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@Max23, I always thought your posts were about the government and not Americans in general... yet you seemed to have risen to take the bait and now are criticizing the general population. I don’t get it.
You know, as a Jew, it has taken me till now to get over the predisposition to dislike what Germany was capable of. Actually, the behavior of Germany today has changed my mind. Taking in patients from Italy was inspiring. Merkel’s approach honest and uplifting. Before I focused on the rise of neo Nazis in Deutschland. I told myself, yep, it’s hard to get it out of your blood. After all, Germany has persecuted Jews since the Crusades. Things have been good for Germany lately, no? If things were like they were in Germany when it took a wheelbarrow of marks to buy a loaf of bread and there were billion mark postage stamps would the hostility and violence you state will occur in the US (it won’t and I am a pessimist) not surface again amongst the disenfranchised? You tell me.
I truly think you underestimate America and it’s ability to deal with this. It’s not the first time The US has been caught flat footed and off to a slow start. Yes, we are a consumer goods gorged society and saddled with the worst leadership since Herbert Hoover (another propagandist prez who tooted his own horn) but we are good at catchup and individual states (with exceptions) are very strong with many good leaders. IMO it is too soon to call, but highly unlikely there will be burning dumpsters and riots. That happened in France, no?
I was not offended by your earlier posts at all, and have no problem with Europeans, Africans or Asians being critical of America. Lord knows we deserve it. But we are still the country that had heart enough to help rebuild Europe and Japan after ww2. We are a mongrel populace. We are fractious. We have racists and xenophobes like every country. But they have been put down in the US time and again. I definitely am not certain of the outcome here. I doubt the billionaire elite will be overthrown. Yep, plenty of economic hardship on the way. But, I believe, we will get thru it. If we are diminished as a superpower that is probably a good thing. There are great strengths in our national mosaic. I believe they will blossom. Actually, I think Europe is in greater danger, but that is another discussion for another time. Best to you, Max.
That's true, re - online communication; sarcasm vs 'intended tone'.
Okay, so let's analyze. You misquoted me. I never judged you. I never said that you didn't read my words carefully. I never said that you don't read thoughtfully. I merely said that you likely haven't read every post, since you questioned and mistook my blatant sarcasm as 'intended tone' several times.
I'm not going to argue with you about this. It's silly.
One thing that’s apparent from my pov, is the countries being led by oligarch sponsored populists especially, are handling this crisis terribly, trump, johnson, bolsonaro, modi etc. It highlights for me the disconnect that oligarchs and their puppets have for the rest of us.
If you look at new zealand, being led by jacinda ardern who comes across as empathetic and also a solid leader imo, their totals from today are 1312 confirmed, 442 recovered and 4 deaths. I know it’s hard to make direct comparisons between countries, population density, size, air travel, susceptibility of population etc, but the strategy new zealand deployed, was to lock things down early before the virus had chance to spread unabated. With the right response of other nations this covid-19 monstrosity might of been a one season wonder.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/new-zealand-lockdown-on-track-to-kill-off-coronavirus-outbreak-gw7bxtl8b
https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/covid-19-coronavirus-death-toll-rises-to-four-in-new-zealand/ar-BB12swdz
After the dust has settled and we get a clearer picture of how things have panned out, there needs to be a world wide discussion on how concentrated wealth, greed and power, puts us all at risk, due to the incompetence of people who consider themselves superior to the rest of us, but for the most part are shysters. We’ve known this for as long as there has been greedy mofo’s amongst us, jesus was talking about it 2000 or so years ago, easier for a camel to pass through the eye of needle, then a rich bloke getting into the kingdom of heaven, throw the money changers out the temple etc. Then he got killed for speaking out, having compassion and rabble rousing.
I hope we don’t fall for putting the blame solely on the puppets in power as it’s the people behind them that cause most but not all the problems we face. But there needs to be some sort of change, this pandemic has exposed the many flaws in human condition and societies as a whole and how susceptible we are to people with personality disorders and extreme wealth, techniques they deploy to maintain power, psychological operations, behaviour modification, creating false divisions between us, repetition of message, manipulating history etc.
I don’t blame people who want change and end up voting into office the true deplorables, i.e politicians across the spectrum (peaking on the right), who have forgotten about public service and use their position to just feather their own nests and serve the interests of those providing the feathers. I get pissed with them at times and very salty and sarcastic, but see the problem as people with emotions, vast majority of us, assuming everyone else is the same way too, then getting caught out by those who lack emotion and empathy or are operating with a reduced set and find it easier to ascend to positions of power, dominance and love humiliating and micromanaging people they consider to be their lessers, us.
@mister_rz wrote:
While New Zealand is doing a great job, it is not the case that how poorly a country has responded is simply a matter of the oligarchic or authoritarian tendencies of the nations’ leaders.
