Ukraine

NeuM

@Poppadocrock said:

@Ted_Pikul said:

@Agatha_aga said:
I'm from Ukraine and its so strange to read this type of thread on AB

I have family there, and I am constantly worrying about what might happen. Guys, let’s put aside these political discussions and support anyone who may be caught up in this senseless violence. War is hell, not something to make clever quips about on social media.

Agreed. I’m > @NeuM said:

@McD said:
I think if you had to pick a single word biography for Vladimir Putin, I'd choose "spymaster".

A spymaster works entirely outside of international legal or moral/ethical frameworks to advice a country's position in the world.

The single word I'd have to place on Joe Biden might be "alterboy" with a strong sense of moral code and service to a higher purpose.

A former US Spymaster has a good take on the long game Spymaster Putin is likely pursuing:

https://newlinesmag.com/reportage/a-cia-cold-warrior-on-the-intelligence-war-over-ukraine/

This game will should several decades.

I'd assign no such honor to Biden. There are enough mentions in Hunter Biden's emails about his father and the suggestion he was getting kickbacks from China to warrant an investigation into both of them. And by the way, this investigation into Hunter's business entanglements started in 2019 and still hasn't concluded.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/fbi-investigating-hunter-biden-for-money-laundering-report/

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/what-we-know-about-hunter-bidens-deal-with-a-chinese-energy-company/

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/09/politics/hunter-biden-tax-investigtation/index.html

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/secret-service-agents-intervened-in-hunter-biden-gun-incident-report/ar-BB1eXprk

I’m not sure why I’m even posting in this thread, I’ve tried to avoid it until now. I highly respect you, and all involved, But I wanted to mention a couple things. 1. this didn’t happen overnight, it’s been many years in the making, and no one single person or action, particularly from the US, is the cause of this international situation. there are many factors involved, and they happened over a long period of time. 2. the current administration is basically a bunch of alter boys compared to the crimes, alleged crimes, fraud, scandals, unethical, & immoral behavior of the previous one.

It’s ok we don’t see eye to eye. We all need to try to find the middle ground more often. try not to be so divisive, myself included. I know this is an important topic, and hits home to many on here. I just wish this type of content was maybe separate from the main feed, or able to be sorted out, or even discussed on other platforms. Not trying to censor at all, but there are many, many places to discuss these things, and the ab forum should be a safe space. My hope is that the ab forum continues to bring people together, not divide them.

On a side note. It’s kind of ironic that there was just an interesting thread discussing the “state” of the forum, and a few days later out comes an OT Political thread.

I’m OK with disagreements. Disagreeing doesn’t mean being disagreeable.

vasilymilovidov

@wim said:
Sucks that a thread about the Ukraine has to turn into a thread mostly about US politics. I'm kinda interested in what's going on over there and why myself.

this is normal, even in russia they usually turn into threads about US politics

cian

@NeuM said:
Wow. It’s possible to draw so many incorrect conclusions just in one post. Mind-boggling.

Criticism of Biden is well earned. Putin is running circles around him at the expense of the American people. Biden should be impeached and kicked out of office.

How are the 'American people' affected by any of this? Regardless of whether the US should do this, the US could give Putin everything he's ever asked for and it would have zero affect on US citizens who don't do business in the region.

There's a deal to be done with Putin, and many of his demands are entirely reasonable. The less reasonable stuff - well that's why you negotiate. The problem is that the US doesn't want to negotiate on this stuff because they want Russia to capitulate, abandon having an independent foreign policy on stuff like Syria and to basically run their extraction industries for US benefit. If Russia was still being run by a puppet like Yeltsin they'd have given the Ukraine to Russia in a heartbeat.

Incidentally the most egregious example of a country using warfare to change their borders in the region was Azerbaijan who attacked Armenia (with heavy Turkish support). Noone talks about that for some reason. Just as nobody seems to bothered by the US occupation of the Syrian oilfields.

Gravitas

@wim said:
Sucks that a thread about the Ukraine has to turn into a thread mostly about US politics. I'm kinda interested in what's going on over there and why myself.

Exactly.

