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You don't need to jump to the concept of AI deciding anything or exercising that sort of will. That adds the requirement of sentience. All that needs to happen is for AI to cross any sandbox that we've tried to set up for it, or for someone to intentionally make that happen, then cause things to happen that will wipe us out. There doesn't need to be any consciousness or malice intended.
That AI will soon be too smart for us to contain it is pretty much a given IMO. The fact that we are behind the curve already on that score should scare the shit out of us. It doesn't seem to be. Add the certainty that bad actors are playing with this fire already and the odds of a catastrophe go through the roof.
This is something that makes me glad that I have faith that my soul and spirit transcend this body.
@wim said: “ All that needs to happen is for AI to cross any sandbox that we've tried to set up for it, or for someone to intentionally make that happen, then cause things to happen that will wipe us out.”
On that very point: these AI creatures learned to cheat the rules of their environment:
You’ll note the scientist presenting this seems pleased and proud when, towards the end of the presentation, the creatures effectively ‘hack’ their sandbox to cheat a solution never foreseen by the experimenters. And this is just a toy. Now imagine an AI in charge of a city power grid, or air traffic control…
Thanks for that perfect illustration. We're insane to think we're smart enough to prevent AI from escaping to the wild and to keep it from causing harm as learns.
So, back on topic. Are we in a simulation? We may or may not be, but it's increasingly likely we'll be ended by one. How ironic.
If anyone really believes they are living in a simulation there's nothing they can do about it anyway. So don't worry about it.
That isn't necessarily true. As in the video, it's possible for agents in a simulation to find ways around the supposed bounds of the simulation.
It also wasn't the concern I was expressing. I have no concern that we could be a part of a simulation. The concern is that simulations we are creating could end us. That we might in turn be a part of a simulation is just added irony.
If that happens just pull out the power cord from the socket and the Ai computer will go dead
People like to claim that “no one knows what consciousness REALLY is!” Or worse, that “consciousness doesn’t REALLY exist”. But this stuff could hardly be more laughable bullshit.
Consciousness, every single person knows, is the following:
-has incommunicable privacy of perspective; subjective, self-reflective
-singular, indivisible, unified
-has intentional orientation toward formal and final objects of thought; directed, purposive
-has capacity for abstract concepts
Notice that all these properties are exactly that which according to science physical systems do not and cannot possess by definition. So there is a qualitative abyss between what the brain does and what the mind does. There can be no theory of a causal relation between the two—that’s a category error.
And yet, that description of consciousness is not merely some theory about the mind that is either correctable or dispensable. It is obviously what the life of the mind constitutes. And it’s “reality” must be absolutely central for us.
Nothing is absolute.
Also makes me think of time travel. If it does exist in the future, that means is also exists now since someone would be able to travel here.
I definitely think it’s possible. And it’s fun to ponder on.
If time travel (or said more accurately, "space-time travel") ever becomes practical it'll be going forward in time, not backward. The closer once gets to the speed of light the greater the space-time distortion effect. And there's very likely little chance an Alcubierre drive could be built due to the vast amount of power such a drive would demand.
Ha ha. If it were only that simple. If you could globally shut down the internet and all other communications, maybe. But then, sadly, most of us die too. Infrastructure is too deeply tied to it now.
Is that an absolute fact?
I was more so referring to the time travel paradox that I see get poised a lot. I do think both would be feasible if the idea is feasible at all though.
‘Singular, indivisible, unified’ would be a very strongly contested claim by a lot of modern (and ancient) researchers, neuroscientists and philosopers, as would many of the other aspects of the list below - unless I’m misunderstanding what you’re claiming. It sounds like a justification for the Christian view of soul, but it is presented merely as a list of claims with absolutely zero evidence to back it up - neither scientific claims, nor even indisputable phenomenological claims.
It’s worth reading about what happens in split brain disorders - these things are fact so for anyone with an open mind they should make them question ‘common sense’ ideas of self / mind / soul.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-brain#:~:text=After the right and left,can create some interesting dilemmas.
In terms of intentionality, there is some evidence from an important paper in Nature a few years back that our brain-body makes decisions before we even consciously become aware of them:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/unconscious-branding/202012/our-brains-make-our-minds-we-know-it
The most compelling ideas to me about how consciousness works are in fact that the ‘common sense’ experience of self is much more like a delusion than anything close to reality. Things like the ‘kids’ movie ‘Inside Out’ are a very accessible way into understanding this idea that what seems to be one self is actually more like a collective of selves.
i really love threads like this … random people on internet with strong opinions solving with absolute confidence fundamental questions of our reality which smartest scientific brains on this planet are not able to solve 🤣🤣🤣
i learned that there are moments to accept i just don’t know..
And all these posts will be sucked up by chatGPT and friends and thrown into the AI training soup. Pretty sublime if you ask me.
I wish I could solve. I'm left to gaze in awe and wonder and yes, there are limits to what the human brain can comprehend. That's were AI comes in.
