stupid is as stupid does..."
Actually since you’re talking about only one country, perhaps it’d be more accurate to consider how Sweden classifies its covid deaths, and look at that data accurately. Even by the chart you shared, there is a noticeable increase in deaths over previous years.
In Britain during the 1918 influenza pandemic wearing face cloths were found to reduce the risk of being infected and were used by medical staff.
Congratulations @Mark B. You have maintained an even strain and driven some members to distraction. Yet you have convinced absolutely no one that your vision has merit. The facts do not support you. You have proven Trump correct....That a herd mentality is gripping great swaths of people in the US and Europe. That their minds have been thoroughly cleansed by exposure to the virus.
You must realize somewhere inside yourself that an assemblage of details that project an aberrant conclusion... one that flies in the face of common sense (why do all those surgeons have to wear masks, by golly!)... that the transmission of disease by aerosolized virus is fake news... that scientists and researchers that have successfully dealt with the likes of Ebola, H1N1, polio, and even made progress battling AIDS have lost their marbles when it comes to a disease that not only kills, but maims every system of the human body, no matter what age...
That these men and women of science are blind, unscientific and perhaps have an agenda to bamboozle us into what? To stop us attending church, movies, sports, fitness centers and backyard barbecues? Well, of course they do... they're just a bunch of spoilsports, aren’t they? Just out to ruin global economies and everybody’s good time cause they have to get up in the morning and go to that damn science job.
I have to wonder what is really inside these flat earth people. Do their suspicions apply to everyone they encounter, or just to those who might wear a mask even if it’s for the benefit of the doubt and, everything else aside, seems like just the nicer thing to do for others? What do they hope the future will look like?
Surely we must all share the sadness that humanity’s failings have brought us to catastrophic results on land, sea and in the air. But, then again, why bother? Let us continue to slaver our way through life, spreading the virus of our fearful, angry and ill conceived notions in the face of harsh and harsher realities. Shit, if we don’t stop folks from wearing masks, who will? For sure those masks will bring an end to all we hold near and dear. Is it it obvious?
Sebastian Rushworth, M.D.
Covid-19: Does Sweden have herd immunity?
At the beginning of August I wrote an article about my experiences working as an emergency physician in Stockholm, Sweden during the covid pandemic....
https://sebastianrushworth.com/2020/09/19/covid-19-does-sweden-have-herd-immunity/
Very nice article @Mark B ... are you that physician, perhaps? If so, I must applaud you for being able to keep up with your iOS hobby as well as ministering to the public. In fact you have convinced me that over 7,000,000 infections, 40,000 new cases a day and 200,000 deaths are the results of those damn masks. I mean, what else could it be? That is the point you have been making over and over, correct?
For perspective you may want to analyze this... it’s definitely gaining traction.
https://physicsworld.com/a/fighting-flat-earth-theory/
You totally miss the point of that article. Do you really think we can rid the world of this virus by these continual lockdowns. What will happen first, the virus is eliminated or society collapses.
@Mark B, are you saying we have these statistics in the US because of the lockdown? What exactly do you think the reasons are why the virus is rampant in the US? If the lockdown had been nationwide then the infection rate would have come down. If testing and tracing had been organized and implemented, as in some other countries, the economy would have had a chance to return to normal. It was totally half assed. Certainly you would agree with that?
The measures taken, lockdown, social distancing, wearing mask, testing and tracing only buy time, they won’t eliminate the virus, not even the vaccine will eliminate it.
You’re somewhat lacking a point here. I suppose your point is, “if the methods dont guarantee the pandemic ends, what’s the point?”
The experience of various countries is pretty clear. Depending on where you are in the spread of the disease, you have to adjust your guidelines and practices. If the people and businesses in the country follow guidelines closely, its possible to keep the disease within a controllable range, which, ideally, allows you to open up the economy gradually. No one is stupid enough to think that you can stop the world economies, but a lot of people are stupid enough to think that you can do nothing, and the pandemic will just go away on its own.
