Piano Motifs by Fernando Morales

yowza

@McD said:
Rozeta Scalar can take a MIDI stream and force all notes into a selected key. So, hand editing won't be required. I'm sure Fernando is writing the smartest algorhythms he can think of while insuring the melodies are as random (or unique) as possible.

Just keep calling up melodies until you get one worth saving or hand edit for perfection.
Overall it's very good and more musical than most of the generator type apps. But creativity and something everyone would like is a tough balancing act.

I already do edit the MIDI files I export.

I'm sure some things I asked for will be impossible or very hard to implement but if I don't ask, I won't know since I'm not a coder. Maybe Fernando already has some of these things in the pipeline and maybe some of these things are easy but he never thought to implement them before now. He did say he appreciates the feedback and has gotten ideas for future updates from this forums so...

Please don't take offense as your presence here is often very helpful but you have a tendency to be the Audiobus forum whisperer and interpret things for everyone as if we're not capable of figuring it out on our own.

McD

@yowza said:
Please don't take offense as your presence here is often very helpful but you have a tendency to be the Audiobus forum whisperer and interpret things for everyone as if we're not capable of figuring it out on our own.

My efforts are well intended but I'm sure I crosses over into condescension. I tend to write simply for the exercise of forming decent sentences and I generally fail due to poor typing skills and a lack of rigorous editing: sometimes less is more but less takes more than twice the time to craft.

The audiobus "whisperer"... I'm writing as loud as I can.

"Interpreting things" seems fair. Takes the parts you can use and ignore the rest.

Might be time for a break.

Edward_Alexander

Loving the update Fernando!

and McD’s new nickname lol

yowza

@McD said:
My efforts are well intended but I'm sure I crosses over into condescension. I tend to write simply for the exercise of forming decent sentences and I generally fail due to poor typing skills and a lack of rigorous editing: sometimes less is more but less takes more than twice the time to craft.

The audiobus "whisperer"... I'm writing as loud as I can.

"Interpreting things" seems fair. Takes the parts you can use and ignore the rest.

Might be time for a break.

Please don't take a break on my behalf, I don't know what I'm talking about. I immediately regretted typing that and almost came back and edited it out.

You are a great asset to this forum whereas I mostly lurk (and learn!) and occasionally post something I shouldn't. Please ignore me and
carry on!

Gavinski

This is the kind of polite exchange of different opinions, and ability to apologise when necessary, that shows this forum in its best light. Sure we all say things we regret from time to time as we churn out comments at speed, the main thing is to patch things up quickly.

From what I know of Fernando, he will greatly value Yowza's highly informed suggestions.

SNystrom

Yes, @yowza,

Professor McD is truly a great forum asset, and he's right:

He has poor typing skills and can be condescending at times, but that's a big part of what makes him a vital forum contributor!

I've gleaned so much knowledge from McD that I dutifully refer to him as "the Professor."
There are few musical topic that he doesn't have at least a cursory insight to, and so many that he has an incredibly deep knowledge of.

When you see a post by McD, prepare to be enlightened!

yowza

Again I profusely apologize to @McD who is most assuredly very knowledgeable about many things that I'm not. I do often read what he says when I can but my own lack of time and short attention span causes me to very often "take the parts you can use and ignore the rest" as he suggested.

I tend to dip in and out of the forum during the day in short bursts and can't sit still to read long posts or threads and rarely post myself. Hypocritically my previous post above was very long winded so I guess I should take my own advice.

McD

@yowza said:
Again I profusely apologize to @McD

No problems... I always open to learning. And I know I can be over earnest and when my first
pass at communication seems to fail I double down and keep explaining.

SNystrom

Oh @yowza, I hope you didn't take my comment as an attack on you.

I was just thoughtfully (hopefully) expressing my appreciation of McD's long list of incredibly informative postings over these many years.

And please don't let that prevent you from posting comments in the future.

Our forum is always stronger when we all must consider a plethora of various opinions. We are also strong enough to consider those opinions that might perhaps go against our standard concepts.

yowza

@SNystrom said:
Oh @yowza, I hope you didn't take my comment as an attack on you.

I didn't take it that way at all. I felt bad enough about it all on my own.