I’m been restraining myself and I’m going to try to continue doing so but I will say this.
Certain persons (sorry that should be singular) need to pull their egotistical patronising
heads out of their posteriors and realise that it’s not about them and they are not always right.
I suppose they like the confrontation.
Many on this forum or in actual fact in the rest of the world are rather concerned about the
denizens of the Ukraine and some of the Russians rather than the rest of the b.s myself included.
I have Artist friends who reside in both countries and they are facing looming death.
The last photo I saw of one my friends who resides in the Ukraine
before they opened fire on a kindergarten the other day is of her clutching her children.
The side effects of this “situation” has huge ramifications.
Military aircraft capable of carrying nuclear weapons have been seen close to other shores.
You know.
This could well be as serious that.
Nuclear warfare.
Fingers crossed Putin is not that dumb but Reagan almost was.
and if I remember correctly isn’t this a Worldwide forum?
and as it’s a worldwide forum it’s not only about US politics.

audiblevideo

@NeuM said:
Wow. It’s possible to draw so many incorrect conclusions just in one post. Mind-boggling.

Criticism of Biden is well earned. Putin is running circles around him at the expense of the American people. Biden should be impeached and kicked out of office.

Your less than adroit avoidance of ever answering a direct question is mind boggling. Impeached for what? The former guy deserved his impeachments (both of them)

I will admit my post was a bit hodge podge in its presentation. The point I was trying to make is the book author is WELL versed on Putin and his motives. The last video losely explains what Russia has been doing to democracies world-wide. Pump in disinformation, demoralize and de-stable then put in your flavor of authoritarianism.

It's exactly what Russia has done IN UKRAINE by promoting separatists who are Russian funded "dissidents" and occupying the territory that is NOT THEIRS.

The same playbook is being run here domestically. Disinformation, demoralize and de-stable then put in your flavor of authoritarianism. You don't get organized deliberate violent coup attempts from people inside a democracy unless people have been told lies, and unless the organizers and those who would benefit think that their propaganda worked.

I know you will reply with your usual, so I'll just wish you good travels now.

wim

@cian said:
Just as nobody seems to bothered by the US occupation of the Syrian oilfields.

Nor does anyone seem interested in the more than seven years long Yemen crisis, termed by the UN as the world's worst humanitarian disaster. So heartbreaking and no end in sight.

McD

If a political thread sneaks onto the forum it won’t open without your implicit participation.

I’d talk about this somewhere else if I could find a decent dialogue.

I hope those that are offended tune out and let us share perspectives.

Putin has a terrible track record for valuing human life… if no one stands up to this invasion of a neighbor then it will set a new standard for geo politics.

It’s NOT just the US. Really it’s most of the democratic leaning world. Democracy is a thing worth pushing for and Ukraine is struggling towards that goal.

NATO is a smoke screen.

PS the complaint about the forum boiled down to people being hall monitors for others starting threads… please avoid such threads. Insuring an efficient database is pointless in the age of search. iMHO.

audiblevideo

@McD said:
If a political thread sneaks onto the forum it won’t open without your implicit participation.

I’d talk about this somewhere else if I could find a decent dialogue.

I hope those that are offended tune out and let us share perspectives.

Putin has a terrible track record for valuing human life… if no one stands up to this invasion of a neighbor then it will set a new standard for geo politics.

It’s NOT just the US. Really it’s most of the democratic leaning world. Democracy is a thing worth pushing for and Ukraine is struggling towards that goal.

NATO is a smoke screen.

^^ THIS

wim

@vasilymilovidov said:

@wim said:
Sucks that a thread about the Ukraine has to turn into a thread mostly about US politics. I'm kinda interested in what's going on over there and why myself.

this is normal, even in russia they usually turn into threads about US politics

Ugh. That just makes me sick at heart.
None of these fools are even remotely worth people alienating one-another over.

McD

Are they gone? Who has the cards?

Gravitas

@wim said:

@cian said:
Just as nobody seems to bothered by the US occupation of the Syrian oilfields.

Nor does anyone seem interested in the more than seven years long Yemen crisis, termed by the UN as the world's worst humanitarian disaster. So heartbreaking and no end in sight.

