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Ukraine
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Steinberg needs to invade Blip Int. and place audio tracks in Nanostudio 2.
It's been with the Crimean Tatars for even longer - more than 300 years.
It wasn't a fair election, whatever else it may have been. I suspect that if it had been a fair election it would have probably gone the same way as the Crimeans never wanted to be part of the Ukraine, but Putin didn't want to chance that and so we'll never know.
Most of the border regions have never really been asked what they wanted. Some may have gone with independence, others probably wouldn't. It doesn't help that you have ethnic Russians living next to the Russian border in states that are very Russo-phobic (e.g. Georgia, Ukraine). Obviously Russia exploits this to their advantage, but nobody's forcing the Georgians or Ukrainians to alienate their minorities. The Ukrainian elite, faced with a choice between racism and stability, chose racism. And here we are.
God knows Putin is not a nice guy - look how he treated his nominal ally Armenia recently when they were invaded by Azerbaijan (backed by NATO ally Turkey). But that doesn't make the Ukrainians the good guys either. It's a state run by feuding oligarchs who've been looting the country since independence, where they've made an alliance with neo-Nazis in order to cement their power/fight an unnecessary civil war. The country's an economic basket case whose population has been declining rapidly for years - and none of that's Putin's fault.
Also it's weird for the US to lecture anyone when they're illegally occupying Syrian oil fields for some reason. Almost as if none of this is about morality, but is just power games.
Ah, the classic position when one has no clue what’s really going on… it must be racism!
I'm from Ukraine and its so strange to read this type of thread on AB
Currently living there or currently living elsewhere?
What’s your point of view about what’s happening there?
Not to criticize anyone involved in today‘s events I‘d like to criticize my own country‘s behavior that I believe plays a role in what happens today. Back in 1998, the west felt as the big winner of the cold war - the so called „end of history“. NATO decided to bomb Serbia without a UN mandate - a clear violation of international law. Later on most western countries recognized the independence of Kosovo - another clear violation of international law. My country, Germany, sent troops into war for the first time after WWII. A pivotal moment in German history. I felt ashamed that we gave up our „defence only“ doctrine for an unjust war that broke international law that was most probably nothing more than a move on the big chess board to push back the Russian influence in the Balkans. In these dark days a lot of critics including me were warning that this will destroy the respect for international law, that the Russians, Serbias old ally, will not forget it. Today I see how these fears and predictions unfold. Now we don’t have the moral position to be outraged about Russias actions and this is very sad. They simply do what we did back then: trampling on the international law.
Utterly grim. Ukraine have a significantly large army. Desperate.
Bring on the revolution. The world needs change. How can all the famine, war, terror etc be decided at the behest of few people. The world is sick and the prognosis is very poor.
Add to this the shortsighted decision of the German government to make Germany so dependent on Russia for fuel and trade ensures they will remain quiet, lest Russia shut off the heat and Germans all freeze.
@NeuM Yeah, live in ua. All I can say is geopolitics is a very dirty and inhumane game. The quality of living in my country will definitely worsen even more. I will buy less apps
Ordinary people are the ones who pay the price for this stuff. I hope things get better.
I live in russia and hope we won't get ourselves cut off from buying apps as a concept — as in 'no connection to international banking'. or the sovereign internet law or another bs like that.
You must know that Germany relies on Russian gas for a long time. It had never been a problem and they delivered the gas even in periods of high tension during the cold war. Moreover Russia needs the money. There is simply no reason to doubt in that. There are also other sources of gas. TBH the US is overemphasizing this because they want to sell their much more expensive fracking gas.
This so true. The powerful countries play their „grand game“ and the ordinary people have to suffer the consequences. Sometimes only for a small strategic move on the chess board. This makes me so sad and so angry.
Germany has coil pants and nuclear power stations (currently deactivated) but have backup in case of natural gas shortage
Am I right @krassmann ? I think both nuclear and coil can supply energy needed
@yug
Lol, are you going to base the merrits of WW3, or just a bloody civil war on semantics?
What I ment with 1000 years was a long time.