The balancing act is in the culture of the country, the capacity of the health care industry, the population, and spread, and the economic capability to throttle the economy long enough to control numbers. The funny thing is, all the anti-mask/anti-lockdown people don’t realize that if they just took time to adhere to guidelines strictly now, it’d be possible to get things under control and moving again much sooner. Opening up the economy again, requires recognizing that infections will still happen, but that the guidelines are meant to avoid serious cases that require hospitalization, and death, that will overwhelm the health care system. If you can’t keep things within that range, you overwhelm the system, more people get serious infections, more people die, and the economy tanks. If you do it within guidelines, ideally, few people die, more people go back to a throttled worklife, and the economy slowly weathers this storm.
Fro LL's article:
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe
Lee McIntyre, Boston University
@Mark B I think this applies to you. You're not trolling and you seems well-intentioned but you must see this is what is happening. Have you looked up tables of comparative yearly death rates for all countries in the world? Have you found any that are higher this year than last? What about a table for worldwide yearly mortalities? Thing is, these will all fluctuate a lot from year to year for a multitude of different reasons.
I’m expressing the same views as a lot of notable scientists. Does that make them flat earthers too?
It depends, I'm not going to generalise about every scientific article you have posted here because I haven't read them all. But see the points I made about Peter Hitchens etc above. At this point, the vast majority of doctors believe that we should be wearing masks, testing and tracing etc.
The Swedish doctor has shown the country coped with the virus and have built immunity without severe lockdowns, masks and loss freedoms. The countries that have tried to control it with measures that have never been taken before have ended up in a worse position.
The key thing to recognize is that a lot of people are being hurt economically by the lockdowns etc and badly want things to go back to normal. They may then force their minds to find ways to believe that these lockdowns are unnecessary or even counterproductive and we should get back to normal. As has been said to you many times here, the main reason the UK and US lockdowns etc have not worked well is that they were brought in too late, not implemented cleverly, lifted too early and in some cases not complied with well by the local population etc etc. China had massive compliance and is already out of recession.
Former chief scientific advisor at Pfizer Dr Mike Yeadon has called on Matt Hancock to provide evidence that the UK is heading towards a second coronavirus wave.
Speaking with talkRADIO’s Julia Hartley-Brewer, he said: “When you look at the data, honestly, there are more cases…but think at most we’re in a second ripple.”
Dr Yeadon also warned against the rate of false positives in the UK’s testing system.
Indeed, scientific consensus, like democracy is an imperfect system but it tends to work in the same way. Perhaps these cited scientists are alienated geniuses, a la Jeff Goldblum’s character in Independence Day... But it’s extremely unlikely, considering the vast amount of evidence and consensus to the contrary, as well as the considerable previous data gathered over the course of medical history. Each government is doing what it ‘thinks’ best in the circumstances with imperfect data, and we should each do the same.
I wouldn’t ever consider trying to convince anyone to take more risk with other peoples lives, livelihoods and health though, and that is why I’m growing increasingly intolerant of people who propagate misinformation in the pursuit of their own goals of self aggrandisement or simply hoping that others will join their deluded cult.
Most of us (I would hope all) have interests in shortening the period of disruption for varying reasons, our incomes, the health (not just covid - my own mum’s unable to walk waiting for a hip replacements since January) so any attempt to make the global recovery harder or lengthier to reach is a betrayal of human compassion that is bordering on unforgivable, especially when the cost is as little as an inconvenience as wearing a damn mask (health exceptions are of course understandable, both physical and mental), but to continue to argue that there’s a conspiracy to enslave us is not. In the UK, the only motivation I can ding’s fire this is hiding the upcoming economic harm of Brexit, but it seems the same players are on both sides of that argument...
'not evidence-based' simply means there haven't been double blind placebo trials - good luck doing those for wearing masks. There are a shitload of things that we all know are true that are not 'evidence-based'.
Also, the study he mentioned about how mask wearing at home did little to protect people against getting flu is not relevant because in this case you had a child with flu who was not wearing a mask and the family members who were wearing masks. But the main point of the covid public mask wearing strategy has been to stop people who have it spreading it. The idea is that if you have the virus your infected droplets will get caught in your own masks rather than spreading out into the air supply in confined indoors spaces.
Fact is, sadly, there are tons of stupid and misguided experts. Doesn't mean we shouldn't trust any experts. Means we need to be critical about how we assess evidence.