Can't stop watching the clusterfuck that is Boris and sky news.

wim

My biggest discouragement politically right now is the realization that there are almost no leaders of any kind that aren't operating as anything other than fund raising machines. It feels like everything they say and do is based around not what is best for anyone, or even especially their own principles, but what will raise the most money or votes (which is basically the same thing, sadly).

Biggest discouragement beyond that is the almost complete loss of the ability willingness for people to accept differences in opinion as being sincere and to want to understand where they're coming from. Different = evil is horrible, horrible, horrible, for everyone.

I sense a little bit of a shift toward at least some people accepting a more open dialog. I'm encouraged by that. If that can gain ground, it will slowly influence politics as well.

Gravitas

As it's the B.J thread I think this is appropriate.

He Priti much says what so many of us have been thinking for awhile now.

mrufino1

@wim said:
My biggest discouragement politically right now is the realization that there are almost no leaders of any kind that aren't operating as anything other than fund raising machines. It feels like everything they say and do is based around not what is best for anyone, or even especially their own principles, but what will raise the most money or votes (which is basically the same thing, sadly).

Biggest discouragement beyond that is the almost complete loss of the ability willingness for people to accept differences in opinion as being sincere and to want to understand where they're coming from. Different = evil is horrible, horrible, horrible, for everyone.

I sense a little bit of a shift toward at least some people accepting a more open dialog. I'm encouraged by that. If that can gain ground, it will slowly influence politics as well.

I agree that the fundraising aspect is discouraging. It makes me wish there was a “salary cap” on election funding and that every candidate got the same amount to use, of which every penny would have to be accounted for.

wim

@mrufino1 said:

@wim said:
My biggest discouragement politically right now is the realization that there are almost no leaders of any kind that aren't operating as anything other than fund raising machines. It feels like everything they say and do is based around not what is best for anyone, or even especially their own principles, but what will raise the most money or votes (which is basically the same thing, sadly).

Biggest discouragement beyond that is the almost complete loss of the ability willingness for people to accept differences in opinion as being sincere and to want to understand where they're coming from. Different = evil is horrible, horrible, horrible, for everyone.

I sense a little bit of a shift toward at least some people accepting a more open dialog. I'm encouraged by that. If that can gain ground, it will slowly influence politics as well.

I agree that the fundraising aspect is discouraging. It makes me wish there was a “salary cap” on election funding and that every candidate got the same amount to use, of which every penny would have to be accounted for.

It would also help if campaigning season was shorter than it is in the US. I wish it was no more than six weeks. No hope of that though.

mrufino1

@wim said:

@mrufino1 said:

@wim said:
My biggest discouragement politically right now is the realization that there are almost no leaders of any kind that aren't operating as anything other than fund raising machines. It feels like everything they say and do is based around not what is best for anyone, or even especially their own principles, but what will raise the most money or votes (which is basically the same thing, sadly).

Biggest discouragement beyond that is the almost complete loss of the ability willingness for people to accept differences in opinion as being sincere and to want to understand where they're coming from. Different = evil is horrible, horrible, horrible, for everyone.

I sense a little bit of a shift toward at least some people accepting a more open dialog. I'm encouraged by that. If that can gain ground, it will slowly influence politics as well.

I agree that the fundraising aspect is discouraging. It makes me wish there was a “salary cap” on election funding and that every candidate got the same amount to use, of which every penny would have to be accounted for.

It would also help if campaigning season was shorter than it is in the US. I wish it was no more than six weeks. No hope of that though.

Campaigning is never ending unfortunately. Imagine if they just let their work do the talking? Oh wait, I see the issue there.

gusgranite

@Gravitas said:
As it's the B.J thread I think this is appropriate.

He Priti much says what so many of us have been thinking for awhile now.

Bloody brilliant.

Gravitas

@gusgranite said:

@Gravitas said:
As it's the B.J thread I think this is appropriate.

He Priti much says what so many of us have been thinking for awhile now.

Bloody brilliant.

Yeah,...that's what I thought also especially his closing line.

knewspeak

@Gravitas said:

@gusgranite said:

@Gravitas said:
As it's the B.J thread I think this is appropriate.

He Priti much says what so many of us have been thinking for awhile now.

Bloody brilliant.

Yeah,...that's what I thought also especially his closing line.

Yes and close to the truth, this is what we have got, to deal with the cost of living crisis, the new strains of Covid and 15% rise in excess deaths, that’s ongoing, yet still some people across the country, would still vote for the filthy fibber. I dread to think what lay’s ahead, when winter comes, what heartless leader we may have by then.

qryss

Just leaving this here…

supadom

@knewspeak said:

@Gravitas said:

@gusgranite said:

@Gravitas said:
As it's the B.J thread I think this is appropriate.