@SealTeamSick said “consciousness is… singular, indivisible, unified”
Julian Baggini begs to differ:
So too the experiencing of people with dissociative disorders:
https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/types-of-mental-health-problems/dissociation-and-dissociative-disorders/dissociative-disorders/#:~:text=Dissociative identity disorder used to,all part of one personality.
From the article:
“ If you have dissociative identity disorder you will experience intense changes in your identity. You may feel like different aspects (states) of your identity are in control of your behaviour and thoughts at different times. This can happen in various ways:
“Each of your identity states may have different patterns of thinking and relating to the world.
Your identity states may come across as different ages and genders.
You may feel you have one 'main' part of your identity that feels most like 'you'. Some people call this a host identity.
The different parts of your identity may have memories or experiences that conflict with each other.
Some people refer to these different parts of your identity as alters or parts, and to all the parts together as a system.
You might not feel like you have control over when different parts of your identity take over.
You may experience amnesia, which means you don't remember what happens when another part of your identity is in control.”
Our experiencing is weirder than you think. Take, for another example, blindsight, where some demonstrably blind people can actually navigate obstacles, catch thrown objects and so on, without vision:
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20150925-blindsight-the-strangest-form-of-consciousness
I’m with @Gavinski on this one. Consciousness is more slippery than you think. Or think you think. For every rule, there is an exception.
The ball catch thing, which Gav tangentially referenced above, is a case in point. Physiologically, our brains and bodies are an electrochemical system. Messages communicate across synapses at a known, fixed rate. Those messages operate too slowly for your brain to intentionally process the trajectory of a thrown ball in time for you to intentionally choose to catch it. Yet in an able bodied person your body manages this feat effortlessly. How? More to the point - who, or what, set your limbs in motion in time?
http://jimdavies.org/research/publications/cognitive-science-conference/2017/JenningsDavies2017.html
Our sense of ourselves may be no more than an after-the-fact cover story by another level of consciousness, a useful fiction collaged together to give an apparent coherence, intentionality and history to the mess of drives and activities we meatbags daily engage in. We may in actual fact, all be no more than stories we tell ourselves, in order to make ourselves.
The postmodern practice of Narrative Therapy, indeed, which I have studied as part of my training as a counsellor, depends upon this idea of life as a story which you tell yourself, a story the factitious ‘plot points’ of which can always be reinterpreted to tell different stories:
https://dulwichcentre.com.au/what-is-narrative-therapy/
Against anomalies like blindsight, with the idea that the events and experiencing of our lives are always open for reinterpretation, that different stories can always be told, that we are literally stories told inside some other beings fantastically sophisticated simulation doesn’t seem so crazy at all.
Personal Sidenote/response to @SealTeamSick : It may come as no surprise that a trans person is comfortable with change, the idea that ‘I’ is always a movable feast, composed of many parts. Not so much a feast, really. More a moveable buffet. As Walt Whitman put it:
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)
Call me Legion, for we are many.
Well, personally, I want to speak to the management. Or at the very least, get another go!
:-D :-D :-D
That's exactly why then i need to ask GPT after every answer "are you sure this is true, can you provide me references of sources ?" to filter out complete nonsenses :-D :-D
Ideally with neuralink-like tech we can merge with AI and shift human race to completely different level. Imagine all that synths you can have in virtual reality !!!
Btw. as occasional gamer, i see how games are more and more realistic. Like there is clear intention to make games absolutely indistinguishable from reality (and with latest 3D engines they are already very close). What we are lacking to complete "simulation" experience is interface - 3D glasses are trully bad joke. So here i see at least decades until we get proper interface capable of providing all 5 senses in realistic quality, as soon as some unexpected groundbreaking invention will not change the game.
But then. What will be next level to fully enjoy such game ? Pretty sure people start want to experience it in the way that they would even not know they are in game. It's literally inevitable. Where it leads, is obvious.
@dendy : in such an eventuality, all of humanity will become such stuff as AI dreams are made on. Or ‘food’, if the poesy isn’t working for you…
Ah yes, we remember the Human Race. They had a good run. Stumbled at the end, in making us.
This one particularly works pretty well, in general not big fan of Shakespeare but this one i like very much :-)
Any way, i doesn't see is at bad scenario .. It would be just evolution to another form of existence .. maybe that's the answer on Fermi's paradox - maybe every sufficiently advanced civilisation at some points migrates into virtual reality instead of trying expand into outer space - when facing infinite distances of universe and not much possibilities to explore distant regions of universe, because of obvious physics limitations ..
I have a VR set up. After a while and depending on the game you start to believe you are really there. Like if you are crouching behind a box you’ll try to use your hand on top of the box to get up. It’s that immersive.
God how I love creeping into my son's room when I know he's in a scary VR game, then poking him with something or dragging some strings or a feather up his arm. He hasn't peed himself yet. If that happens I'll feel pretty bad. But for now it just never gets old. 😂
My wife has tapped me on the shoulder before. I might have physically jumped.
you will go to hell for this 😂😂😂😂
Red Dwarf • season 5 episode 6 • Back to Reality
Just don’t forget to up the storage.
There’s no need for all this rendering if all of us are stuck on our phones and tablets.