For example, Spain, Italy, France, Belgium, Sweden all have (a lot) more deaths per million than the U.S. (which has responded idiotically at the federal level). China (which is strongly authoritarian) has among the fewest deaths per million.
Side note: in the U.S., things would be a lot worse if it weren’t for California (where almost 1/7th of the country’s population lives) and a few other states having sheltered in place when they did.
Max the funny thing is you have the sort of character that would of been attracted to the top rebel that was jesus, if you were contemporaries, I could see you being a rival and secret admirer, that’s indeed if he existed or just represents the rebel spirit after a series of rebels came along only to be crushed by those they rebelled against.
What’s come after with his followers is a different matter, doesn’t help that the major introduction for most europeans to christianity came via the romans, ones who killed the christ man, nailed him to a cross, made an example of him, then had the temerity to blame the jews, jesus’ kinfolk. People that can disassociate to such a degree aren’t going to be practicing a healthy form of christianity.
I had a time being atheist when I was younger, questioned all the bullshit I saw in the religions I grew up in and others. But I struggled as much being an atheist as I did trying to believe in religion, my mind finds flaws, then asks questions, when I ask them out loud I get fobbed off.
The interesting thing for me tho is what’s fucked religion up is exactly the same thing that’s fucking things up today, people manipulating whatever the power base is of the time for their own gain. We’re at an inflection point and I wonder will we just collectively try and reduce the influence and control over what’s dominating us at this moment, some believe it’s the government others corporations, like we did with religion and monarchy. Or will enough see that the problem lies with people, some of whom are very manipulative, callous, indifferent and have excellent skills in reading people and warping reality. Others, who can’t see passed the illusion as it’s become too familiar, strangely reassuring and the thought of it not being there causes anxiety and fear.
When I look at the situation in the states, one of the things about the oligarch class over there is they have no equals in other countries, most of the oligarch class of other countries are subordinate to the americans. Look at the arch of history after ww2 and how america came to be the sole empire on the planet, basically choosing the governments of other countries, even in formal colonial powers, not many places of importance geopolitically on this planet don’t have american military bases.
Then when I explore the way in the states there has been a systematic dismantling of the civilian side of government, healthcare, most safety nets, regulation agencies, hostile takeover of the judiciary, branches of government, hostility towards education especially at the higher levels, re-segregation of schools and also not government related, subversion of the media, especially new media online. Most the people behind this are just ultra wealthy individuals, their think tanks, associations, collectives like the cfr and cnp, people who have been educated and indoctrinated to put their needs first, in a koch sponsored economics class for example.
While your state and a few others have handled this better then some, if this gradual undermining process that’s been happening for decades, but speeded up in recent times, especially under trump, hadn’t happened, then I could see america even tho it is large and unwieldy responding far more affectively as a whole. Scientists and their work that might get in the way of an established markets get discredited, then vilified, regulation gets seen as an impediment to growth, agencies and other branches of government disbanded, all under the guise of fiscal responsibility, health care being profit driven etc, etc has hindered the response.
I see this all as oligarchs trying to make sure nothing impinges on their ability to do as they please and make as much as they like, by taking out anything that might challenge their power and give people outside their class, confidence and independence, trumps response to this crisis, comes across as a man who’s beholden to those who put him in office.
God is watching you and knows what’s in your heart.
@mister_rz : I think you misunderstood my point. I was pointing out that there is not a direct relation between how oligarchic a country or region is and how successfully they have responded to the virus. The data simply doesn’t support that.
Look, I am deeply disturbed by and critical of the politics of the U.S. but your postulation that successful responses to the virus are the domain of non-oligarchies is not supported by the facts.
@espiegel123
I see oligarchs as those with extreme wealth, who can’t help interfering and slanting the table in their favour, people who have a certain psychological makeup, that trends towords personality disorders, don’t think all wealthy people are a problem, or the problems are down to one tiny class, just making myself clear as I have the tendency to ramble.
The data simply don’t show a direct link between how well countries have responded to the pandemic and how oligarchic they are. That’s all. I am strongly opposed to oligarchy, btw. IMO, the data just don’t support your theory that successful pandemic response is a function of countries being oligarchies or not.
Trump bashing gets very old and tired, to me. It is naive to believe he makes all of the decisions anyway. Media is the problem, IMO.
The latest right-wing talking point is to make as much noise as possible about model inaccuracies (as if models were perfect predictors of future events) and to claim COVID deaths are being overcounted.
But then ignore the actual data, such as this:
I think there is a connection, as oligarchs don’t have empathy to fellow human beings. When this hits africa the countries that will be in the worse shape to deal with it, will be those who have been exploited the most (with other factors, granted like population density etc), especially by the imf and their insistence on cutting education, health care and other safety nets to pay off loans, where do you spose that ideology comes from, as it’s strangely close to racketeering.