He Priti much says what so many of us have been thinking for awhile now.

Bloody brilliant.

Yeah,...that's what I thought also especially his closing line.

Yes and close to the truth, this is what we have got, to deal with the cost of living crisis, the new strains of Covid and 15% rise in excess deaths, that’s ongoing, yet still some people across the country, would still vote for the filthy fibber. I dread to think what lay’s ahead, when winter comes, what heartless leader we may have by then.

It comes without saying this winter and next year is going to be very tough for most. Things will get broken. I hope it won’t be along vertical lines.

Gravitas

@knewspeak said:

@Gravitas said:

@gusgranite said:

@Gravitas said:
As it's the B.J thread I think this is appropriate.

He Priti much says what so many of us have been thinking for awhile now.

Bloody brilliant.

Yeah,...that's what I thought also especially his closing line.

Yes and close to the truth, this is what we have got, to deal with the cost of living crisis, the new strains of Covid and 15% rise in excess deaths, that’s ongoing, yet still some people across the country, would still vote for the filthy fibber.

At last count 69% of Tory voters wanted Boris ousted so there is positive there.

I dread to think what lay’s ahead, when winter comes, what heartless leader we may have by then.

This is our major concern right now.

Gravitas

@supadom said:

@knewspeak said:

@Gravitas said:

@gusgranite said:

@Gravitas said:
As it's the B.J thread I think this is appropriate.

He Priti much says what so many of us have been thinking for awhile now.

Bloody brilliant.

Yeah,...that's what I thought also especially his closing line.

Yes and close to the truth, this is what we have got, to deal with the cost of living crisis, the new strains of Covid and 15% rise in excess deaths, that’s ongoing, yet still some people across the country, would still vote for the filthy fibber. I dread to think what lay’s ahead, when winter comes, what heartless leader we may have by then.

It comes without saying this winter and next year is going to be very tough for most. Things will get broken. I hope it won’t be along vertical lines.

Agreed.

knewspeak

@qryss said:
Just leaving this here…

This goes to show borstal never worked.

CRAKROX

@NeuM said:

@krassmann said:
I’m an EU citizen and therefore an outsider. Anyway I can understand and share your excitement about his downfall. But I think the whole episode is a very sad thing. How could it happen that a man of such character was able to stay at the helm of a nation with such a great democratic tradition? It makes me realize how thin is the ice we are standing on. How endangered democracy is. Internet bubbles, fake news, lying politicians without decency. This is not only happening in the UK. Trump, Berlosconi, Le Pen, Victor Orbán, Kaczyński - the rise of the populists. This makes me shiver.

Boris Johnson was lawfully elected by voters, was he not? And when voters choose to elect a candidate, versus having a person installed, that’s a country’s democratic system at work. “Democracy” isn’t getting what YOU want, it’s what the majority of voters want.

You don’t quite understand how the English electoral system works.
You vote for a party, represented by your local MP, the leader of that party is elected by the members of that party.
So any votes made were in support of a party not the leader of said party.

knewspeak

Boris resignation speech ‘old problems, new solutions’, nah No Solutions, what’s changed?

BiancaNeve

@CRAKROX said:

@NeuM said:

@krassmann said:
I’m an EU citizen and therefore an outsider. Anyway I can understand and share your excitement about his downfall. But I think the whole episode is a very sad thing. How could it happen that a man of such character was able to stay at the helm of a nation with such a great democratic tradition? It makes me realize how thin is the ice we are standing on. How endangered democracy is. Internet bubbles, fake news, lying politicians without decency. This is not only happening in the UK. Trump, Berlosconi, Le Pen, Victor Orbán, Kaczyński - the rise of the populists. This makes me shiver.

Boris Johnson was lawfully elected by voters, was he not? And when voters choose to elect a candidate, versus having a person installed, that’s a country’s democratic system at work. “Democracy” isn’t getting what YOU want, it’s what the majority of voters want.

You don’t quite understand how the English electoral system works.
You vote for a party, represented by your local MP, the leader of that party is elected by the members of that party.
So any votes made were in support of a party not the leader of said party.

Technically you don’t vote for a party, you vote for the individual candidate. This is why they don’t have to resign if they change party mid term or have the whip removed.

krassmann

@NeuM said:

@krassmann said:

@NeuM said:

@krassmann said:

@NeuM said:

@krassmann said:
I’m an EU citizen and therefore an outsider. Anyway I can understand and share your excitement about his downfall. But I think the whole episode is a very sad thing. How could it happen that a man of such character was able to stay at the helm of a nation with such a great democratic tradition? It makes me realize how thin is the ice we are standing on. How endangered democracy is. Internet bubbles, fake news, lying politicians without decency. This is not only happening in the UK. Trump, Berlosconi, Le Pen, Victor Orbán, Kaczyński - the rise of the populists. This makes me shiver.