McD always has something helpful to add whereas I rarely do which is why I don't post very often (along with my lack of time).

Hopefully Fernando will pipe in at some point and tell me whether any of my ideas are even possible but regardless Piano Motifs will still be an awesome app!

McD

I love a good food fight. We can't really inflict real pain. (Not that I won't try).
Every comment is a chance to learn something if even if it's "has anyone ever called you an asshole?" Sure. "OK. How many times is this then?" Too many to count. Still, I persist.

SNystrom

Hahaha!!!

Luv me some McD!!! 😂

SNystrom

Also, thank you for starting this new "Meet the Artist" series!

Excellent idea and I've already learned a great deal!

Might I humbly suggest a "Meet the app Developer" series???

It would definitely help us increase our connection with our awesome iOS app creators!

king_picadillo

McD

@SNystrom said:
Might I humbly suggest a "Meet the app Developer" series???

That would be cool. I can ask to see see if any of them will use this opportunity in
"social networking". It also allows them to avoid the real work typing precise coded instructions that require exacting precision.

Poppadocrock

@yowza said:
Really loving all the updates, great job Fernando!

I'm not the world's authority on music theory but I have been a student of it for years and I'm noticing as more scales and modes are getting added to PM, I'm hearing what I consider "wrong" notes creeping in that weren't there in earlier versions so I'm trying to figure out what's going on. I'm not sure where secondary dominants are being used in PM's progressions but it's my understanding you're not going to typically see secondary dominants used in modal chord progressions. Secondary dominants are usually going to be seen in major or minor key progressions. I get more musical results when I restrict the scale to major or minor but when I pick one of the other modal scales that's often where the weird notes start to creep in.

As it is now if I export a midi file and there are notes I consider wrong, I just delete those notes and leave all the rest. I really like PM so I don't mean this to sound harsh at all I'm just trying to figure out where the wrong notes (outside the key) are coming from.

Stating the obvious here but C major (Ionian) and D dorian are the same scale so your perception of which scale it is will be based on whether there is a strong bass note (C bass for C major, D bass for D dorian) or whether a C major chord or D minor chord are being emphasized in the accompaniment. Modal chord progressions really need to emphasis the modes bass note or root chord as home base and don't have the typical V chord to I chord cadence found in major and minor keys. You don't want to play the I chord of the major key that the mode is derived from. Another example of this: a typical E Phrygian chord progression would be using Em to F to G emphasizing and resolving on the root chord E minor but if you play a C chord anywhere, your ear will perceive it all as C major which has the same notes as E Phrygian. Phrygian mode typically has the minor Spanish flamenco sound.

Here is my wish list for future updates:

1 iCloud or Files access OR the ability to export multiple MIDI files at once. I bought the MIDI IAP but I'm finding I still want to export MIDI to my DAW rather than send it out via MIDI to another app. I often send files to Logic on my Mac.

2 Faster tempos than 150 BPM

3 Real minor key chord progressions (using the harmonic minor scale for the satisfying V7 to I minor cadence, (G7 to C minor for the key of C Minor)

4 More variety in chord progressions using more chords per progression and longer strings of different chords. I was going to post links to some webpages about chord progressions but there are so many out there, if you google modal chord progressions there is a lot to work with. I don't hear many of the typical I IV V or I vim IV V major key progressions which have been overused but I'm surprised I don't hear them pop up in PM very often at all.

5 More time signatures including 5, 6 and 7 beats per measure (I realize this might over complicate things)

Sorry for the long winded post! Please don't take any of this as criticism. I love Piano Motifs!!

I'm happy to beta test if you ever need feedback!

I like #4 for sure. Seems to be a lot of 4 chorders, which is cool, but be good to see some 8 and 16 ones too, or variations in the 4 chords so every 4 isn’t the same....

Gavinski

Also - Yowza is right that there seem to be bum notes more than I would like, I have been noticing this too. Sure you can generate another one, or modify in a daw etc, but it is worth having a discussion about why this is happening and whether it could be fixed.

Gavinski

Loving the extended bar lengths, and the Phrygian mode by the way @azul3D_Apps . Being able to have a longer evolution of a motif is so great. The app is really going from strength to strength.