There are currently between 40-48 on going conflicts worldwide at any one time.

Gravitas

@audiblevideo said:

@McD said:
If a political thread sneaks onto the forum it won’t open without your implicit participation.

I’d talk about this somewhere else if I could find a decent dialogue.

I hope those that are offended tune out and let us share perspectives.

Putin has a terrible track record for valuing human life… if no one stands up to this invasion of a neighbor then it will set a new standard for geo politics.

It’s NOT just the US. Really it’s most of the democratic leaning world. Democracy is a thing worth pushing for and Ukraine is struggling towards that goal.

NATO is a smoke screen.

^^ THIS

Agreed.

NeuM

@audiblevideo said:

@NeuM said:
Wow. It’s possible to draw so many incorrect conclusions just in one post. Mind-boggling.

Criticism of Biden is well earned. Putin is running circles around him at the expense of the American people. Biden should be impeached and kicked out of office.

Your less than adroit avoidance of ever answering a direct question is mind boggling. Impeached for what? The former guy deserved his impeachments (both of them)

I will admit my post was a bit hodge podge in its presentation. The point I was trying to make is the book author is WELL versed on Putin and his motives. The last video losely explains what Russia has been doing to democracies world-wide. Pump in disinformation, demoralize and de-stable then put in your flavor of authoritarianism.

It's exactly what Russia has done IN UKRAINE by promoting separatists who are Russian funded "dissidents" and occupying the territory that is NOT THEIRS.

The same playbook is being run here domestically. Disinformation, demoralize and de-stable then put in your flavor of authoritarianism. You don't get organized deliberate violent coup attempts from people inside a democracy unless people have been told lies, and unless the organizers and those who would benefit think that their propaganda worked.

I know you will reply with your usual, so I'll just wish you good travels now.

“The former guy”, as you call him, was not impeached. They tried to impeach him twice, but as you may be aware, an impeachment requires a majority of the House and most of the Senate. That didn’t happen.

“A simple majority of the House of Representatives (at least 218 votes) is required to impeach a U.S. President followed by a two-thirds majority vote in the Senate (at least 67 votes).”

And as the initial report from Durham has so clearly demonstrated, the charges against him were based on information which was fraudulent and they all knew it. Their actions were treasonous and they need to face life in prison for their attempted overthrow of the President.

https://www.reference.com/world-view/many-votes-impeach-president-668fabbe9a3b6c64

NeuM

@wim said:
Ukraine

Exactly.

sigma79

Just here for the nobel peace prize. Why not just turn these places that dont appear to be a nation or state now. Into tax havens with nice cars etc. Surely there wouldnt be conflict?

ExAsperis99

Facts matter. Trump was, in fact, impeached twice, the second time for inciting insurrection. He not was not convicted in either impeachment trial. Nonetheless, he was certainly impeached. I mean, is that just utter ignorance or magical thinking?

sigma79

Is there some sort of truth. The people living there might be ok with money. Tax havens set up. They exist anyway. I doubt there would be a war? You would just need to get Russian and Ukrainian billionaires to agree. Which Im sure they might. No tax. Cars etc close to home.

NeuM

@sigma79 said:
Just here for the nobel peace prize. Why not just turn these places that dont appear to be a nation or state now. Into tax havens with nice cars etc. Surely there wouldnt be conflict?

All countries should be tax havens. Then there would be no reason to hide one’s money elsewhere.

wim

People often confuse "impeachment" with "conviction and removal from office". Trump was impeached by the house (twice), but the senate acquitted him (which means they didn't convict and remove him from office). Nevertheless, he was impeached.

Same for Bill Clinton.

All of which is tremendously significant to the plight of Ukraine right now, of course.

sigma79

@NeuM said:

@sigma79 said:
Just here for the nobel peace prize. Why not just turn these places that dont appear to be a nation or state now. Into tax havens with nice cars etc. Surely there wouldnt be conflict?

All countries should be tax havens. Then there would be no reason to hide one’s money elsewhere.

Ok NeuM. Not even sure what I ment tbh.

vasilymilovidov

I'm willing to exchange Putin for Trump by the way.