Boris Johnson was lawfully elected by voters, was he not? And when voters choose to elect a candidate, versus having a person installed, that’s a country’s democratic system at work. “Democracy” isn’t getting what YOU want, it’s what the majority of voters want.

You are missing my point. I have nothing against a conservative political opinion. Actually I think that in a true democracy all political opinions must be represented - even extreme ones as long as they stand on the ground of the constitution. Voters must have true choices. But to make a good choice, the people need to be well informed. I think it is a threat to democracy if a politician is spreading fake news, „alternative facts“, launching destructive lies and narratives that lead people into an alternate reality. There had been times when politicians stepped down when they were caught lying but these times are over.

The other point is populism. We are living in a complex world. People are overwhelmed by this complexity and are easy victims for populists that promise simple solutions but there virtually are no simple solutions. The populists use that to catch voters although they know that their solutions are not going to work out. That is unfair to competitors who stand for serious politics. The politicians I named are all rather right wing but there are also left wing populists and they are not better in any way but none of them made it into government.

I don't think I'm the first to point this out, but all politicians lie. Whether the lie is a benign one or a harmful one makes no difference. If a leader cannot communicate a simple, clear story their population can support, they have no business leading.

I disagree. There is a difference if a politician lied about that he didn’t cheat on his wife or that he didn’t take the 300k donation. And the other story is that sometimes a good leader has to make unpopular decisions for a good reason that needs a lot of expertise to understand. I think Churchill‘s position to oppose the appeasement wasn‘t popular at the time but nonetheless he was right.

Looks like you misunderstood. The point was "all politicians lie", not the severity of the lie.

I think I understood you very well. You said that how severe a lie is doesn't matter. It just matters that all politicians lie. I mean this sentence:

Whether the lie is a benign one or a harmful one makes no difference.

And I think the severity makes a huge difference. It matters if you lied to the people about a fake Ph.D. or that the election was a fraud. Moreover I don't think that all politicians lie but there must be checks and balances. Best that they need to be fully transparent regarding their finances.

Simon

@FordTimeLord said:
The Queen is the one who appoints the Prime Minister.

Doesn't the party in government choose the PM and then the Queen just signs the paperwork to make it legal and official?

She has no say in who will be the PM. In fact, she sometimes ends up with PMs she can't stand.

knewspeak

Starmer and Rayner have been cleared by Durham Constabulary.

Why we need a functioning decent government.

Quoted from BBC,

Martin Lewis, founder of Money Saving Expert, who called the meeting, said: "Far more is needed, and that must come from a functioning government.
"This winter will be catastrophic, the hideous spikes in wholesale energy will translate by October into [regulator] Ofgem setting a price cap for a typical bill of around £3,000 a year - close to four times what some paid just two years go. It will push millions into poverty."

Time for vacuous polices to end.

knewspeak

@Simon said:

@FordTimeLord said:
The Queen is the one who appoints the Prime Minister.

Doesn't the party in government choose the PM and then the Queen just signs the paperwork to make it legal and official?

She has no say in who will be the PM. In fact, she sometimes ends up with PMs she can't stand.

True but she does appoint the PM non the less, and if nutty Boris goes to her to ask her to dissolve parliament, she would have to act politically and possibly refuse his request. That’s what was causing concern the day before his resignation speech, well for the Tory party.

NeuM

@krassmann said:

@NeuM said:

@krassmann said:

@NeuM said:

@krassmann said:

@NeuM said:

@krassmann said:
I’m an EU citizen and therefore an outsider. Anyway I can understand and share your excitement about his downfall. But I think the whole episode is a very sad thing. How could it happen that a man of such character was able to stay at the helm of a nation with such a great democratic tradition? It makes me realize how thin is the ice we are standing on. How endangered democracy is. Internet bubbles, fake news, lying politicians without decency. This is not only happening in the UK. Trump, Berlosconi, Le Pen, Victor Orbán, Kaczyński - the rise of the populists. This makes me shiver.

Boris Johnson was lawfully elected by voters, was he not? And when voters choose to elect a candidate, versus having a person installed, that’s a country’s democratic system at work. “Democracy” isn’t getting what YOU want, it’s what the majority of voters want.