Might not mean they have the biggest casualties, but countries that have better accessible healthcare, more robust education systems etc, are in a better position to cope if things spiral. The most powerful faction of oligarchs on the planet are still the anglo-americans, I cant think of any nations that are classed as advanced, dealing with this so, so horribly then the us and england.
Both our countries are behind the curve time wise still of many other advanced nations and our curves are steeper. We both have advanced biotech industries and research centres, so why outside of greed and incompetence are our countries handling this so poorly? Both our countries also do preparation tests for these scenarios and have recently, both are sposed to have protocols in place to deal with pandemics, why wasn’t any of this enacted by our respective main governments?
Even if your state keeps up the good work, other lax states, which are less populated, behind in the infection spread and governed poorly, could reinfect yours and others. My point as I am responding to yours is your country has been taken over by stealth and mine is heading in the same direction, by the same people, these people have a very old fashioned malthusian view of the world, which has impacted the response of our nations.
No, media is not the problem. That's falling for the talking points. What is "media" anyway? News and reporters aren't the probelm - they're reporting on the facts as best as possible. The facts just suck for many, like Trump (who, incidentally, wouldn't know a fact if it hit him in his face). Opinion and entertainment can be problematic, especially when masquerading as news. Lumping the two together doesn't benefit anyone but those who want to control the narrative, because it automatically equates facts with opinion, and makes both meaningless. One of those (facts, to be clear), is decidedly NOT meaningless - but those who want to control the narrative want you to think that, and become conditioned to hearing it, and start thinking it yourself.
Please note: I'm not mentioning any specific network, newspaper, etc. etc. in the above.
But now I will.
FOX really helped destroy things. It started blurring the lines a lot more strongly than any network ever had - and it worked, because people found opinion more entertaining than facts. So more people watch. So then the other networks had to follow suit or go out of business. Is it FOX that's at fault, or the audience? I'd say mostly FOX, but definitely the audience, too. But, yes, CNN, MSNBC, and many others blur the line now (FOX more than most, and the most often).
Back to the OT...
@richardyot I remember reading a piece several weeks ago predicting that this very thing would occur, where, because people did the right thing by listening to the models, that they would suddenly start to question those very same models that predicted what would happen as well as the people who made them. Wish I could remember where I saw that. Sure enough, it, like the predictive models, seems to be coming true.
Max you’re a bad bad beaver, I won’t be able to sleep later.
The U.K. has posted the highest daily death toll in Europe so far, and those are only counting hospital deaths. Deaths at home or in care homes etc are not included in the official figures, so it’s a real shitshow.
One of the things that kills me about the “you see this hasn’t been such a big deal” argument is that the reason it isn’t a big deal is that a huge percentage of the world has shut itself down and prevented the worst case. They somehow miss that a lot of people are dying even with shutdowns and that th8ngs would be exponentially worse without them.
I still can’t tell if the “this has been overblown” pundits are ignorant and believe what they are saying or are nefarious and self-centered and driven by some strange motives.
A friend of mine reminds me periodically: most people don’t get math(s).
Maybe they can’t extrapolate out from what has happened with shut downs to what might have been. (Worst case still possible if we don’t follow-up wisely)
Media report the facts? That's laughable. I'm apolitical, and even I can see that. That's just my opinion.
Models are just mathematical guesswork, nothing more. They are totally reliant on the data and assumptions that are fed into them. Arguing over their predictions is a waste of time.
However the events unfolding in New York are real. Nitpicking over them is either dumb or evil or both.
To be honest I’m getting depressed but feel compelled to keep up with the news, think it will take awhile to get a clearer picture of all the damage this will cause. I wonder what happened to all the old people who had nowhere to go before the crisis and were kept on hospital wards, I remember a few from when I was in hospital years back.
@Max23: you are mistaken in treating the U.S. as a monolith.
The U.S. is no more monolithic than Europe.
While at a Federal level things have screwed up -- our most populous states are as big as European countries and the responses from state to state have been very variable. One-Seventh of the country lives in a state that has had the virus as long as Germany and is doing statistically better. California and Germany had their first cases around the same time. If you look at the statistics, California is faring even better than Germany.
You overgeneralize and mischaracterize the situation. Our states are more equivalent to European countries than to German states or if you are being intentionally obtuse.
At the federal level, really bad decisions have been made -- but on a regional level we have very similar variation to Europe -- some states are doing well and some terribly.
Your un-nuanced generalizations are off-base, imo.
And, yes, our healthcare system is terrible, but that is a wholly different matter.
Of course, maybe SARS-CoV-2 is actually the superior organism, and deserves to win so easily, and we’re all merely on the incorrect side.
There are a lot of great targets out there. Let's skip the food fights. We are different in many dimensions. I will be sitting at your table lobbing tomatoes at the fanatics too in a real food fight. But vent outwards. This reads as something too personal. That makes for the most entrenched and ugly food fights using slingshots.