I actually know about the Russian Ottaman war that ceded Crimea to Russia. Do you know why i diden’t mention it? Because I’m actually a pretty sympathetic guy that doesn't dismantle points over semantics, especially moral ones.
Crimea has been with Russia for 250 years, minus the time since the 1991 when the USSR split. The 250 year old navy base stayed.
What do you think about that?
What do you think about the coup government in 2014 removing Russian from schools in Ukraine?
How would you feel if you were not allowed to take classes in your mother tongue where your family have lived forever?
It is not a matter of Putin or USA, there are powerful moral over and undertones here,
Everyone agrees that another election about annexation by the people living there would go the same way today. Do you believe the people affected by a law should be the people making the decision about it?
@cian
Everybody agrees an election would have gone the same way today. FFS 700.000 Russian speaking Ukrainians just crossed over to Russia to be safe. Do you think it’s just a joke, that those people were not persecuted in their own country after Maidan?
You don’t think a predominantly Russian area would go with Russia when the coup removed the language from it’s schools?
"When elephants fight, ants get killed."
From a non NATO country bordering Russia
The relevant passages for those who don't want to read the entire thread on Twitter
@yug + you equating the 400 years prior to Russia having Crimea as to be equal to what the standing is now,, hey maybe the US should go back to England?
Ofc the living present is what matters. It’s only 30 years ago this area was part of the heartland of the USSR. I’d go Makhno over Lenin any day but like, think of the
700.000 Russian ethnic Ukrainians that just crossed the border to Russia, lets not give a fuck about them?
Everything you’ve ever learned makes up only half of your education—the other half is everything you’ve failed to learn.
Michael Lipsey
We are all dead men on leave
Eugene Levine
What is and or is likely to happen
None of us gets out of here alive
Old, fat, (insert adjective here) guys… Better?
That may all be true. But the election still wasn't a fair one.
Russia bad,
Ukrainian Russians bad.
Western friendly coup good
and
We are all just a very small part of someone else’s multibillion dollar paycheck.
Me
@cian and it was fair to be persecuted in your own country for speaking Russian? What was not fair about the election, you think the people living there did not want it?
Was the coup and resulting anti russian policies fair?
Ah, come on. Critical thinking, common sense… ring any bells? 700K people, 35 per one bus. You gonna need 20000 buses. That’s an impossible amount
You shouldn’t really believe everything they claim, unless of course your goal is to spread lies and propaganda. Anyway, I’m not gonna waste my time arguing with you
Tell us more, Vasily. I mean, you’re there. Most of us are not.
@cian, your post educated me, I think, at least in a cogent point of view.
I’m totally ignorant on this so here are my questions…
1.Why has the word “racism” been used here?
2.Does the Sudetenland have any relevance?
3. Why say Ukraine is worthless? (20% of grain for former USSR, 25% industrial output)
4. Why talk about the wishes of “the people” when most agree Putin is an autocrat? Clearly this is one guy trying to control millions. Sure he has Allies and henchman. That’s the way of autocrats (or any politician
5. How can we say anything positive about the US role in world politics that isn’t tainted by US eliteism, corrupt power hungry individuals, billionairism and sheer stupidity/lunacy?
6. What’s gonna happen when Texas wants to secede from the Union?
Anyway, I suggest you all come over to the terminal laughter thread (shameless self promotion from a hit hungry thread spinning musical autocrat). That’s where the real action is… Cause when decent people’s Bentleys and Porsches are going up in flames… at a time when it’s almost impossible for a decent person to get a decent car to run more than a decent 200,000 miles… well, need I say more?
as a matter of fact, yes, I do need to say more… is there the minutest reason to think/believe today is any different from yesterday or tomorrow? Clearly morality, justice and ethical behavior are not on a learning curve when it comes to Homo Sapiens. Especially when 90% of the “Good Guys” will probably flip to the Dark Side when someone wants to enter their private fallout shelter or encroach on their food supply. Cynical, I know, but historically true, I think. The only succor lies in absurdism. The only “ism” worth fighting for!