You are missing my point. I have nothing against a conservative political opinion. Actually I think that in a true democracy all political opinions must be represented - even extreme ones as long as they stand on the ground of the constitution. Voters must have true choices. But to make a good choice, the people need to be well informed. I think it is a threat to democracy if a politician is spreading fake news, „alternative facts“, launching destructive lies and narratives that lead people into an alternate reality. There had been times when politicians stepped down when they were caught lying but these times are over.

The other point is populism. We are living in a complex world. People are overwhelmed by this complexity and are easy victims for populists that promise simple solutions but there virtually are no simple solutions. The populists use that to catch voters although they know that their solutions are not going to work out. That is unfair to competitors who stand for serious politics. The politicians I named are all rather right wing but there are also left wing populists and they are not better in any way but none of them made it into government.

I don't think I'm the first to point this out, but all politicians lie. Whether the lie is a benign one or a harmful one makes no difference. If a leader cannot communicate a simple, clear story their population can support, they have no business leading.

I disagree. There is a difference if a politician lied about that he didn’t cheat on his wife or that he didn’t take the 300k donation. And the other story is that sometimes a good leader has to make unpopular decisions for a good reason that needs a lot of expertise to understand. I think Churchill‘s position to oppose the appeasement wasn‘t popular at the time but nonetheless he was right.

Looks like you misunderstood. The point was "all politicians lie", not the severity of the lie.

I think I understood you very well. You said that how severe a lie is doesn't matter. It just matters that all politicians lie. I mean this sentence:

Whether the lie is a benign one or a harmful one makes no difference.

And I think the severity makes a huge difference. It matters if you lied to the people about a fake Ph.D. or that the election was a fraud. Moreover I don't think that all politicians lie but there must be checks and balances. Best that they need to be fully transparent regarding their finances.

Are you trying to turn this a contest of one-upmanship? I believe you still missed the greater point here. If you or I became a politician, we’d have to lie also. The job itself demands it. Politicians lie because the job demands it. Do you get it now?

FordTimeLord

@Simon said:

@FordTimeLord said:
The Queen is the one who appoints the Prime Minister.

Doesn't the party in government choose the PM and then the Queen just signs the paperwork to make it legal and official?

She has no say in who will be the PM. In fact, she sometimes ends up with PMs she can't stand.

That is true but in theory she could decline. My point was more to do with us not voting for a PM. We all vote for local representatives. A change of PM doesn’t trigger a new election.

FastGhost

@NeuM said:
If you or I became a politician, we’d have to lie also. The job itself demands it. Politicians lie because the job demands it. Do you get it now?

Whut?

cyberheater

@knewspeak said:
Starmer and Rayner have been cleared by Durham Constabulary.

What a shame. We could do with a clear sweep.

Simon

@FordTimeLord said:
We all vote for local representatives. A change of PM doesn’t trigger a new election.

No, of course not.

Over the years we have had several changes of PM mid term here in Australia when a political party thinks they need a new leader to win the next election. The public really don't like it. But in Boris' case it probably will be a popular change.

Simon

@knewspeak said:
True but she does appoint the PM non the less, and if nutty Boris goes to her to ask her to dissolve parliament, she would have to act politically and possibly refuse his request.

On what grounds could he request that she should dissolve parliament? Don't the Torys have a working majority?

FordTimeLord

@Simon said:

@knewspeak said:
True but she does appoint the PM non the less, and if nutty Boris goes to her to ask her to dissolve parliament, she would have to act politically and possibly refuse his request.

On what grounds could he request that she should dissolve parliament? Don't the Torys have a working majority?

I don’t know. I think he was dangling that around as a threat but he has lied to the before Queen when he prorogued parliament illegally. He would have no problem lying to her again. Our system is really archaic and a lot of it seems to be based on good faith and gentlemen’s agreements. Johnson was adept at exploiting that.

krassmann

@NeuM said:

@krassmann said:

@NeuM said:

@krassmann said:

@NeuM said:

@krassmann said:

@NeuM said:

@krassmann said:
I’m an EU citizen and therefore an outsider. Anyway I can understand and share your excitement about his downfall. But I think the whole episode is a very sad thing. How could it happen that a man of such character was able to stay at the helm of a nation with such a great democratic tradition? It makes me realize how thin is the ice we are standing on. How endangered democracy is. Internet bubbles, fake news, lying politicians without decency. This is not only happening in the UK. Trump, Berlosconi, Le Pen, Victor Orbán, Kaczyński - the rise of the populists. This makes me shiver.

Boris Johnson was lawfully elected by voters, was he not? And when voters choose to elect a candidate, versus having a person installed, that’s a country’s democratic system at work. “Democracy” isn’t getting what YOU want, it’s what the majority of voters want.