NeuM

@wim said:
People often confuse "impeachment" with "conviction and removal from office". Trump was impeached by the house (twice), but the senate acquitted him (which means they didn't convict and remove him from office). Nevertheless, he was impeached.

Same for Bill Clinton.

All of which is tremendously significant to the plight of Ukraine right now, of course.

This is incorrect. Clinton WAS impeached. Both House and Senate voted to impeach. Impeachment and removal is a different matter. Clinton was not threatened with removal. And Trump was not impeached because there was not support for impeachment from the Senate. The whole thing was a politically motivated sham.

There is no such thing as half an impeachment.

Again: https://www.reference.com/world-view/many-votes-impeach-president-668fabbe9a3b6c64

wim

Wow. Words fail me. OK bud.

NeuM

@vasilymilovidov said:
I'm willing to exchange Putin for Trump by the way.

I’m sure Russia would benefit greatly from such a thing since they’d no doubt transition to a free market economy, but leaving Russia might be the better option.

NeuM

@sigma79 said:

@NeuM said:

@sigma79 said:
Just here for the nobel peace prize. Why not just turn these places that dont appear to be a nation or state now. Into tax havens with nice cars etc. Surely there wouldnt be conflict?

All countries should be tax havens. Then there would be no reason to hide one’s money elsewhere.

Ok NeuM. Not even sure what I ment tbh.

Well, if tax rates were reasonable everywhere then the money wouldn’t be moved elsewhere, right?

ExAsperis99

I like how every once in a while the reasonable facade slips and it's like a venomous libertarian robot from Westworld that's caught in a loop.

For the record, Trump was impeached twice.

vasilymilovidov

@NeuM said:

@vasilymilovidov said:
I'm willing to exchange Putin for Trump by the way.

I’m sure Russia would benefit greatly from such a thing since they’d no doubt transition to a free market economy, but leaving Russia might be the better option.

sorry, man, you're talking to a socialist here

[Deleted User]

@vasilymilovidov said:

@NeuM said:

@vasilymilovidov said:
I'm willing to exchange Putin for Trump by the way.

I’m sure Russia would benefit greatly from such a thing since they’d no doubt transition to a free market economy, but leaving Russia might be the better option.

sorry, man, you're talking to a socialist here

espiegel123

@NeuM said:

@wim said:
People often confuse "impeachment" with "conviction and removal from office". Trump was impeached by the house (twice), but the senate acquitted him (which means they didn't convict and remove him from office). Nevertheless, he was impeached.

Same for Bill Clinton.

All of which is tremendously significant to the plight of Ukraine right now, of course.

This is incorrect. Clinton WAS impeached. Both House and Senate voted to impeach. Impeachment and removal is a different matter. Clinton was not threatened with removal. And Trump was not impeached because there was not support for impeachment from the Senate. The whole thing was a politically motivated sham.

There is no such thing as half an impeachment.

Again: https://www.reference.com/world-view/many-votes-impeach-president-668fabbe9a3b6c64

You are confusing impeachment (which is the equivalent of being charged or indicted by the House) with being convicted of the charges for which one was impeached.

NeuM

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@wim said:
People often confuse "impeachment" with "conviction and removal from office". Trump was impeached by the house (twice), but the senate acquitted him (which means they didn't convict and remove him from office). Nevertheless, he was impeached.

Same for Bill Clinton.

All of which is tremendously significant to the plight of Ukraine right now, of course.

This is incorrect. Clinton WAS impeached. Both House and Senate voted to impeach. Impeachment and removal is a different matter. Clinton was not threatened with removal. And Trump was not impeached because there was not support for impeachment from the Senate. The whole thing was a politically motivated sham.

There is no such thing as half an impeachment.

Again: https://www.reference.com/world-view/many-votes-impeach-president-668fabbe9a3b6c64

You are confusing impeachment (which is the equivalent of being charged or indicted by the House) with being convicted of the charges for which one was impeached.

An impeachment is recognized upon a vote. It’s not an impeachment without the “OK” of both House and Senate. This is just a fact.

And keep in mind that impeachments are a POLITICAL process, not a legal one, such as an actual court proceeding. You can think of an impeachment like an “unpopularity contest”.