Mayo

As Yowza put forth - I would LOVE to have harmonic minor to work with

azul3D_Apps

@yowza, thanks for the feedback and suggestions you have provided.

As I have been further developing Piano Motifs I have been getting deeper into music theory and definitely there are always things that can be fixed and enhanced. Like @McD put it, it is definitely a tough balancing act.

Even though secondary dominant chords were intended to only go in the Major scale progressions (to be added later to minor progressions), they slipped into the Lydian scale mode. This will be fixed in the next revision.

The melody algorithms do sparingly throw in some out of scale notes to add variability, richness, and spice things up. They are normally embellishing tones from the secondary dominant of the chord being played, the minor seventh as an anticipation tone, or if a borrowed chord is being played, notes from that chord. As you are aware, sometimes out of scale notes work and sometimes they don't (it could even be a subjective matter) and it can be hard to control algorithmically when there are so many constrained random parameters in play. Maybe there could be a mode where all notes are kept in scale, but a lot of constraining will lead to boring, repetitive sound. It would be great if you could send me a couple of examples in MIDI format at [email protected] pointing some glaring issues so I can take a closer look.

On the file saving front, you can currently save an audio or MIDI file to your device or iCloud when you press the Save to Files option after pressing the Share/Export button. Multiple file save would have to be implemented in the Library screen.

On chord progressions, the I, IV, V, and vi chords are being used in many preset Major chord progressions with combinations of all of them or some of them, so I don't know what could be happening there (my calculations say that they should show up 25% of the time if you are generating motifs in the Major scale). Piano Motifs does implement 8,10,12 and 16 preset chord progressions. In fact, in the preset Major chord progressions about 62% are 4 chord progressions and 38% have a higher number of chords. The natural evolution of Piano Motifs development will lead to a point where the user will be able to set their own chord progressions if they want to. Not promising anything soon, but eventually it will happen.

I will definitely look into all the feature requests you provided for future revisions.
Thanks

McD

I went a little crazy using Piano Motif as the generator for all the music in this track except for the drummer and one cello that I manually added.

The workflow was complicated:

• I exported 2 Piano Motif 16 bar MIDI files
• I then imported all that MIDI into StaffPad and assign instruments and manually added a Cello line

Then I export the StaffPad Orchestra parts as audio stems into Cubasis 3

I create a 16 bar drum loop in Funk Drummer and imported that into Cubasis 3 and mixed everything down to an audio file

I added the audio file in a file player in AUM and started another Piano Motif session for the opener section

Lot's of FX and plumbing tricks in AUM for a final mix track and uploaded to SoundCloud.

I really need to learn how to use Side Chaining somewhere in the process to keep it from getting so muddy but I can tell I'm onto something.

NOTE: The WRONG NOTES are intentional to create a sinister effect. I could have kept generating Piano Motifs or adjusted all the off notes in StaffPad but
I wanted to show that Piano Motif's capability to push outside the envelope is
NOT a bad thing. I suspect Fernando could make the outside notes optional overtime so you can dial in the madness required.

McD

@azul3D_Apps said:
@yowza, thanks for the feedback and suggestions you have provided.

As I have been further developing Piano Motifs I have been getting deeper into music theory

I think we've only scratched the surface of what this work could become. Personally, I think you're really on to something great here. Some of those "wrong notes" are golden... some are just wrong but that judgement is also very individual.

I'm going to keep looking at ways to use your app as a generator for large scale works
that "influence people" and make them think I must be very talented. I will then work hard to
sustain that illusion and sign autographs without disclosing who the real genius is Fernando.

Making music with your app is not unlike making montages from magazines or newspapers.
The act of selection and composition is still a very creative act... even if you do feel a bit like a poser. We will all make different montages that represent our aesthetic. What you leave out is as important as what you include in a montage.

Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

@McD said:
I went a little crazy using Piano Motif as the generator for all the music in this track except for the drummer and one cello that I manually added.

The workflow was complicated:

• I exported 2 Piano Motif 16 bar MIDI files
• I then imported all that MIDI into StaffPad and assign instruments and manually added a Cello line

Then I export the StaffPad Orchestra parts as audio stems into Cubasis 3

I create a 16 bar drum loop in Funk Drummer and imported that into Cubasis 3 and mixed everything down to an audio file

I added the audio file in a file player in AUM and started another Piano Motif session for the opener section

Lot's of FX and plumbing tricks in AUM for a final mix track and uploaded to SoundCloud.