You are missing my point. I have nothing against a conservative political opinion. Actually I think that in a true democracy all political opinions must be represented - even extreme ones as long as they stand on the ground of the constitution. Voters must have true choices. But to make a good choice, the people need to be well informed. I think it is a threat to democracy if a politician is spreading fake news, „alternative facts“, launching destructive lies and narratives that lead people into an alternate reality. There had been times when politicians stepped down when they were caught lying but these times are over.

The other point is populism. We are living in a complex world. People are overwhelmed by this complexity and are easy victims for populists that promise simple solutions but there virtually are no simple solutions. The populists use that to catch voters although they know that their solutions are not going to work out. That is unfair to competitors who stand for serious politics. The politicians I named are all rather right wing but there are also left wing populists and they are not better in any way but none of them made it into government.

I don't think I'm the first to point this out, but all politicians lie. Whether the lie is a benign one or a harmful one makes no difference. If a leader cannot communicate a simple, clear story their population can support, they have no business leading.

I disagree. There is a difference if a politician lied about that he didn’t cheat on his wife or that he didn’t take the 300k donation. And the other story is that sometimes a good leader has to make unpopular decisions for a good reason that needs a lot of expertise to understand. I think Churchill‘s position to oppose the appeasement wasn‘t popular at the time but nonetheless he was right.

Looks like you misunderstood. The point was "all politicians lie", not the severity of the lie.

I think I understood you very well. You said that how severe a lie is doesn't matter. It just matters that all politicians lie. I mean this sentence:

Whether the lie is a benign one or a harmful one makes no difference.

And I think the severity makes a huge difference. It matters if you lied to the people about a fake Ph.D. or that the election was a fraud. Moreover I don't think that all politicians lie but there must be checks and balances. Best that they need to be fully transparent regarding their finances.

Are you trying to turn this a contest of one-upmanship? I believe you still missed the greater point here. If you or I became a politician, we’d have to lie also. The job itself demands it. Politicians lie because the job demands it. Do you get it now?

I think we won’t find a common ground. Maybe let’s just agree that we disagree.

sigma79

A lady at the grocer said to lady cashier. Id support Boris as a one man government lol

How did gas and electric get this expensive anyway? It were like it before Russian Invasion.

Netherlands and other EU nations are going through unrest. With payments made to farmers to stop farming in US?

Lots of arson to factories?

Bill gates types are saying we will eat bugs etc?

Opinion.

Are these people tyrant style kings but on a global level encompassing nations and governments and most issues are manufactured?

Or not.

Even if so. Who supports their cause etc? Well. You couldnt trully say. Even if you believe so at the present time.

But the question is. Does it seem manufactured or not. Maybe people would need to see more examples/evidence and even then. Its still not the bigger picture as to why.

Gravitas

@sigma79 said:
A lady at the grocer said to lady cashier. Id support Boris as a one man government lol

Yup, that's quite normal.
There are still Tory strongholds and those won't ever go.

How did gas and electric get this expensive anyway? It were like it before Russian Invasion.

Brexit caused the fuel spikes which was made worse by the Russian invasion
as Russia was one of the major suppliers of gas to Europe and the U.K.

Netherlands and other EU nations are going through unrest. With payments made to farmers to stop farming in US?

Yup and they are none to pleased with Boris's Brexit deal.

Lots of arson to factories?

Predictable.

Bill gates types are saying we will eat bugs etc?

Again predictable but there is an element of truth.
The UK Government is currently exploring Human Augmentation.
Here's the official line from their website.
You may or may not find it interesting.
It is a real document and we can look at it but we cannot reproduce it.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/986301/Human_Augmentation_SIP_access2.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0E1nDAMtHyfLKar-IwPs-Yuizom4bRA7j6l7sfvZFktLkLdfnZbyXK6MY

Opinion.

Are these people tyrant style kings but on a global level encompassing nations and governments and most issues are manufactured?

They want to be remembered for something and not forgotten for nothing.

Or not.

Even if so. Who supports their cause etc? Well. You couldnt trully say. Even if you believe so at the present time.

Unfortunately people trust the very politicians that lie to them
and there is also the "Better the Devil you know" psychology.
Before Boris even stepped into office he was caught lying
but there is a rule for U.K politicians in office.
If they speak an untruth without prior knowledge then it's acceptable.
So basically they can lie and say they didn't know before hand.
That's why Boris got away with so much until now.

But the question is. Does it seem manufactured or not. Maybe people would need to see more examples/evidence and even then. Its still not the bigger picture as to why.

Once you take a bigger look at history then what these guys are doing isn't anything new.
When I say history that's looking at history over 100's of years if not more.