I really need to learn how to use Side Chaining somewhere in the process to keep it from getting so muddy but I can tell I'm onto something.

NOTE: The WRONG NOTES are intentional to create a sinister effect. I could have kept generating Piano Motifs or adjusted all the off notes in StaffPad but
I wanted to show that Piano Motif's capability to push outside the envelope is
NOT a bad thing. I suspect Fernando could make the outside notes optional overtime so you can dial in the madness required.

I don’t hear any wrong notes. They all sound good to me.

McD

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
I don’t hear any wrong notes. They all sound good to me.

Repetition helps convince the listener that that weird note is intentional.
Miles Davis said "There are no wrong notes... if the note that follows is the right note."

Listeners just want to believe it wasn't an accident. Own those "clams". Use the tar tar
on 'em.

Gavinski

@McD said:

@azul3D_Apps said:
@yowza, thanks for the feedback and suggestions you have provided.

As I have been further developing Piano Motifs I have been getting deeper into music theory

I think we've only scratched the surface of what this work could become. Personally, I think you're really on to something great here. Some of those "wrong notes" are golden... some are just wrong but that judgement is also very individual.

I'm going to keep looking at ways to use your app as a generator for large scale works
that "influence people" and make them think I must be very talented. I will then work hard to
sustain that illusion and sign autographs without disclosing who the real genius is Fernando.

Making music with your app is not unlike making montages from magazines or newspapers.
The act of selection and composition is still a very creative act... even if you do feel a bit like a poser. We will all make different montages that represent our aesthetic. What you leave out is as important as what you include in a montage.

I really agree with this McD. It takes an ear to choose the good ones and develop the ideas. I loved the motif that I used in my Reelbus vid today, so beautiful on those choral sounds and strings

JimP4nsen

@azul3D_Apps Thanks for another great update!

Internally you already have the chord progressions used for the melodies, right? Would it be possible to also output the chords into the MIDI file (maybe optional as a third track)?

McD

@JimP4nsen said:
Would it be possible to also output the chords into the MIDI file (maybe optional as a third track)?

Having that information would open up a lot of possibilities, right?

How about a feature that is based upon you inputing the chord progression with some precision?

For fans of this approach to building tracks of music there are several apps that deliver on
these ideas:

Session Band - uses live studio musician recordings so the results are stunning
iRealPro - toy synthesized instruments so the results are not great but hundreds of tunes are out there in their cloud
iBassist - integrates with the LumBeats Drummers... chordal tracks a so, so. Getting better.
One Man Band - an auto-accompainiest that reacts to realtime chord guides

there's a slew of chord creation/progression apps and of course the Arp, Sequencing functions that made EDM work when computers were 8-bit toys.

Desktop - Band in a Box - the pioneer of this app type with massive add-on suites.

JimP4nsen

Right, I’m more of the „how can we fit this all together“ type
I use the melodies from this app and build everything else around it.
But currently I get too stuck in experimenting and don’t finish any tracks 🙈

For basslines I tend to use Ripplemaker or PureAcid (I’m more into electronic music). Both these apps produce great basslines.

McD

@JimP4nsen said:
But currently I get too stuck in experimenting and don’t finish any tracks 🙈

You're not stuck... you're addicted to the endorphins. Stimulus -> Response.

We only need to finish tracks if someone cares. That's why committing to a Collaboration
can totally change you're workflow. Someone is waiting for me to finish this and I want to
hold up my end.

For basslines I tend to use Ripplemaker or PureAcid (I’m more into electronic music). Both these apps produce great basslines.

I want to hear some of these tracks using these specific tools. I'll be cool. Trust me.
I have both those tools and would like to see how it might fit.

hes

@JimP4nsen said:
@azul3D_Apps Thanks for another great update!

Internally you already have the chord progressions used for the melodies, right? Would it be possible to also output the chords into the MIDI file (maybe optional as a third track)?

Or even just the chords in an optional separate (i.e., second) midi file? All chords in root position.